God is Good (Versus the Guy in the Sky)

Chrissy · Mar 3, 2014

Following is a facebook post from my nephew, who was raised the same as me, religiously speaking (maybe worse) and who is now raising somewhat (?) similar questions as the OP:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Thought it might be relevant to the thread. God, at least in my experience, is seen as all those "omni" things... power, knowledge, foresight etc., etc. Why do we do that? Why is that a requirement?

(I moseyed in here contemplating posting--as a new thread--a spiel I'd written... re: my recent thoughts about God, or not God, and how people look at things who don't believe in God. I really want to know. There is some seriously angsty stuff that comes from being raised in a particular religion and taught said religion as fact, and then coming to doubt it. I'm thinking other people could relate. Oh and also it really sucks.

)

robjvargas · Mar 3, 2014

I reject those questions, Chrissy. They make an interesting mental exercise, but they establish nothing about any god, much less "The" God.

The questions presume to know all the motivations there are for how a being reacts given the power to act.

"Evil is bad. God allows evil. God is bad."

Or, just maybe, God realized that free will must come with choices in order to be free will. If a god steps in and assigns a limit to the choices, then that god hasn't actually presented choices at all.

So yes, God has the power to stop evil. No, he hasn't done so. And no, that doesn't make him malevolent. Not necessarily.

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 4, 2014

Chrissy, your nephew's quotes are usually attributed to the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus. Although that is disputed.

It might be better that you start the thread you were thinking of. Kuwisdelu was asking a rather different question about gods as a general concept rather than God as a specific being. The questions don't really have a lot of overlap.

If you start the thread I can move the last few posts over to it.

ETA: Posts moved. Chrissy's real thread start is post #5

Chrissy · Mar 4, 2014

Okay, thanks Richard!

Chrissy · Mar 4, 2014

This might really not be all that fascinating to most people. But here goes.

I’ve been questioning what I believe for several years now. As some people know, I was raised in a very religious environment: church three times a week, speaking in tongues, faith healing, prosperity messages, Bible camps, and a healthy dose of the ‘you’re nothing but a sinner, saved by grace’ mentality. Satan was out to get me, but God would protect me and even bless me big time if I lived right and prayed correctly. Kind of a bizarre blend of a traditional Baptist denomination (Mom’s upbringing) and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement (Mom joined and Dad got saved when I was 6).

A couple decades ago, I rejected tongue-speaking and faith healing and being slain in the spirit and all that (to me) creepy stuff. I rejected televangelists – all of them, on principle, because of people like Jimmy Swaggart and, later, Benny Hinn. (Those voices filled my house throughout my childhood, and as recently as last week, I got ‘news’ of another ‘wonderful’ new ‘teacher’ on TV-- or maybe it was YouTube--from my dear parents. Whom I love very much and who truly are good, kind, loving people, but anyway.)

Just so people know where I started.

Ten years ago, I rejected much of the Old Testament as either inaccurate or irrelevant (at least literally).

Five years ago, I rejected much of the New Testament as (primarily) one author’s (successful) attempt to start his own worldwide religion… while often seeming to completely miss the salient points of his ‘savior’s’ message.

Which brings me to Jesus of Nazareth, whom I’ve recently been reading about from sources other than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I’ve often called myself a Red Letter Christian, but I can’t even really be certain that Jesus actually said—at least verbatim—any of it. I’m not confident that the authors didn’t turn Jesus into something he wasn’t, or at least embellish to the extent that it suited them.

In summary, I no longer believe in the infallibility of the Bible—not any of it, really, though I still appreciate and find value in some parts of it.

This has left me in a very precarious position, when it comes to God. My foundation of ‘why God is real’ is literally now dust and rubble.

Some Christians I know would now tsk, and tell me that’s what happens when you let in the doubt and let go of your faith. Well, I’m hoping I won’t burn in hell for it, and I’m past being intimidated by that line of thinking. I still want to get it right though, for myself.

I’m almost constantly asking myself these days: what do I believe? What, or who, do I believe in?

Here’s what I’ve come up with so far: I know that people are still seeking good, if not necessarily God. Sometimes they find it in Christianity, sometimes in Islam, sometimes in the Eastern religions, sometimes in themselves, in humanity, with the rejection of religion or God in general.

‘Good’ is a real concept. I guess people could deny that it actually ‘exists,’ in and of itself, but it’s… it’s like love and gratitude and peace and happiness. In itself it is intangible, sort of like God, but its effects can be produced and reproduced. Good is something I can seek. It is something I can pursue.

I suppose the definition of good, like God, is going to vary from person to person. Some people might have it totally wrong in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I can definitely say that I have complete confidence that good exists. I know it when I see it.

