more Presbyterian questions

Siri Kirpal

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Thanks to those of you who posted on my earlier thread about Presbyterian etiquette, I've made some serious changes to the setting of my wip. For the better, I might add.

Okay, now for a slew of miscellaneous questions. Any help with any of them will be appreciated.

Background: Presbyterian minister who trained at the San Francisco Theological Seminary in San Anselmo in 1913-1916. Works in Western Oregon.

Questions:
How would a minister be called/chosen for a church in 1917. Factor in that WWI has started. (He's not going to war as his eyesight is bad.) According to my husband (partially raised Presbyterian), he would be invited to give a sermon, conduct the service, partake of fellowship, and get interviewed by the whole congregation or the elders. Then the congregation votes on him. Is that scenario accurate? Would the whole congregation voting have included women?

Would he serve an internship after receiving his degree prior to ordination? If so, how long would it be?

What would be the usual order of service for a funeral in 1918? I'm assuming graveside for a summer funeral would be reasonable, yes? As the prospective son-in-law to the deceased, would it have been acceptable for him to officiate? Again, factor in that this is war time.

Am I correct in assuming that clerical collars would have been optional for a retire minister in 1975?

Could someone please explain to me the difference between a presbyter and an elder? The ones I'm getting online make my brain fuzzy.

Any book or website suggestions? Besides, of course, the King James Bible. :)

Thanks and God bless.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Telergic

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I'm also interested in Presbyterian practice in 1917, but my interest is in the Church of Scotland, not so much in American practice -- though I imagine they were similar in this period.

My particular interest is in intolerance towards Catholics. The Westminster Confession of Faith, a core doctrinal document of Presbyterianism, is very explicit. The Pope is the Antichrist, and Catholics worship false idols. During this period, the Confession had not yet been changed to remove or modify these clauses (it would be decades before this happened), and so virtually every elder in the church would presumably have adopted these principles.

And yet on the other hand I've never thought of Scotland as being more than usually religiously intolerant, and I would have thought that they would be more sympathetic with the Catholic Irish than the English were during this period. And this was the time when relaxation of anti-Catholic rules in the UK was under way.


So I wonder what the actual case was, whether they were so vocally intolerant as the WCF suggests, or whether those particular clauses were merely nodded at or considered regrettable holdovers from the past.



I'm not a Presbyterian or even a Christian, but my understanding is there are two kinds of Church Elders, Ruling and Teaching. The first are senior laypeople, the second are priests or pastors. Together they may elect a subset of their number to manage church functions in a given locality, and these may be known as presbyters. The word itself simply means "priest".
 
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KateJJ

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My knowledge of Presbyterians is of modern-day ones. Telergic is largely correct, especially in the difference between ruling and teaching elders. Though I don't think that use of "presbyter" is modern. Not sure about usage in 1917.

Your pastor character would be a teaching elder. In a modern Presbyterian church, until he is "called" by his first church he would not be ordained. Once he has been ordained he would retain that state unless some really unusual circumstances occurred.

Unsure whether Presbyterian ministers wore clerical collars, Presbyterians tend to be not fond of "showy" things.

FYI aside from ruling elders there are also "deacons", who are laymen appointed to carry out various tasks. Usually, elders function more as a council while deacons lead committees and projects. The roles are not interchangeable.

In modern Presbyterian churches the process your husband describes holds. Women vote on the pastor too. In the past the vote might have been limited to the head of household (meaning no women, and unmarried sons probably not given a vote)

One important addition: as well as going before the Session (board of elders) he would be examined and accepted by the Presbytery (local grouping of churches). Each member church will send a few elders as representatives to the Presbytery. The Presbytery works something like a Catholic diocese, except ground up instead of top down, and with rather more limited venue.

Doubtful he would serve an internship. He could have been called and ordained right out of seminary.

This is a link to the Presbyterian Church in America's "Book of Church Order": http://briarwood.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/BCO-2006-reprint-6th-Ed-ALL-PARTS.pdf - you may find it a helpful guide as it has various rituals and ordinances.

It's modern (first version from 1990) but the PCA is a conservative denomination and this may give you some insights. The Westminster Confession of Faith and the Longer and Shorter Catechisms may also give insight. The Heidelburg Catechism, while not Presbyterian, has widespread popularity in reformed circles.

If you don't know where the American Presbyterian denominations have merged and split in the last century you should do a quick google search just to make sure you have the names right, certain denominations were present in various geographic areas at different times.

If I can be of more help feel free to PM me. (If it's not apparent I'm Presbyterian, so I at least know the modern stuff)
 

Siri Kirpal

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Thanks much, both of you!

