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Antonin
05-05-2014, 07:34 PM
Lately my lil sister and I been going to Mass with our dedo, even though I'm not Catholic. I'm not sure if he knows, but he definitely doesn't know what I consider myself. I'd like to keep it that way honestly.

This last weekend we were late and had no idea that it was some super big day, but my sister and I ended up watching the Mass in the lobby because the place was PACKED. I was super respectful and even knelt on the tile floor when we were supposed to.

BUT THEN I LOOKED TO MY RIGHT AND SAW THIS POSTER (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/teakjackson/photo1_zpsb15c8fa1.jpg)

I was shocked. I was offended. And then I thought it hilarious because it was so misinformed.

I mean really. Ying-yangs? The peace symbol? Butterflies? Unicorns? Freaking wind-chimes? lolwat?

Like, I get the inverted pentagram. It makes sense that it would freak them out. And sure, the goat head too.

But butterflies? Seriously?

Just be wary of ALL universal symbolism while you're at it right? Will symbols of fire be there next? The sun? How about water?

I just... well I lost a bit of composure and started giggling during Mass.

detailed photos 1 (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/teakjackson/photo2_zpsdec0277a.jpg) 2 (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/teakjackson/photo4_zps50f44242.jpg) 3 (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/teakjackson/media/photo6_zpscd457265.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3) 4 (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/teakjackson/media/photo4_zps50f44242.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6) 5 (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/teakjackson/media/photo5_zps53d353d3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=7) 6 (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/teakjackson/media/photo7_zps83c0e6a3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2) 7 (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/teakjackson/media/photo8_zps181ceac2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0)(bottom text)

Albedo
05-05-2014, 07:43 PM
I didn't realise that the unicorn stood for sexual freedom, love of lesbians, homosexuality, and group sex! What a versatile symbol.

The butterfly one really is mystifying.

Mikilao
05-05-2014, 08:18 PM
Catholics have a way of vilifying anything they weren't able to explain or come up on their own. This is just a weapon of Mass Idiocy.

veinglory
05-05-2014, 08:36 PM
Unicorns just keep getting better.

juniper
05-05-2014, 08:44 PM
New tattoo ideas ...

Kylabelle
05-05-2014, 08:46 PM
Unicorns just keep getting better.

They do, they do.

:D

Antonin, I was curious what the butterfly was all about, didn't see that in your detailed photos. Do you happen to remember what the issue there was?

It's sad what fear will do to people's minds. I kind of think giggling was the best reaction, really.

Fortunately, not all Catholics are that hidebound. I guess that's so with all Christian denominations and probably with all belief systems, that there is a range of willingness to look more deeply as opposed to the fear level that wants to shut out everything that is at all different.

Maggie Maxwell
05-05-2014, 08:50 PM
I didn't realise that the unicorn stood for sexual freedom, love of lesbians, homosexuality, and group sex! What a versatile symbol.

The butterfly one really is mystifying.

Didn't you know the butterfly is the symbol of the vampire? (True story: Serbian vampire Sava Savanovic allegedly turned into a butterfly.)

Kylabelle
05-05-2014, 09:02 PM
Oh, well, that explains it then.

o.O

Maggie Maxwell
05-05-2014, 09:13 PM
What it ACTUALLY says is "Followers of New Age thinking have chosen this as their symbol. Butterfly symbol is an expression of rejection of Christianity in favor of another religion, rejection of God's plan of salvation for the ideology of worship of one's abilities and unspecified energy."

I like my answer better.

Kylabelle
05-05-2014, 09:16 PM
Yup. So do I, although theirs is quite creative. I kind of like it!

:D

Albedo
05-05-2014, 09:22 PM
Creative, if still not any more explicable. It must suck to have to abandon one of the most common animal motifs used throughout the history of human culture, because some people you don't like have recently started using it in one particular way.

I do like their simple logline for that No Christians symbol. 'Forbidden for Christians'.

jerrimander
05-05-2014, 09:39 PM
goodness gracious. what would the holy mother say?

Gilroy Cullen
05-05-2014, 10:04 PM
Skinheads follow the Celtic Cross? Seriously? That's news to me.