Here’s where I gets a little more esoteric. What if God is good? What if good is God? What if it’s that simple? Can it be that simple for me? Can I just live my life in pursuit of good, and not worry whether or not there happens to be a literal personification somewhere or everywhere? Or maybe humanity is the personification. And also dogs, but anyway.

Can I just completely forget about the hereafter or worshipping the right deity or saying the right prayers (none of which I was ever good at anyway), and just search, pursue, appreciate and be thankful for good?

Can I trust myself to keep knowing it when I see it, if I were to add that extra ‘o’ and drop the capital letter?

A very cool person once supposedly said, “Seek and ye shall find.” Can I believe that?

I’m thinking I can, and the rest of it… well, it just doesn’t matter to me anymore. All the internal (and sometimes external) debating, the questioning, the mental exercises are getting tiring, and none of it seems to be anything more than wheel spinning for me. It's not productive. Time shouldn't be wasted like that, I'm thinking.

Thanks for reading

RichardGarfinkle · Mar 4, 2014

Here’s where I gets a little more esoteric. What if God is good? What if good is God? What if it’s that simple? Can it be that simple for me? Can I just live my life in pursuit of good, and not worry whether or not there happens to be a literal personification somewhere or everywhere? Or maybe humanity is the personification. And also dogs, but anyway.

Can I just completely forget about the hereafter or worshipping the right deity or saying the right prayers (none of which I was ever good at anyway), and just search, pursue, appreciate and be thankful for good?

Can I trust myself to keep knowing it when I see it, if I were to add that extra ‘o’ and drop the capital letter?

This to me is an interesting set of questions. Apart from the last one I would say the answer is yes for many people (I'll come back to the last question in a bit). The pursuit of good without the presumption of a spiritual infrastructure and a reward and punishment system is something many of us seek to do. Whether you are one of those people you will have to find out for yourself.

Before going on it's probably necessary for me to offer my own definition of Good.

To me Good is the alleviation of unnecessary suffering. Most of these fall into a small set of general rubrics.

Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Shelter the homeless. Heal the sick. Teach the ignorant.

But these rubrics have more sophisticated implications. A life spent researching how to grow more and better food is a life spent doing good because it helps future generations to feed the hungry. More generally, the more we understand of how the world works and what can and can't be done in it, the more capable we become of finding good actions and doing them. I can elaborate this arbitrarily, but it would go far off the point.

If someone philosophically challenges me on why I would do good without a divinity ordering me to, I'm likely to give them a dubious look because their question is shot full of flawed premises, which I'm happy to deconstruct if desired. But the simplest answer is that humans are really bad at living alone. We rely on each other whether we admit it or not, and we are deeply dependent on the works and studies of those who came before us in their experiments and researches. So doing what good we can is fulfilling human needs as best we can.

To return to the last question.

Can I trust myself to keep knowing it when I see it

I don't think any human can be trusted to know good when they see it. It's all too easy to be blinded by assumption and prejudice. I think we need a solid level of self mistrust and questioning as well as conversing with others and trying to see things from multiple perspectives before we can figure out what might do good.

I think we also need to accept the limitations of reality. The world does not look and act like a world that is made for us. It's a world we can live in if we work at it, but whatever we do will have unintended consequences. I think it's unwise to not question our own judgements.

robjvargas · Mar 4, 2014

Chrissy said:
This might really not be all that fascinating to most people. But here goes.

I’ve been questioning what I believe for several years now. As some people know, I was raised in a very religious environment: church three times a week, speaking in tongues, faith healing, prosperity messages, Bible camps, and a healthy dose of the ‘you’re nothing but a sinner, saved by grace’ mentality. Satan was out to get me, but God would protect me and even bless me big time if I lived right and prayed correctly. Kind of a bizarre blend of a traditional Baptist denomination (Mom’s upbringing) and the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement (Mom joined and Dad got saved when I was 6).

A couple decades ago, I rejected tongue-speaking and faith healing and being slain in the spirit and all that (to me) creepy stuff. I rejected televangelists – all of them, on principle, because of people like Jimmy Swaggart and, later, Benny Hinn. (Those voices filled my house throughout my childhood, and as recently as last week, I got ‘news’ of another ‘wonderful’ new ‘teacher’ on TV-- or maybe it was YouTube--from my dear parents. Whom I love very much and who truly are good, kind, loving people, but anyway.)

Just so people know where I started.

Interesting, Chrissy. My family is pretty Tex-Mex Roman Catholic, if you understand what that means. Not quite as life encompassing as your background, but pretty intense in its belief in The Bible.

Chrissy said:
Ten years ago, I rejected much of the Old Testament as either inaccurate or irrelevant (at least literally).

Five years ago, I rejected much of the New Testament as (primarily) one author’s (successful) attempt to start his own worldwide religion… while often seeming to completely miss the salient points of his ‘savior’s’ message.

