Why do Big Publishers feel the need to operate/own vanity presses?

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AdamNeymars

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HarperCollins: Westbow
Harlequin: Dellarte Press
Penguin Random House: Author Solutions
Simon & Schuster: Archway

The last company that you would expect owning or operating a vanity press is one of the Big Publishers. It's totally different from what authors expect from them.
 

cornflake

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HarperCollins: Westbow
Harlequin: Dellarte Press
Penguin Random House: Author Solutions
Simon & Schuster: Archway

The last company that you would expect owning or operating a vanity press is one of the Big Publishers. It's totally different from what authors expect from them.

To make money?

Why is it the last company you'd expect? They publish books.
 

Old Hack

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It's another income stream for them.

I find it sad that any reputable trade publisher would want to work with a vanity publisher but as so many people who claim to have self-published have actually worked with the names you've listed, Adam, and are offended if one points them towards the definition of vanity publishing, it seems that we're in the minority here.

There are ways that big publishers could provide valuable assistance to self publishers without exploiting them. The big publishers would earn well out of it, too.
 

Torgo

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I do not really have a problem with a trade publisher also owning a publishing services company. I do have a problem with a trade publisher owning a vanity press. From what I know of Author Solutions, their subsidiaries cross the line into the latter worryingly often.

As Old Hack says, there are certainly better ways of assisting self publishers than offering expensive and dubious marketing services.
 

TheNighSwan

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Probably because when they get a MS they don't want, they can forward it to their vanity unit, instead of letting the money fly away.
 

Putputt

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Probably because when they get a MS they don't want, they can forward it to their vanity unit, instead of letting the money fly away.

Huh? Is that the case? I've never heard of that happening.
 

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If they did that, there would be far more writers published with vanity publishers and the internet would be buzzing with outrage. It doesn't happen often, and when it does, people object.
 

DreamWeaver

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Probably because when they get a MS they don't want, they can forward it to their vanity unit, instead of letting the money fly away.
Without the author's permission to forward their query to another house, this would be unethical. (Not that that means no one does it.)

I have heard of questionable smaller publishers and agents doing this, and Author Solutions used to (and might still) pay kickbacks for this kind of referral. Harlequin originally tried something of the sort with Dellarte, and got smacked down pretty hard. IIRC, Nelson originally did the referral dance with Westbow, but also got some extremely bad press and I don't think they do it anymore.
 
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Torgo

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If they did that, there would be far more writers published with vanity publishers and the internet would be buzzing with outrage. It doesn't happen often, and when it does, people object.

I would point blank refuse to do this.
 

Little Ming

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To make money?

Why is it the last company you'd expect? They publish books.

It's another income stream for them.

That's my reaction too. They want to make more money; it's that simple. That's why I'm glad we have AW, P&E and Writer Beware.

I do not really have a problem with a trade publisher also owning a publishing services company. I do have a problem with a trade publisher owning a vanity press. From what I know of Author Solutions, their subsidiaries cross the line into the latter worryingly often.

As Old Hack says, there are certainly better ways of assisting self publishers than offering expensive and dubious marketing services.

Hm. I think I would be okay with it if they were very clear they were a vanity publisher. But, then again from some of our threads in Bewares vanity publishers tend not to be that honest, Big 5 or not.
 

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I think I would be okay with it if they were very clear they were a vanity publisher.

Really I think there's no acceptable way to be a vanity press, because what I think of as a v.p. is one where they are pretending that the books they publish are in some way equivalent to trade published books. A v.p. is always in some sense deceptive, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Little Ming

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Really I think there's no acceptable way to be a vanity press, because what I think of as a v.p. is one where they are pretending that the books they publish are in some way equivalent to trade published books. A v.p. is always in some sense deceptive, as far as I'm concerned.

You're right, especially about the bold parts. But, how do I put this... theoretically, if vanity publishers were clear and honest about what they did, and there were still people willing to publish with them, I would be okay with that. But I understand in the real world vanities do rely on pretending and deception to make their money.

Hopefully, that made sense. :)
 

KMTolan

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Purely business. The big publishers have a streamlined methodology for printing material. Initially, this may have been to service their books but as was pointed out, a revenue stream is not to be ignored. You can also offer print services. Oddly enough, many of the "vanity presses" also offer print services to smaller presses who use them expressly for that and don't care about their other business model.

Kerry
 

alexaherself

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Forgive my pedantry, but "Random Penguin" doesn't actually own Author Solutions: they're both separately owned by Pearson PLC. Pearson also owns other print/publishing-related companies none of which has any real operational connection with "Random Penguin": in other words, it's just another profitable business (and related to the holding company's primary interests).
 

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Forgive my pedantry, but "Random Penguin" doesn't actually own Author Solutions: they're both separately owned by Pearson PLC. Pearson also owns other print/publishing-related companies none of which has any real operational connection with "Random Penguin": in other words, it's just another profitable business (and related to the holding company's primary interests).