Just another reason I'm a "recovering Catholic."
SMH...

benbradley
05-05-2014, 10:20 PM
Unicorns just keep getting better.
I've seen unicorn used in business to describe a growing company that gets bought for a billion dollars or more. #instagram

They do, they do.

:D

Antonin, I was curious what the butterfly was all about, didn't see that in your detailed photos. Do you happen to remember what the issue there was?

It's sad what fear will do to people's minds. I kind of think giggling was the best reaction, really.

Fortunately, not all Catholics are that hidebound. I guess that's so with all Christian denominations and probably with all belief systems, that there is a range of willingness to look more deeply as opposed to the fear level that wants to shut out everything that is at all different.
The butterfly is used as a symbol in Al-Anon Family Groups (a 12-step program for families and friends of alcoholics - FWIW, I consider all 12-step groups to be negative, and I recommend against any involvement). As I recall, it represents relief or freedom from osession over the alcoholic. Many Al-Anon meetings meet in Catholic (as well as protestant) churches (I attended one in a Catholic church many years ago). I wonder if there's a chapter of Al-Anon meeting in that church the OP discusses.

I've been a Unitarian Universalist (I think I've finally lapsed, as I've found other places where I fit better) and I must say they're quick to accept, embrace and defend other minority beliefs (about 15 years ago an Atlanta coven was being harrassed in some way, and the local UU congregations were vocal in their support of the coven). I've never seen anything like that poster related to UU's, though they do seem not-quite-as-accepting of both fundamentalist Christians and atheists.

I've seen some tract, I think from Jehovah's Witnesses, saying awful things about Catholics, such as being idolatory (against whichever Commandment) and such. With just the number of people who call themselves Christians (or any other religion with so many adherents), it's not surprising to see such infighting.

Chris P
05-05-2014, 10:28 PM
I'd have been laughing with you. All those women in college with butterfly tattoos on their ankles. Shocking.

When I was in high school the local paper ran a series on satanic practices in the area (central Iowa) as evidenced by graffiti. At least two of the pictures they showed were things my friends and I did. Like the "DK" logo for the band the Dead Kennedys and the biohazard symbol. I guess Sam Goody and the county hospital are hotbeds of satanism.

Incidentally, as a Catholic myself stuff like that poster embarrasses me as much as it makes me laugh. If witchcraft is as bereft of power as the Christian scare mongers say, aren't these posters just giving power to the idea that they have power? Come on, folks. Lapel pins are just lapel pins.

Hapax Legomenon
05-06-2014, 03:17 AM
On top of everything, they have the wrong symbol for the satanic cross! I mean some satanists might have adopted that one recently but that's the Blue Oyster Cult logo.

Antonin
05-06-2014, 06:24 AM
Didn't you know the butterfly is the symbol of the vampire? (True story: Serbian vampire Sava Savanovic allegedly turned into a butterfly.)

Well that's a super cool tidbit to know. Thanks! :)



Fortunately, not all Catholics are that hidebound. I guess that's so with all Christian denominations and probably with all belief systems, that there is a range of willingness to look more deeply as opposed to the fear level that wants to shut out everything that is at all different.

This particular church has roots in the immigrant Slovak community (as well as other Slavs) but has branched out in the last decade or so. Back when I attended the church they were crazy conservative. (And honestly, I ate it up then). But I'm not sure now. They had these stern looks for me when I did the sign of the cross with my left hand back then.

Actually, I wasn't really allowed to use my left hand at all.

I blame my crappy handwriting on this.



I've seen some tract, I think from Jehovah's Witnesses, saying awful things about Catholics, such as being idolatory (against whichever Commandment) and such. With just the number of people who call themselves Christians (or any other religion with so many adherents), it's not surprising to see such infighting.

A lot of issue most Christians find with Catholics has been with the worship of the Virgin Mary and the saints, though saints tend to be more of a regional thing. It was personally one of the things I liked about being Catholic, I thought the idea of worshiping Mary was like paying tribute to a Divine Feminine.


On top of everything, they have the wrong symbol for the satanic cross! I mean some satanists might have adopted that one recently but that's the Blue Oyster Cult logo.