Which brings me to Jesus of Nazareth, whom I’ve recently been reading about from sources other than Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I’ve often called myself a Red Letter Christian, but I can’t even really be certain that Jesus actually said—at least verbatim—any of it. I’m not confident that the authors didn’t turn Jesus into something he wasn’t, or at least embellish to the extent that it suited them.

In summary, I no longer believe in the infallibility of the Bible—not any of it, really, though I still appreciate and find value in some parts of it.

This has left me in a very precarious position, when it comes to God. My foundation of ‘why God is real’ is literally now dust and rubble.

Gretchen, are you able to separate the story from the message? That's what happened with me. I never felt anything from the rituals of the church. I saw the golden chalices and fine silk robes and expensive building of the actual church, and wondered why God would need all that fluff.

A couple of personal events happened for me that solidified my belief in God as I understand him (again, convenient pronoun). But what I saw and heard from the church just didn't fit.

But those doubts were never directed at God. God is as real to me now as he's ever been.

Chrissy said:
Some Christians I know would now tsk, and tell me that’s what happens when you let in the doubt and let go of your faith. Well, I’m hoping I won’t burn in hell for it, and I’m past being intimidated by that line of thinking. I still want to get it right though, for myself.

I’m almost constantly asking myself these days: what do I believe? What, or who, do I believe in?

Here’s what I’ve come up with so far: I know that people are still seeking good, if not necessarily God. Sometimes they find it in Christianity, sometimes in Islam, sometimes in the Eastern religions, sometimes in themselves, in humanity, with the rejection of religion or God in general.

‘Good’ is a real concept. I guess people could deny that it actually ‘exists,’ in and of itself, but it’s… it’s like love and gratitude and peace and happiness. In itself it is intangible, sort of like God, but its effects can be produced and reproduced. Good is something I can seek. It is something I can pursue.

I would caution you about this. It's absolutely fair to seek guidance from what others have found. I just worry that you wind u following what others say, which is kind of what got you to this crisis of faith in the first place, isn't it?

Chrissy said:
I suppose the definition of good, like God, is going to vary from person to person. Some people might have it totally wrong in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I can definitely say that I have complete confidence that good exists. I know it when I see it.

I'd respond that I don't think it varies as much as we might assume. When we get to the details and rituals of faith, maybe. But the broad ideas of expressing love and respect for man and life, I think we're all far more alike, even in places where the actions don't meet the ideas.

Chrissy said:
Here’s where I gets a little more esoteric. What if God is good? What if good is God? What if it’s that simple? Can it be that simple for me? Can I just live my life in pursuit of good, and not worry whether or not there happens to be a literal personification somewhere or everywhere? Or maybe humanity is the personification. And also dogs, but anyway.

I don't think the answers to those questions exclude any of the others. Whatever those answers might be. I could tell you what my faith tells me. But, in the end, you have to find the faith for yourself. That, I think, is an intensely personal experience for which one answer does not fit all.

Chrissy said:
Can I just completely forget about the hereafter or worshipping the right deity or saying the right prayers (none of which I was ever good at anyway), and just search, pursue, appreciate and be thankful for good?

Can I trust myself to keep knowing it when I see it, if I were to add that extra ‘o’ and drop the capital letter?

If God (or whatever concept winds up speaking to you) is as omniscient and loving as all the faiths say, and I believe that God is so, then God knows our faith and our love regardless of the rituals or methods we use to express it to him.

Chrissy said:
A very cool person once supposedly said, “Seek and ye shall find.” Can I believe that?

I’m thinking I can, and the rest of it… well, it just doesn’t matter to me anymore. All the internal (and sometimes external) debating, the questioning, the mental exercises are getting tiring, and none of it seems to be anything more than wheel spinning for me. It's not productive. Time shouldn't be wasted like that, I'm thinking.

Thanks for reading

I think I need to express a little bit of the events that, for me, revealed my relationship with God.

God hears our prayers, but even a loving God isn't always going to give us the answer we want. My moments of "contact" with God involved one of each. A yes, and a no.

Yes: A small moment in High School. I was on a speech team. I had one I'd been using all season. it wasn't going anywhere. One meet, I hit everything. Pacing, interaction with the audience, confidence in my voice, like that. I sat aside before awards and just begged God for a good result. And I got this feeling of certainty. It didn't feel like anything internal. It was only a sixth place ribbon. But it was the something.

No: This hurt. A girl. We got close over the summer. She got a job, and one night, I look out at her house from my window, and she's making out with some guy. More begging. Some way to fix this. I got that feeling of certainty again. A dark and empty feeling that she was gone. I just knew I was being told.

No one has any reason to believe me. There are explanations without a God in them that fully explain both moments. But I know what I felt and how I felt it. I know that his presence makes sense. To me. I know that what he's given me has meaning. To me. And likely to no one else. I'm fine with that.

