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Atlantis
04-07-2014, 07:47 AM
I'm doing a class at the moment about publication. The class teaches you about the publishing industry, genre vs literature, how to write a proposal, that sort of thing.

Yesterday, while listening to the online lecture, my teacher recommended that we should consider using a manuscript appraisal service to "find out what is wrong with our book" and she said it could help us get it published.

I was pretty...godsmacked that she gave out such terrible advice. I've been on writers message boards since I was about 14 and one thing that has stuck with me over the years is not to go with book doctors, manuscript appraisal services, or paid editing services because they cost a hell of a lot and are not worth the investment.

The company she listed charges $90 an hour and will edit entire novels but all they do is a basic copy and structural edit and then they give you a four page critique. The total cost can be up to $2,000. How exactly will paying up to two grand for a critique help me get published? Why should I fork out so much money for someone to tell me that I have put a comma in the wrong place?

The teacher then showed us the website of an author who had gone ahead and done it and published a couple of books. The teacher said that if she had not have had the appraisal done she might never have gotten published.

Getting a manuscript appraisal done can be helpful, sure, but it is not a 100% sure fire way to getting closer to publication. It's like the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa says to Homer "By that logic this rock keeps tigers away" and Homer says "Lisa...I would like to buy your rock!"

I think writers would be better off keeping their two grand and learning how to edit their work themselves.

Marian Perera
04-07-2014, 07:58 AM
The teacher then showed us the website of an author who had gone ahead and done it and published a couple of books. The teacher said that if she had not have had the appraisal done she might never have gotten published.

Just curious... do you know who published the books?

And yeah, what you said about the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 08:08 AM
Just curious... do you know who published the books?

And yeah, what you said about the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Robert Hale publishing in the UK.

cornflake
04-07-2014, 08:18 AM
Is this the same class you'd said was so focused on grammar? Maybe the teacher doesn't see the forest for the trees?

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 08:37 AM
Is this the same class you'd said was so focused on grammar? Maybe the teacher doesn't see the forest for the trees?

No, no, this is a different class. I actually passed that unit somehow. I almost had a litter of kittens during the exam but I scraped through in the creative writing bits.

edit: I just remembered that this teacher was in charge of running the grammar class but did not teach it herself.

Chris P
04-07-2014, 08:40 AM
Has your teacher been published?

Filigree
04-07-2014, 08:50 AM
That's what I'd want to know. It may or may not be worth it to talk to her privately (not in front of the class.) How much do you need the grade, versus how outraged are you at bad information?

While getting an editor for self-publishing can be critical, workshopping and critique groups are far cheaper and probably more effective at the structural editing problems that plague many first novels. For submitting to bigger, stable publishers, prior 'professional' editing does seem to be a waste of money.

The kinds of editors I'd consider have worked in the Big Five for decades and usually charge around $200 an hour or more - but they do amazing work.

I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

Chris P
04-07-2014, 08:56 AM
I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

My guess is the former, since there is so much bad information out there. Yeah, editing could help, just as could sending a box of cookies with your manuscript. Does that make it a good idea or worth the time and money? And how do you know that the editor who gets your book knows what he or she is doing?

I used to work for a proofreading/editing company that offered manuscript critique services and query packages. I stopped taking fiction jobs after the second one (my specialty was scientific journal articles, which is a whole different business) because it felt wrong to take more money for the editing than the author was likely to make for writing.

Filigree
04-07-2014, 08:58 AM
This is slightly off-topic, but here is an interview (http://thequeensquillreview.com/2012/07/16/interview-with-margaret-muir-from-mainstream-to-indie/) with an author who was unsatisfied with Hale.

I've included it as a typical caveat that previous 'professional editing' may not be a guarantee of publication at a strong house. Although still respected by lots of authors and reviewers, Hale is one of those publishers with hidden liabilities that newer authors might not pick up on. Using a Hale author - even a satisfied one - as an example of the virtues of paid editing is not a really valid argument.

laurasbadideas
04-07-2014, 08:59 AM
This sounds pretty shady to me, especially since she's pushing one specific company. Does she have some kind of connection to this company? Does your university have any classes that teach novel writing? Why isn't she suggesting those instead?