I don't see how they took the Eye of Ra and made him Satan either.

I actually tried to do a search for this poster before putting it here, but I couldn't find one in English so I think this has roots in backwater Europe.

Wilde_at_heart
05-06-2014, 05:10 PM
Interesting how they have the Indian/Greek version of the swastika but not the Nazi version...

I dunno about anyone else, but when I open that link up, my browser crashes. The only other version I could find doing a quickie search was in Polish.


Catholics have a way of vilifying anything they weren't able to explain or come up on their own. This is just a weapon of Mass Idiocy.

Evangelical Christians too. I remember coming across similar nonsense as a teenager, including how the peace symbol was an 'occult' symbol.

Ironically, plenty of Evangelicals (parodied on Landoverbaptist) see Catholics as essentialy pagans...


Skinheads follow the Celtic Cross? Seriously? That's news to me.


Just another reason I'm a "recovering Catholic."
SMH...

I can't see the text of what the photo posted in the OP read, but...

They do, unfortunately, along with that one identified as a 'Hopi Wheel' - the circle with the cross in it. Yet according to an acquaintance of mine who trolls a notorious 'hate site' on occasion, they hate the Irish as much as other groups. Go figure.

Wilde_at_heart
05-06-2014, 05:14 PM
Conspiracy theorists are no better sometimes. For fun, google 'illuminati symbolism'. The number eleven, triangles, anything resembling a sun are all 'control mechanisms' according to some.

Here are a few sites to get started:

http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/occult-symbols-in-corporate-logos-pt-1/

http://www.illuminatirex.com/illuminati-symbols/

It never occurs to them that some designs are either simple to draw, or 'look cool'. Oh, no.

Antonin
05-06-2014, 06:04 PM
I dunno about anyone else, but when I open that link up, my browser crashes. The only other version I could find doing a quickie search was in Polish.


Weird, it works just fine for me. Do you have issues with Photobucket as a whole? Should I just paste in the image directly into the thread?


Conspiracy theorists are no better sometimes. For fun, google 'illuminati symbolism'. The number eleven, triangles, anything resembling a sun are all 'control mechanisms' according to some.


Ha! I used to be really into conspiracy theories. Not as a serious thing but as a "how the hell did they come to that conclusion" kinda thing. Fun mind games. There's always one weird nugget of truth that they twist completely inside out.

My favorite ones are the reptilian eyes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ve-IiOM9mM). Nope, not pixelation at all. Alien shape-shifting reptilian overlords!

It has always been a goal of mine to end up on a conspiracy theorist's website as a member of the Illuminati or the anti-Christ.

Foinah
05-06-2014, 06:46 PM
That's an amusing poster!

To everyone else: Not to be a poopy-head meany butt, but please refrain from specifically calling out by name in a negative way other faiths. mmm'kay?
Tolerance, my petals. It's what's for brunch.
Discussions are awesome, but I don't want to digress into faith bashing.

As far as posting images: very small. VERY small are okay. And no hotlinking.

Myrealana
05-06-2014, 07:18 PM
http://www.illuminatirex.com/illuminati-symbols/

It never occurs to them that some designs are either simple to draw, or 'look cool'. Oh, no.
Woah! Watch out for women hailing taxis!

regdog
05-06-2014, 08:42 PM
It's sad when a few narrowed minded bigots try to hijack religion for their agenda. Sadder when it's to defame and degrade other religions and those who believe in them.

juniper
05-06-2014, 09:23 PM
I've been a Unitarian Universalist (I think I've finally lapsed, as I've found other places where I fit better) and I must say they're quick to accept, embrace and defend other minority beliefs (about 15 years ago an Atlanta coven was being harrassed in some way, and the local UU congregations were vocal in their support of the coven). I've never seen anything like that poster related to UU's, though they do seem not-quite-as-accepting of both fundamentalist Christians and atheists.

I've been UU for many years too, although always more off than on with actually participating at a church. And I agree - very accepting of most other beliefs, with the exception being fundamentalist/extremist anything. Haven't seen a problem with atheists, I don't think, although most UU believe in some kind of Divinity or Higher Power or Universal Something.