Where can I get my hands on the Westminster Confession of Faith? My google searches tell me what it is, but don't give the text. I'm interested in the anti-Catholic stance too as it's a big plot point in the book.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Siri Kirpal

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Oh, and yes, some Presbyterian ministers wore clerical collars in that period. I've seen the photos. I just hadn't seen any from 1975.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

wendymarlowe

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Okay, not all of this may apply to 100-year-old church function, but my experience as a Presbyterian elder:

Each year, each church elects a number of elders and deacons. If you haven't been one already, you need to be ordained as an elder or a deacon. Most of the more active adults in the church are probably ordained as both. Ordination involves a little ceremony, promising you'll follow the faith, and promising you want to work for the good of the church. I was ordained as a "youth elder" when I was 16 - our church had one youth elder every year. You must be an ordained pastor or elder in the Presbyterian church to be able to serve communion. (Once you are, though, it's for life - I am able to serve communion at my parents' church even though I haven't attended a Presbyterian church for more than a decade.)

The elected elders (our church did 3-year terms with a 2-term limit; I think this is pretty standard) make up the church session. The Presbyterian church structure is actually what the US government is based off of - the session is analogous to congress. The session makes the bylaws for the church and essentially does all the major decision-making. The church may also have several subcommittees, all of which must have at least a few session members on them, but which may also have laypeople (i.e. anyone who isn't currently on session, ordained or not). Some of these subcommittees are ongoing (worship, outreach, Christian education, etc.) and some are incident-specific (nominating committee, church renovation committee, etc.). Just like the US government, some decisions are made on the subcommittee level, some are kicked up to the whole session for approval, and a few go to the entire congregation.

(A word on deacons: these are the people who organize the social events, arrange food for people who are having surgery, organize the greeters at each service, take care of flowers, etc. Traditionally the "women's work" in previous eras.)

In the PCUSA, both women and men can be ordained as elders, deacons, and clergy. In PCA (which is more prominent in the southern US), women have much more restricted roles in church government.

So to get a new pastor:

1) The assistant pastor can't just be promoted - you have to go through the right process

2) The presbytery (regional governing body - usually 3-4 of them in a mid-sized state) assigns a temporary pastor for a year or two to help the congregation get through the change. Sometimes this involves a lot of social cleanup, if the previous pastor left under bad circumstances (was asked to leave, the church was on the verge of a split, dying congregation, etc.) and sometimes it's just as a placeholder. Some pastors do this their entire careers, jumping from church to church for a year or two at a time.

3) The session appoints a nominating committee to find potential new pastors. Nowadays there's a national computerized database - like a job board - but prior to that, there was essentially a newsletter with a listing of pastors looking to move on.

4) The nominating committee considers several candidates and gets it down to a handful who then get phone interviews. Of those, two or three are invited to come visit the church, speak to the session, and possibly preach a sermon.

5) The nominating committee picks a pastor to recommend, the session approves it, and the whole thing goes up to a congregation-wide vote.

6) IF all that goes through, and IF the candidate still wants to come, the church then has a new pastor and the interim pastor moves on somewhere else :)
 

wendymarlowe

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ETA: my grandfather was a Presbyterian minister from ~1950 up through the 1990s. If you've got more specific questions, let me know and I can pass them on to him - he's also a writer, and he'd probably get a kick out of helping :)
 

Siri Kirpal

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Thanks, everyone! I'll use those links, Telegric.

I need this pastor to be permanent...for a long time. At the moment, I'm thinking he'll be serving as an assistant pastor with a large congregation before being called to this position. Perhaps he is replacing an interim pastor.

There was a shortage of pastors during WWI, for maybe obvious reasons.

And thank you Wendy and Kate for your offers. Would either of you be willing to beta read for me? The book is still in gestation, so I won't actually need that until next year, probably late in the year, at the soonest.

Thanks and God bless.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

pkbax

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Although my upbringing includes several denominations, the one I am most familiar with as far as governance is the Presbyterian since Mom was a Deacon and Dad was an elder (and he served on multiple nomination committees).

Kate and Wendy have done a great job giving you the basics.

I do remember one of our pastors still wearing the clerical collar in the 70's but not all of them did, so yes the collar would have been optional at that time.

Regarding the presbyter vs elder question - my Dad put it this way "all presbyters are elders but not all elders are presbyters". LOL - clear as mud to a kid. Simplistically, presbyters are those currently serving in the capacity of representing their church before the Presbytery.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Thanks, pkb. That kinda sums up what I've figured out from everyone's posts.

Anyone have any thoughts on what texts a Presbyterian pastor would have used for a graveside funeral service?

Thanks and God bless.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

pkbax

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Anyone have any thoughts on what texts a Presbyterian pastor would have used for a graveside funeral service?

I don't know about in 1918, but there is a book of services for all occasions. Any ordained elder or above (the Deacons were not allowed to do this as I recall) could just read the service out of this book. It would include the order of the service and specific questions (as in a wedding) or statements (as in communion or funeral) and readings. It used to be a separate book, but one of my newer hymnals has the services included.