Kerosene
04-07-2014, 09:21 AM
I agree with the kickbacks or affiliation--the teach could be one of the editors, and just advertising. If I was you, Atlantis, I'd wait to pass the class and then bring up some concerns with your college's board. There might be strict rules in your college restricting the instructor's ability to advertise themselves or others for services--mine has some loose ones.

Otherwise, the advice of getting a manuscript appraisal service isn't bad. It's not exactly good--can be horrendous in the right community's eyes--but just not smart, IMO. You can do better by gathering beta-readers and asking them to be critical, rather than paying for some stranger to critique the MS--I want to note: If you do know who's appraising your MS and you respect their input, it might be worth it. And editing is editing; you either need it, or you don't. At least she's not advising someone who seeks trade publishing to get their MS edited.

From what I hear, the editing fees seem a tad high--depending, of course, on factors.

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 09:53 AM
Has your teacher been published?

She has had one novel published through a small local press.

blacbird
04-07-2014, 10:03 AM
She has had one novel published through a small local press.


And did she use the $90-per-hour "appraisal" service?

caw

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 10:04 AM
This is slightly off-topic, but here is an interview (http://thequeensquillreview.com/2012/07/16/interview-with-margaret-muir-from-mainstream-to-indie/) with an author who was unsatisfied with Hale.

I've included it as a typical caveat that previous 'professional editing' may not be a guarantee of publication at a strong house. Although still respected by lots of authors and reviewers, Hale is one of those publishers with hidden liabilities that newer authors might not pick up on. Using a Hale author - even a satisfied one - as an example of the virtues of paid editing is not a really valid argument.

The author in that interview was the same author my teacher showed us as proof if you get professional editing you can get published professionally. That is interesting.

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 10:12 AM
That's what I'd want to know. It may or may not be worth it to talk to her privately (not in front of the class.) How much do you need the grade, versus how outraged are you at bad information?

While getting an editor for self-publishing can be critical, workshopping and critique groups are far cheaper and probably more effective at the structural editing problems that plague many first novels. For submitting to bigger, stable publishers, prior 'professional' editing does seem to be a waste of money.

The kinds of editors I'd consider have worked in the Big Five for decades and usually charge around $200 an hour or more - but they do amazing work.

I'd worry that your instructor either just has bad information, or may be receiving kickbacks from the editing service.

I read an article for the class today that said we should consider ringing publishers to find out if they would be interested in publishing our book and in the proposal we should give a recommended publication date that we might think would be a good chance for promotion - I guess publishing something near Christmas if the book is about Christmas.

All this bad advice is doing my head in a bit (especially the bit around ringing the publisher yeah they would love that), I need the grade but I'm making my opinions clear on the message board that I disagree with a lot that is being taught to the class.

My feeling is the teacher might be a colleague or a friend of the person who is running the manuscript appraisal service. It all seems a bit unethical to me.

Old Hack
04-07-2014, 10:39 AM
Some very general background: Robert Hale is a niche publisher: it publishes books for libraries, so its books are in library binding: therefore they're usually much more expensive than you'd expect.

Their print-runs are short, as they sell primarily to the library market, and they only reprint when they have orders for 100 or more copies in hand: therefore their advances are low.

But once you get a contract from them it seems you're likely to get further contracts from them.

The advice you've been given seems bad to me. But I'm not sure how you can stop this bad advice being given out without jeopardising your chances in the class; you might be wise to get your head down and do your assignments as asked, while remembering that much of what you're being taught is not true.

If you're paying for this course, you might want to lodge a formal complaint with the institution you're learning in. It's wrong for you to be taught such misinformation. Especially when there are so many people out there who know how things really work.

Atlantis
04-07-2014, 11:52 AM
And did she use the $90-per-hour "appraisal" service?

caw

I don't know but the man who runs it is a published author at the same publishing house that she is.

Helix
04-07-2014, 12:15 PM
To be fair to your lecturer, various writers centres in Australia offer information on manuscript appraisal services, including links to assessors, and some also offer those services as well, so the idea isn't something she's pulled out of thin air.