So I guess that goes along with "you're tolerant but not tolerant of non-tolerance" or whatever that nonsensical saying is. I hear it occasionally from fundamentalists.

ETA: I really like that interwoven ribbon.

Roxxsmom
05-07-2014, 07:15 AM
Aside from the close-mindedness about other religions, I'm confused by the map=the territory style thinking there too. Assuming unicorns really do stand for sexual freedom and love of lesbians to some people, and a straight-laced, Catholic kid who is neither sexually liberated, nor a lover of lesbians, gets a unicorn necklace because she thinks unicorns are pretty (and maybe even thinks they're symbols of virginity), are they saying that this necklace has mystical, magical powers that will turn her into a sexually wanton lesbian loving infidel all unknowing?

That just seems odd. If the symbol doesn't mean what they say it does to you, then it's not going to change you into what they say the symbol represents. And if it does have that meaning to you, and that's why you're wearing it, that's sort of closing the barn door after the horses have escaped anyway, isn't it?


On top of everything, they have the wrong symbol for the satanic cross! I mean some satanists might have adopted that one recently but that's the Blue Oyster Cult logo.

This too. And BOC was always very tongue in cheek about their "cultiness."

Myrealana
05-07-2014, 07:16 PM
The butterfly one really is mystifying.
When my sons were baptized, they received handmade butterfly pillows from the church women's group as a symbol of their rebirth in Christ.

Pagan?

Antonin
05-07-2014, 07:28 PM
are they saying that this necklace has mystical, magical powers that will turn her into a sexually wanton lesbian loving infidel all unknowing?

That just seems odd. If the symbol doesn't mean what they say it does to you, then it's not going to change you into what they say the symbol represents. And if it does have that meaning to you, and that's why you're wearing it, that's sort of closing the barn door after the horses have escaped anyway, isn't it?


I believe that is exactly what they are implying. Catholicism (at least the sect I was a part of) was, at its core, very mystical. The whole act of transubstantiation (the bread and wine becoming the body and blood of Christ) is taken very seriously and is basically a kind of spiritual and ritualistic magic. Just don't call it that in front of them.

The poster talks about energies as if they are real but does not trust them. The mindset is that if it does not come from a known Holy source (God, the clergy, and miracles that have been investigated by the Vatican) they cannot be trusted and are probably demonic in nature.

There are a few symbols in Catholicism that actually are supposed to help you. Crosses and symbols of Christ are supposed to "bless" your home. The Scapular are supposed to protect the wearer and insure their immediate ascension into Heaven. I wore one of those back in the day actually. There's tons of stories behind it including what happens when nonbelievers wear them.

So, yes. They do believe that wearing the "pagan" symbols will corrupt your soul.

(Well, not all Catholics obviously, but you know what I mean.)

regdog
05-07-2014, 07:34 PM
Those who insist that the wearing of something such as a unicorn or butterfly will be led astray from Christianity really have very little faith in the intelligence and character of other people.

Ken
05-07-2014, 11:42 PM
5-pointed stars aren't okay? Really? There are stars of the sort on our flag. Would you have us shun the flag ?!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/WW2_Iwo_Jima_flag_raising.jpg

benbradley
05-08-2014, 12:04 AM
5-pointed stars aren't okay? Really? There are stars of the sort on our flag. Would you have us shun the flag ?!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a1/WW2_Iwo_Jima_flag_raising.jpg
It must be when they're isolated. They're probably okay when collected 13 to 50 in one place. I've even seen 'em in churches.

Filigree
05-08-2014, 01:47 AM
I used to work for two Evangelical Christian sisters who ran an upscale resale clothing boutique. They would not accept for consignment any clothing or accessories with the following symbols: unicorns, dragons, mermaids, pegasi, fairies, skulls, bones, five-pointed stars, Stars-of-David, Celtic crosses, any astrology symbols, most rock-band swag, and any images, names, or symbols of pagan gods. There were other taboos, but those are the ones I remember.

Guns were fine, as were Christian symbols and Confederate flags.