That was what I thought, too, but AS's boss reports directly to John Makinson of Penguin. It's part of the Penguin org, not off to one side.
 

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I have an opinion on the matter but I will not state it.

No way in tarnation am I gonna say anything critical about big publishers as these.

They are great and terrific and beyond criticism !

:chair
 

Filigree

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Ken, be critical, but frame it either in the form of an obvious opinion, or something you can back up with observable facts.

I think it's shameful that vanity presses have teamed up with Big Five publishers. I know there is supposed to be a clear legal separation between the vanity ops and the commercial publisher, but let's face it: that's probably as effective a divide as the one between American political candidates and their Superpac fund operators.

Even if the Big Five are not forwarding slushpile manuscripts or their authors' contact info to the associated vanity publishers, the latter are most certainly using their business links to the Big Five companies as advertising material.

I was at the Tucson Festival of the Book this last weekend, and both America Star (formerly Publish America) and AuthorHouse had big booths doing brisk outreach.

The vanity publishers are goldmines for parent companies: their target audience is often ignorant of how publishing *should* work, fanatically loyal to the first 'publisher' who gives them the time of day, and willing to pony up thousands of dollars to publish books that may never sell a single copy in the retail market. All for a dream of income as solid as that from most multi-level marketing schemes, or just the bragging rights to say 'I'm published!' (Most people don't know enough to ask 'How were you published?')

Two or three years ago, I was a lot more outraged about this. Now, after a sustained legal battle I can't talk about yet, and meeting too many vanity-published authors who happily defend their decision, I just have to shrug.

The information is out there to help them make informed decisions, from the US government to Consumer Reports on down to forums like this, Writer Beware, and Preditors & Editors. If these authors can't manage basic research, then they might just be precisely where they deserve to be.

Yes. That's harsh and cold. But it's how the world works.
 

Ken

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Ken, be critical, but frame it either in the form of an obvious opinion, or something you can back up with observable facts.

Thnx for the encouragement; gulp.

Like you, I believe that if writers are gonna be that gullible then they sorta deserve what they get. There are limits of course. Any outright deception or false advertising is out. Not to say that vanities run by these publishers are. I really hope not. These publishers put out a lot of great books. I've come to trust them and hope one day to maybe, possibly write for one.

Reputation is far more important than a few extra bucks in revenue. Lose the former and no matter how big you are your business is going to suffer.
 
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jjdebenedictis

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I just wanted to say I love how unanimously writers refuse to say "Penguin Random House" when they could say "Random Penguin" instead. **hugs you all** :D
 

AdamNeymars

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To make money?

There are other ways for the Big Publishers to make money beside from exploiting unsuspecting writers.

Why is it the last company you'd expect? They publish books.

Publishers make money from readers. They publish books. Readers buy them.

Vanity publishers make money from authors. That's where the majority of their revenue come from.
 

AdamNeymars

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Forgive my pedantry, but "Random Penguin" doesn't actually own Author Solutions: they're both separately owned by Pearson PLC. Pearson also owns other print/publishing-related companies none of which has any real operational connection with "Random Penguin": in other words, it's just another profitable business (and related to the holding company's primary interests).

The first thing an unsuspecting writer will see when they go to authorsolutions.com is

Author Solutions, A Penguin Random House Company.

Author Solutions have been using Author Solutions, A Penguin Random House Company in their media releases, emails and ads.
 

mccardey

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Why do Big Publishers feel the need to operate/own vanity presses?

Vanity?


:ROFL:


ETA: Yes, yes I laugh at my own jokes. Bite me.
 

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I have an opinion on the matter but I will not state it.

No way in tarnation am I gonna say anything critical about big publishers as these.

They are great and terrific and beyond criticism !

:chair

If you don't want to say something then don't. But telling us that you have an opinion but you're not going to tell us? Why say anything at all?

There are other ways for the Big Publishers to make money beside from exploiting unsuspecting writers.



Publishers make money from readers. They publish books. Readers buy them.

Vanity publishers make money from authors. That's where the majority of their revenue come from.

I agree, Adam. That's exactly the difference. I think it was Jonathon Clifford who came up with the term "vanity publishing" in the first place, and your summary matches his.

The first thing an unsuspecting writer will see when they go to authorsolutions.com is

Author Solutions, A Penguin Random House Company.

Author Solutions have been using Author Solutions, A Penguin Random House Company in their media releases, emails and ads.

I agree it's inappropriate. But they are part of Random Penguin, so while I agree that writers who know no better are going to make incorrect assumptions from this, I don't think that legally it's misleading. Gah.

The problem there isn't with the parent company, but with AuthorSolutions which is the one exploiting this link.

As I said before, there are much better ways in which publishers could provide services to writers who want to self publish. But it would involve a little effort and involvement from them: with AuthorSolutions, Random Penguin bought a ready-made package which they didn't have to get involved with at all.

We've had discussions about this before, I'm sure. I shall link-hunt if I have time.
 
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