WritingWA (http://www.writingwa.org/information/faq/#question8)

Queensland Writers Centre (http://www.qwc.asn.au/help-for-writers/writers-guides/editing-feedback-and-support/manuscript-development-and-assessment/)

Writers Victoria (http://writersvictoria.org.au/help-for-writers/manuscript-assessments)

NSW Writers Centre (http://www.nswwc.org.au/support-for-writers/menuscript-services/menuscript-assesment/)

Australian Writers Centre (http://www.writerscentre.com.au/all-courses/manuscript-assessment/)


(Might be worth emending the name of the unit, because they tend to be specific to the university.)

waylander
04-07-2014, 01:20 PM
We have had several discussions on AW about the value of 'book doctors'. Suffice to say there are circumstances where I think they can play a useful role.

aruna
04-07-2014, 02:50 PM
We have had several discussions on AW about the value of 'book doctors'. Suffice to say there are circumstances where I think they can play a useful role.

Exactly. And while it's not the rule, I do have to sy that the one I used was directly responsible for getting me a major agent and publisher. And she did not charge $90 an hour; nowhere near. She charges per word count and it came to around 300 GBP at the time (about 15 years ago but the price hasn't changed that much).

The point is: use discrimination. If you use a ms assessment service check out the credentials of the editors. And don't overpay.
ETA: it's definitely not kosher for a teacher to recommend a particular service. Take care.

Cathy C
04-07-2014, 04:25 PM
Something you might consider is asking the teacher's opinion of some proven editors out there. You'd get a good feel for the advice she gives if she acknowledges the skill of the good ones and amends to tell the class that her suggestion is only one of several, or if she pushes her suggestion as better than others.

A few to print out pages on:

Anna Genoese - Aleuromancy Editing (http://www.annagenoese.com/work_exp.html)
Debra Doyle (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/editorial.html)
P.N. Elrod (http://www.vampwriter.com/VAMPWRITER_EDITING.htm)

There are any number of other good ones. These just popped into my mind.

Filigree
04-07-2014, 04:56 PM
Atlantis, if I was in the same situation, I'd wait to pass the class, until my grade was safe. Then ask to speak to her privately, and bring up all these issues. If she's genuinely trying to help, she might be willing to change her info. Or she might get defensive and double down. Then go talk to the administration of your school. Beyond that, there's not much you can do.

I am disheartened by the number of English language and writing teachers who still give bad advice. If I still tutored today I'd just start by giving everyone a printed reference page for AW, Writers Beware, Preditors & Editors, the 'Making Light' blog, and a few other 'real world' writers resources.

Jamesaritchie
04-07-2014, 05:59 PM
I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

The only appraisal service or book doctor any writer should need is the freebie you get when submitting something.

If your novel isn't close enough to professional quality to make a good agent or editor tell you what needs changed, then you need to learn how to make it so.

Money should flow to the writer, not away, and books should be written by the writer, not by anyone else.

jaksen
04-07-2014, 06:28 PM
Like a lot that one learns in college, chew it up, but don't swallow. Spit it out when no one's looking.

I learned a lot about writing (in college) which was nothing but wishful thinking on the part of a few young professors who couldn't get published no matter what they did. (And this is eons ago, pre-internet and pre-computers for most people.) Had I followed their advice, I'd not be published today.

My best English/writing teachers were in high school, no kidding. But I went to high school in the late 1960's, when teachers were having us kids write out Beatles and Bob Dylan lyrics to analyze them. We read parts of the Bible as literature. One of my writing topics was, "Sexual Promiscuity Today." And yes, it was an assigned topic.

Back to your issue, in life you're going to get a lot of great device and a lot of not so great. One of the things about growing up and getting older is you learn to sift the great from the not so great. I'm sure this teacher has taught you some things of value. Use those.

Ignore what seems off. I think you've got a good gut instinct for what that is.

Filigree
04-07-2014, 06:43 PM
What James said is harsh, but true.

The only time I'd use a paid editor is if and when I have to self-publish a big novel, and then only for line edits and proofreading. By that point in the process, my beta readers and I should have already dealt with structural errors.

Old Hack
04-07-2014, 09:09 PM
I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

The only appraisal service or book doctor any writer should need is the freebie you get when submitting something.

If your novel isn't close enough to professional quality to make a good agent or editor tell you what needs changed, then you need to learn how to make it so.