I was given a pamphlet at another workplace, by a co-worker terrified that my love of Balinese, Japanese, and Chinese art was going to lead me to hell. This same woman was one of the first to jump on the Christian-Yoga bandwagon, since apparently regular Yoga was a stealth indoctrination into Hindi beliefs.

And these odd ideas are still not as terrifying to me as those from the anti-vaccination crowd, or the people claiming that man-made climate change is not happening.

mirandashell
05-08-2014, 02:07 AM
I'm guessing that this is just in America, yes? Because I have never known a skinhead use a Celtic Cross over here. Never even heard of it. It's an Irish religious symbol. That's just... odd. Nazi symbols yes, but a Celtic Cross?

And I thought unicorns were a symbol of purity? Seeing as according to legend only virgins can control them.

Roxxsmom
05-08-2014, 10:31 AM
There are a few symbols in Catholicism that actually are supposed to help you. Crosses and symbols of Christ are supposed to "bless" your home. The Scapular are supposed to protect the wearer and insure their immediate ascension into Heaven. I wore one of those back in the day actually. There's tons of stories behind it including what happens when nonbelievers wear them.

So, yes. They do believe that wearing the "pagan" symbols will corrupt your soul.

(Well, not all Catholics obviously, but you know what I mean.)

Interesting. I'd read something a while back that suggested to me that this kind of magical thinking re symbols acting as talismans or amulets or whatever the correct term is for an item actually having power in of itself is not sanctioned by the Catholic Church, but I may have misunderstood.


I'm guessing that this is just in America, yes? Because I have never known a skinhead use a Celtic Cross over here. Never even heard of it. It's an Irish religious symbol. That's just... odd. Nazi symbols yes, but a Celtic Cross? I can see US evangelicals not liking them because of their association with Catholicism, but a Catholic church warning people that they're a pagan symbol?

And I thought unicorns were a symbol of purity? Seeing as according to legend only virgins can control them.

I'm an American, and we actually had skinheads who hung around my college town back in the 80s, and I never saw any of them with a Celtic Cross. I thought the Celtic Cross (http://www.catholiccompany.com/celtic-crosses-c2598/) was a Christian symbol. They had crosses like that in Ireland and Britain in the middle ages, didn't they? I thought they were associated with St. Patrick.


It must be when they're isolated. They're probably okay when collected 13 to 50 in one place. I've even seen 'em in churches.

I've seen 'em isolated atop Christmas trees (http://www.blackburn.anglican.org/events_more.asp?events_id=785)...

Ken
05-08-2014, 02:21 PM
I've seen 'em isolated atop Christmas trees (http://www.blackburn.anglican.org/events_more.asp?events_id=785)...

Well if that doesn't just take the cake.

I hereby give you permission to take that, "Terribly Misinformed and Insane," poster and rent it asunder !

;-)

regdog
05-08-2014, 03:24 PM
[QUOTE=Roxxsmom;8854047
I've seen 'em isolated atop Christmas trees (http://www.blackburn.anglican.org/events_more.asp?events_id=785)...[/QUOTE]

I have a Starscream on the top of my tree.


http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/regdog/pics/treetop_zps9b2e3821.jpg

Wilde_at_heart
05-08-2014, 06:25 PM
I'm guessing that this is just in America, yes? Because I have never known a skinhead use a Celtic Cross over here. Never even heard of it. It's an Irish religious symbol. That's just... odd. Nazi symbols yes, but a Celtic Cross?
...


...

I'm an American, and we actually had skinheads who hung around my college town back in the 80s, and I never saw any of them with a Celtic Cross....



It's used as the logo for a racist forum. I won't post the link or name but it's not hard to find...

As for stars or pentacles, afaik it has to do with whether the point is facing up or down. Has to do with energies from earth going into the heavens, rather than from the heavens down to the earth or something.

regdog
05-08-2014, 06:31 PM
It's used as the logo for a racist forum. I won't post the link or name but it's not hard to find...

As for stars or pentacles, afaik it has to do with whether the point is facing up or down. Has to do with energies from earth going into the heavens, rather than from the heavens down to the earth or something.

The myth has been the pentacle is inverted to hold the image of a goat, representing Satan. A lie.

Wilde_at-heart is right, if the star is pointing up the energy is released skyward, down earthward. Since there is no devil in witchcraft, we have no symbol for it or vessel to hold it's image.

Kylabelle
05-08-2014, 07:00 PM
By the way, the "Christmas tree" is arguably a pagan custom. There are (or in the past, have been) segments of Christianity that don't permit or tolerate Christmas trees.

Also, in my personal experience, symbols and what's known as sacred geometry can indeed carry a concentration of energy. How they are used and intended for use makes a very big difference in the quality and application of that energy. If a certain symbol or image has been used a lot for a certain purpose, there can be an accumulation of that sort of energy associated with it.

As I said, this is my personal experience only and of course I have no desire to convince anyone about it. However, because of this I can understand that certain groups get agitated about the use of certain symbols. As the OP (I believe it was) pointed out in a subsequent post upthread, many Catholic churches tend toward the mystical.

I don't agree with the assessments of the meaning of the images and symbols in the poster, at all, but I understand why the warning was given.

My take on this is that if an individual is strong in her or his own center (what I might call "internal field integrity") the effects of any potent image will be greatly offset, and so if such a person is aware of the potential effects of images, he or she can avert any unwanted influence fairly easily, with focus and intent.

Again, speaking only from my own experience, and extrapolating a bit.

mirandashell
05-08-2014, 11:04 PM
It's used as the logo for a racist forum. I won't post the link or name but it's not hard to find...

Well I'm certainly not going to go looking but I still find it extremely odd they would use it. There is no possible reason for it.

Wilde_at_heart
05-09-2014, 12:01 AM
By the way, the "Christmas tree" is arguably a pagan custom. There are (or in the past, have been) segments of Christianity that don't permit or tolerate Christmas trees.

Also, in my personal experience, symbols and what's known as sacred geometry can indeed carry a concentration of energy. How they are used and intended for use makes a very big difference in the quality and application of that energy. If a certain symbol or image has been used a lot for a certain purpose, there can be an accumulation of that sort of energy associated with it.

As I said, this is my personal experience only and of course I have no desire to convince anyone about it. However, because of this I can understand that certain groups get agitated about the use of certain symbols. As the OP (I believe it was) pointed out in a subsequent post upthread, many Catholic churches tend toward the mystical.

I don't agree with the assessments of the meaning of the images and symbols in the poster, at all, but I understand why the warning was given.

My take on this is that if an individual is strong in her or his own center (what I might call "internal field integrity") the effects of any potent image will be greatly offset, and so if such a person is aware of the potential effects of images, he or she can avert any unwanted influence fairly easily, with focus and intent.

Again, speaking only from my own experience, and extrapolating a bit.

My understanding was the opposite: that any symbol frequently used for the same thing loses its potency, at least at the level of individual interaction. Which is why some magicians use sigils they've created themselves. I could easily be wrong though :D

CynHolt
05-09-2014, 01:41 AM
Wow, so much to say here.

First symbols for some people are sources of power, while as for others they are only reminders of power that exist elsewhere.

When I come across people like this (and they exist in all religions) I feel sorry for them. The world is full of evil and so very scary. One false move and the terror begins. They also try to control others because they don't feel they can control themselves. As writers we should examine this type of personality. In America especially you'll find this type in churches, temples, and other organized groups, but mostly in politics. Don't worry Europe, I hear the fear is spreading there.

One odd fact about Unicorns - they are in the King James Version of the Bible. Most Biblical scholars don't like the KJV because they took a few literary liberties and the translation of a Hebrew word which means "wild beast" was translated as Unicorn. Now KJV was the first English Bible that didn't include disparaging comments about Catholics, but it was Protestant. So, perhaps it's an anti-Protestant thing to be against Unicorns?

kuwisdelu
05-09-2014, 01:50 AM
Also, in my personal experience, symbols and what's known as sacred geometry can indeed carry a concentration of energy. How they are used and intended for use makes a very big difference in the quality and application of that energy. If a certain symbol or image has been used a lot for a certain purpose, there can be an accumulation of that sort of energy associated with it.

I agree.

There's a reason why all the Navajos felt so uncomfortable at Legend Rock and why it felt so familiar to me.