Money should flow to the writer, not away, and books should be written by the writer, not by anyone else.

James, I think the first part of your comment contradicts the part I've put into bold.

I agree that there's no point using an editor if you get your editor to improve your work for you, and that's that: but if you use an editorial agency which tutors you through the process of revising and improving your work (which is what the better ones do) then you're learning skills which you can apply to future titles: you're not just revising the book in front of you, you're learning how to make all your work better. And that's when it's worth employing a good editorial consultancy.


What James said is harsh, but true.

The only time I'd use a paid editor is if and when I have to self-publish a big novel, and then only for line edits and proofreading. By that point in the process, my beta readers and I should have already dealt with structural errors.

I've read many books which have been through beta-reading, but which are rife with structural errors (and others too). Beta readers aren't necessarily the answer.

Phaeal
04-07-2014, 09:13 PM
Hold on a minute -- I'm on the phone to all five of the Big dogs, telling them when they should publish my next series. Some of them sounded a little disgruntled, but then I told them a COLLEGE PROFESSOR passed out an article about it, so they caved and said next Whitsuntide would be fine.

NeuroFizz
04-08-2014, 12:05 AM
I don't know but the man who runs it is a published author at the same publishing house that she is.

This thread has my scruff up. A university instructor (or professor) should not be in the business of recommending a service and then directing the students to a specific provider, unless that instructor can assure the students the provider (1) is far superior to all others (this should have some documentation) and (2) has no association, formal or otherwise (including friendship) with said instructor. Universities have very specific and detailed conflict of interest regulations. For example I have to fill out a multi-question form each and every year that asks for specific outside activities and their potential for any kind of conflict of interest. If the instructor chooses to push the benefits of an outside evaluation service, he/she should provide a list of potential providers, and that list should include none with which he/she has even the slightest appearance of a connection.

To indicate the kind of regulations in play, if I write a textbook for a class I teach, I can't require that text unless I can prove it is truly unique with no equivalent competitors. If there are competitors, I would have to offer the students a choice of textbooks, including mine. In other words, requiring students to purchase my book for a class is potentially a huge conflict of interest situation since I directly benefit (through royalties).

This instructor's actions strike me as having a huge ethical stickiness.

Ken
04-08-2014, 01:00 AM
$90 per hour is an awful lot.

Then again so is college tuition.

Filigree
04-08-2014, 01:03 AM
That's what I thought, Neuro. I have a relative who teaches architecture at a major American university, and he has to go through pages of disclosure forms every semester.

Old Hack, I agree that beta readers are not the only (or in some cases the best) answer. Structure can be taught, like everything else. I learned an immense amount every time a professional editor worked with me on a contracted piece. And I've been lucky in that a couple of my beta readers are far better at this than I am.

It may just come down to cost v. opportunity v. professionalism. If I had several thousand dollars to spend on one project, I'd be equally well served if I contracted someone like Betsy Mitchell or the good Dr. Doyle - or went to Clarion West or Viable Paradise and workshopped the heck out of the mms.

But I had to get *to that point* first, both in terms of my writing skills and my ego. To be really harsh (and from years of hanging around with other would-be authors), a lot of the writers looking for professional editing are probably not even at the stage where they can grasp the lessons good editors could teach them. Or they can get those lessons much more easily through books or reputable online courses.

ETA: Ken, the person I'm looking at does charge $200 per hour. But she's really good and she understands all my genres. Her CV shows it. And she's not the only top-tier editor around. Personally, I wouldn't hire anyone with a background at a little press or school, unless they can show some seriously great books in their past.

Bolero
04-08-2014, 01:42 AM
OK, one possibly dumb question. The lecturer is teaching a writing class. Why isn't she assessing the manuscripts and providing feed back? Isn't that what she is there for?

Also, editing services. A friend of mine for whom I beta read paid John Jarrold to look at a manuscript (that I'd already beta-read) and we both learnt a lot. The manuscript was in pretty good shape already, but there was some very useful fine tuning that could be done. FYI John Jarrold used to be the commissioning editor on the Earthlight imprint. So not only a professional editor, but one who'd worked in sff. These days he is an agent and provides an editorial service.