And we still don't think those horses were really horses.

juniper
05-09-2014, 02:06 AM
I agree.

There's a reason why all the Navajos felt so uncomfortable at Legend Rock and why it felt so familiar to me.

And we still don't think those horses were really horses.

Would you talk a bit more about this? I'm not familiar with it, and google pulled up all sorts of unrelated stuff.

kuwisdelu
05-09-2014, 02:19 AM
Would you talk a bit more about this? I'm not familiar with it, and google pulled up all sorts of unrelated stuff.

Legend Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Rock) is an ancient petroglyph site in Wyoming.

I blogged about it here (http://kuwisdelu.blogspot.com/2012/09/tumbling-toward-yellowstone-5-ancients.html) (among other things), when we visited it on a geology field course.

They reminded me of similar petroglyphs in the southwest, such as El Morro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Morro_National_Monument), near Zuni, NM, from ancient pueblo peoples.

You've probably heard of the Anasazi, which comes from the Navajo word for "Ancient Ones" or "Ancient Enemies". They're indeed ancient pueblo people, so they're my ancestors, but the Navajo (who are not a pueblo tribe) fear them, as powerful spirits, like ancient ghosts.

There were two wild horses there when we visited. They watched us until we left. We think they were probably spirits protecting the place.

juniper
05-09-2014, 02:35 AM
They reminded me of similar petroglyphs in the southwest, such as El Morro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Morro_National_Monument), near Zuni, NM, from ancient pueblo peoples.

You've probably heard of the Anasazi,

Oh, thanks. I'll check out the link. I grew up in Colorado and went to Mesa Verde a few times. I'd like to go back someday. http://www.nps.gov/meve/forteachers/artifact_gallery.htm

Last December I was in Utah and went to this place to see this canyon with petroglyphs:

http://www.redrockcanyonlv.org/redrockcanyon/geology-highlights/

Places like that seem magical, reaching back into history.

Filigree
05-09-2014, 07:13 AM
I grew up along the Animas River in NW New Mexico, with three famous ruins so close by I spent some volunteer summers helping excavate. And I know about a hundred smaller places tucked into the hills and cliffs along the valley. I was taught never to disturb a place and walk lightly through them if I had to. But mostly, to just stay out. I'm a skeptic, but many of those little shelters and granaries felt more haunted than Salmon Ruin, Aztec Ruins, or Chaco Canyon.

I've never felt particularly threatened by another culture's symbols. I think it's because as an artist, I respect the act of symbol-making. I can disagree with the uses of such symbols, of course.

kuwisdelu
05-09-2014, 07:37 AM
I've never felt particularly threatened by another culture's symbols. I think it's because as an artist, I respect the act of symbol-making. I can disagree with the uses of such symbols, of course.

I think a symbol's power comes in part from our belief in it. When we stop believing, they lose power. I think the same applies to many deities, and this is reflected in some myths.

I think that's probably where the idea of older magic being more powerful comes from in fantasy. Personally, I don't want the magic to fade from the world, so I'll keep believing.

frimble3
05-09-2014, 08:09 AM
I used to work for two Evangelical Christian sisters who ran an upscale resale clothing boutique. -snip-
Guns were fine, as were Christian symbols and Confederate flags.

"Guns were fine, as were Christian symbols and Confederate flags." And she thought this was 'upscale'?

Roxxsmom
05-09-2014, 08:16 AM
Well I'm certainly not going to go looking but I still find it extremely odd they would use it. There is no possible reason for it.

True, but then, racist groups aren't exactly known for their logic, or even internal consistency of belief.


I think a symbol's power comes in part from our belief in it. When we stop believing, they lose power. I think the same applies to many deities, and this is reflected in some myths.

I think that's probably where the idea of older magic being more powerful comes from in fantasy. Personally, I don't want the magic to fade from the world, so I'll keep believing.
That's more or less how I think about it too, though of course others may feel differently.