On and off I've also read John Barnes and his book doctor's black bag blog - that has some interesting comments on how you structure the storytelling. He provides a paid service too (not used it) but there is a caveat on it about you shouldn't be a writer who has just started, you should have finished at least one book - until you've done that you're not advanced enough in the craft for what he does.

Ken
04-08-2014, 01:45 AM
@ Filigree

On the flipside of the coin, I am pleased that editors (professional ones with good CV's and whatnot) are getting top dollar. They deserve it. Editing is a really valuable skill. And if they have expertise (real expertise) then they are not ripping off those willing to pay. (Not to say those willing to pay necessarily need to.)

bearilou
04-08-2014, 04:47 AM
I always find it a little odd how people will warn someone off paying for an edit stating that you have to be careful to make sure the editor knows what they're doing and then turn around and advise to get a free beta without the same warning to make sure the beta knows what they're doing, too.

And somehow this free beta implicitly carries much more weight in the knowledge department than paying for the knowledge.

Just...a little funny to me, I guess.

Helix
04-08-2014, 05:24 AM
$90 per hour is an awful lot.

Then again so is college tuition.


The OP's in Australia, where uni fees are not cheap, but not as ghastly as they can be elsewhere. Arts degrees are about AU$7,000 p.a. for Australian citizens. Undergraduate students can defer payment of the fees until they cross an income threshold, currently just over AU$51,000.

As for AU$90/hr for a comprehensive edit -- that's sounds reasonable recompense for working on someone else's manuscript. Be good if we could get that in royalties for our own!

Filigree
04-08-2014, 05:24 AM
Not me. I won't ask a beta reader unless I know their skill level.

Ken
04-08-2014, 01:42 PM
Arts degrees are about AU$7,000 p.a. for Australian citizens.

Good deal. Here in the states that'd just about cover the cost of textbooks for a semester.

Helix
04-08-2014, 01:57 PM
Good deal. Here in the states that'd just about cover the cost of textbooks for a semester.

That's frightening!

*makes note to write more textbooks*

Terie
04-08-2014, 02:11 PM
That's frightening!

It's also exaggeration. While textbooks are expensive, they don't come to US$6,500 (which is AUS$7,000) per semester. They probably won't come to that total for an entire four-year program, though, depending on your course, it might come close.

According to this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/04/college-textbook-prices-increase_n_2409153.html) from January 2013, the average cost of textbooks per year was US$655, although, as the article acknowledges, "with a single textbook easily costing as much as $300, that total can easily be much higher." Still, it doesn't approach US$6,500 per semester.

Helix
04-08-2014, 02:21 PM
We probably need a hyperbole icon.

shaldna
04-08-2014, 04:12 PM
I always find it a little odd how people will warn someone off paying for an edit stating that you have to be careful to make sure the editor knows what they're doing and then turn around and advise to get a free beta without the same warning to make sure the beta knows what they're doing, too.

And somehow this free beta implicitly carries much more weight in the knowledge department than paying for the knowledge.

Just...a little funny to me, I guess.


I don't know about the rest of you, but my beta isn't editing my book. She's reading it as a reader, a very thorough reader, but a reader none the less. Her job is to asses the plot, the characters, my writing style etc. It's not her job to pick apart my MS.

As the others have said in relation to the original thread - I'd be a little wary, as I always am when people who are supposedly in the know (as you would expect someone lecturing in publication to be) would be a bit more clued in.

I know we've asked if she was published, but does she have any actual publishing experience - ie. seeing it from the other side? If not, what is really qualifying her to teach this class?

Now, in all other aspects she could be an amazing teacher and highly knowledgable, but this is just bad advice and she should really know better. I'd also be wary about the connection between her and the supplier of the service - could be a coincidence, but who knows?

Ken
04-08-2014, 11:01 PM
edt/

textbooks cost an arm and a leg

;-)

shaldna
04-08-2014, 11:54 PM
edt/

textbooks cost an arm and a leg

;-)

Some of my veterinary ones were over 100 each and that was almost 10 years ago.

Sunflowerrei
04-09-2014, 01:00 AM
OK, one possibly dumb question. The lecturer is teaching a writing class. Why isn't she assessing the manuscripts and providing feed back? Isn't that what she is there for?