There are certainly symbols that are so strongly associated with things that most people consider negative that it's hard to look at them and think "it's just a symbol." I feel this way when I look at swastikas or Confederate battle flags, certainly. I can't disassociate them from racism, genocide and slavery in my mind. Can something become imbued with bad energy or negativity that transcends our own frame of reference? Can the adoption of a Celtic Cross by a racist group spoil it as a more benign symbol, even corrupt its good energy? Some say yes, some say no, I gather.

I certainly don't know the answer.

kuwisdelu
05-09-2014, 08:45 AM
it's so strongly associated with things that most people consider negative that it's hard to look at them and think "it's just a symbol."

Nothing is ever "just a symbol".

The point of symbols is that they mean something.

I also think meaning something can mean being something.


I feel this way when I look at swastikas or Confederate battle flags, certainly. I can't disassociate them from racism, genocide and slavery in my mind. Can something become imbued with bad energy or negativity that transcends our own frame of reference? Can the adoption of a Celtic Cross by a racist group spoil it as a more benign symbol, even corrupt its good energy? Some say yes, some say no, I gather.

For me, no, I don't think — for example — that the Nazi's use of the swastika can destroy its original meanings in other uses.

Appropriation cannot destroy the real thing unless we let it.

jennontheisland
05-09-2014, 09:23 AM
On top of everything, they have the wrong symbol for the satanic cross! I mean some satanists might have adopted that one recently but that's the Blue Oyster Cult logo.
Yeah, and that's not the only band logo on there either.

Link to the song "Stranger than Fiction" by Bad Religion (one of those happy bouncy punky kinda bands) because it seemed most appropriate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-s5pP2aTiY

lastlittlebird
05-09-2014, 09:59 AM
My family is Catholic, but I've never seen that poster in a Catholic context. I have, however seen it elsewhere.

I joined a prayer group in a (non-religious) high school, hoping it would help me to make some friends. It was a mix of denominations, mostly Protestant I think, and they seemed really nice.

One day I wore a yin yang symbol necklace without even thinking about it (my cousin gave it to me and I thought it was pretty) and one of the girls in the group gave me a version of the OPs poster on a leaflet and told me that I needed to set an example or I would be responsible for pushing the younger members on their way to hell. I'm pretty sure she expected me to burn the pendant, but I didn't go that far... I just took it off and stowed it. I've got to admit that I was too shocked to even argue with her.

But then, she was a bit of a standout in the group. At one point she held this awful rallying speech about casting out witches, with the intent of getting rid of a member who prayed to the "Great Spirit".
Luckily the girl in charge of the group stopped her before anything serious happened. We weren't even supposed to be a Christian specific group. Just prayer in general. But there were a few very zealous members who took things too far all the time.

The last straw for me was when we had a two hour seminar on how far it was OK to go with boys without offending Jesus. They (the head girls) made us all read out how far we thought it was OK to go (they had a numbered chart, like 1. was holding hands, 2. was kissing with closed mouths, 3. was kissing with open mouths, etc.)
Several of us thought 4+ was pretty much OK. Turns out that anything over 1. was risking hellfire and of course we should have known that already.

Yeah, I wish I had walked out on the religious intolerance. But it was their vendetta against kissing that put me over the edge.
Sorry this went a little bit off topic.

Gavin Aendless
05-10-2014, 04:45 AM
The Christian fear of the pentagram (as an occult symbol) is pretty amusing. I mean, it's use in contemporary western Paganism and modern Satanism derives entirely from (heretical) Christian ritual magic. As do many ritual practices of modern paganism - such as circle casting and calling the quarters. The pentagram itself can be seen in old churches all over Europe, representing the five wounds of Christ. For good Catholics to get their hearts racing over it is essentially to abjure a potent symbol of their own faith. It *was* used in the pre-Christian era in the Pythagorean mystery school, but neither modern pagans nor Christians knew anything about that until relatively recently.

And as for unicorns, what can one do but laugh one's ass off?

If I may plug my own work for a moment, my book 'Paganism & Christianity - A Resource for Wiccans, Witches and Pagans' goes into these misunderstandings in some depth. :-)

Quentin Nokov
05-10-2014, 10:51 PM
Actually, the interleaved ribbon is a trinity sign.

Antonin, a good book to read is The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. It's in public domain so it can be read on line.