My writing professors taught us writing basics, ran our workshop classes, maybe gave us some cursory information on the publishing process and that was it. We only wrote essays and short stories in our writing classes, not full novel manuscripts.

But none of them ever told us about manuscript appraisals either. Or beta readers.

Ken
04-09-2014, 01:36 AM
Some of my veterinary ones were over 100 each and that was almost 10 years ago.

Wow. $167.46 US dollars. Helix may have something there with writing textbooks. Sell a hundred copies; net $16,746 ! (And that was ten years ago.)

Bolero
04-09-2014, 01:42 AM
Trouble is, that kind of text book will be very heavy on diagrams and photos - so they cost an arm and a leg to produce in the first place.
Ditto science text books with equations as well as diagrams and photos.

Helix
04-09-2014, 01:55 AM
A lot of those textbooks are multi-author too and contributions are bought outright rather than on a royalty basis. Plus there can be all sorts of odd claims on income derived from textbooks if the author is an academic at one of those unis with rapacious IP clauses in the employment contracts. Or, indeed, not in the contracts but brought in as a subsequent uni-wide policy. Even if the textbook was written in the academic's own time on their own equipment in their own home.

I mention this purely as a hypothetical, you understand.

[Insert appropriate icon]

Old Hack
04-09-2014, 10:17 AM
And there's that little thing about you having to be an expert in your field to be commissioned to write a University-level textbook. It's not something most writers can just pick up.

Ken
04-09-2014, 03:41 PM
It would be interesting to view a breakdown of all costs involved in producing a college textbook as well as profits and where those go. Maybe the sky-high price is justified. Maybe it varies from book to book. Maybe someone along the line is making out like a bandit, in general. Thanks for the insight.

Old Hack
04-09-2014, 04:13 PM
Ken, textbooks are expensive because there's such a limited market for them. Economies of scale and all that.

They don't necessarily earn their authors much, and do require a lot of expertise to write: in general, they're not a money-spinner for the writers concerned.

gloame
04-09-2014, 07:07 PM
I'd quit writing before I'd pay anyone for an appraisal, or use a book doctor. I am the book doctor. If you can write, you don't need a book doctor, and if you need a book doctor, you can't write.

I agree with this, generally. The only thing I'd add is that I think having a trusted beta reader (who knows and enjoys your genre) is a really good idea.

The grammar, etc., is stuff you catch yourself during editing. Good sentence-writing is learned through practice.

You don't need a book doctor. You just need a second set of (objective) eyes to point out when that plot device in your head didn't quite make it to the page.

waylander
04-09-2014, 07:16 PM
Beta readers can only take you so far. They are not publishing pros and there may be a sizeable gap between what your beta reader thinks is a great novel and what a publishing pro thinks is a great novel.
But I wouldn't go to a book doctor/editor until I'd been through several beta readers and rewrites

gloame
04-09-2014, 07:21 PM
Beta readers can only take you so far. They are not publishing pros and there may be a sizeable gap between what your beta reader thinks is a great novel and what a publishing pro thinks is a great novel.
But I wouldn't go to a book doctor/editor until I'd been through several beta readers and rewrites

That's true. I think though, that if you're finding that your beta readers keep coming back with fatal flaws that need to be fixed (whether it be plot, character, dialogue, or prose) then you need to consider how much a book doctor can feasibly help you. If you really need more practice writing, then having a book doctor isn't going to necessarily be a good solution because what happens when you write the next book? You'll just have to hire one again.

In general, if a beta reader (or two) are big readers and they know your genre, they'll be able to tell when something doesn't work. IME. YMMV.

Bolero
04-09-2014, 10:10 PM
Not everyone can find a beta reader, let alone a competent one interested in the genre they are writing in. Yes, getting unpaid help to scrutinise your work before paying for help is more economical - but not always feasible for everyone.
I just think that paying for competent editorial services works for some people and can be a valuable learning experience. Quite a few editing services will offer to do just a couple of chapters rather than a full manuscript. You can then apply the lessons learnt on those two chapters to the rest of the manuscript.

Filigree
04-09-2014, 11:43 PM
I will point out that even people as far up the ladder as George Lucas never really learned from their previous beta-readers and co-writers. It's just that at George's level, not enough people were able to dissuade him in time from the whole Phantom Menace thing.