I guess that's all a *very* long-winded way to say that the truth is within ourselves, and might involve experiences and evidence that won't fit into scientific or rational discussion. If faith were rational, it wouldn't be faith.

Chrissy · Mar 4, 2014

RichardGarfinkle said:
I don't think any human can be trusted to know good when they see it. It's all too easy to be blinded by assumption and prejudice. I think we need a solid level of self mistrust and questioning as well as conversing with others and trying to see things from multiple perspectives before we can figure out what might do good.

I think we also need to accept the limitations of reality. The world does not look and act like a world that is made for us. It's a world we can live in if we work at it, but whatever we do will have unintended consequences. I think it's unwise to not question our own judgements.

It's really interesting how differently you and robjvargas answered that particular question--can I trust myself?

FWIW, I don't mean that whatever flies into my head should be trusted. I also have learned (and often have to be reminded

) that whenever strong negative emotions are involved, for me, decisions in those moments should not be acted upon.

There need to be a couple of things, I think: personal honesty, and real information that the honest person can work with. Sometimes that information comes from experience. Sometimes it comes from other people. But on a basic level, it has to resonate within as being true. Otherwise, like robjvargas said:

robjvargas said:
It's absolutely fair to seek guidance from what others have found. I just worry that you wind up following what others say, which is kind of what got you to this crisis of faith in the first place, isn't it?

I thank you both for your posts, for the time you took to read and respond and share some of your experiences.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 5, 2014

Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

There's a Buddhist line: There is no good or bad, but if you have a choice, do good.

Can we see it ourselves? Yes, if we let ourselves. Does that mean we won't make mistakes sometimes? No.

Good and evil are part of a continuum. And God is the continuum and more than the continuum. So for me, the questions about why doesn't God stop evil are not questions at all. Although I see how they would be if you're not looking at the picture from a vast vantage point.

Another way to think of it. If you write your novel without conflict, will anyone read it? Probably not. If you add conflict, does that make you evil? No. Without pain, would anyone seek someone better? Would anyone seek GOOD? Probably not.

Some people don't get worship. (It's possible that some brains aren't wired for it.) There are, of course, huge varieties of ways worship can work. The point of them is not to appease an angry god, but to connect with that inner point of focus that leads you to inner vastness. If you can get there, it's a wonderful thing, I can attest.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal, raised by born-again intellectuals, now a Sikh

Arcadia Divine · Mar 5, 2014

This might be off topic here but I feel it's important to remember that while a particular god or religion may be popularly viewed as evil but that doesn't mean it actually is evil. I feel it's important to view evil from the eyes of the people that worship a god overwhelmingly considered evil.

Example: Almost everyone I meet in real life and even on the internet that say they are christians or catholics view paganism and wiccan as inherently evil and that includes the patrons they worship but how evil is it really? Is it evil just because we think so? For all they know it could be that practitioners of those religions view christianity and catholicism as evil because of the way orthodox religion tends to brand the occult religions.

I've seen priests and ordinary practitioners enforce that branding and do everything from harass to beat people that practice a religion that is commonly viewed as occult and yes I know for a fact that is the reason why because of what they said during those incidents (I refuse to say what was said publicly. If people want to know they can PM me and I'll tell them that way). Seeing that happen to someone really made me think about this from a neutral perspective (that's also the reason I refuse to be religious).

The point behind my passionate rant is try not to worry about what other people think of your god or religion and worry about devoting yourself to your god(s) or religion in ways you deem appropriate. It's probably normal to question your devotion to a religion but if you question that too much, stop and think about what led you to feel that way.

Edit: I don't view any god as evil but rather the worshiper that may or may not take religious matters into their own hands.

benbradley · Mar 5, 2014

robjvargas said:
I reject those questions, Chrissy. They make an interesting mental exercise, but they establish nothing about any god, much less "The" God.

The questions presume to know all the motivations there are for how a being reacts given the power to act.

"Evil is bad. God allows evil. God is bad."

This is pure logic, and by everything I know, it HAS to work (else nothing in the Universe is trustable).

On the other hand, I learned "The Lord works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform." When it comes to God, I was taught (maybe not literally this, but it what I learned) that faith trumps everything, including possible "human" inventions such as logic and arithmetic (such as 2+2=4). God does things for reasons that are beyond human comprehension, so it's a waste of time to try to analyze God or His actions - we're better off just accepting them.

I've since rejected this, for several reasons. It's hard to distinguish between what are God's actions and what are other things that "just happen," though in some interpretations EVERYTHING happens due to "God's will." Also, it's always OTHER PEOPLE and their writings that attribute this or that thing to God, and those people and their writings aren't always correct (they can't all be correct, as sometimes they say contradictory things, unless you go back to relying on the Mysterious Ways thing - "utilize, don't analyze!").

Or, just maybe, God realized that free will must come with choices in order to be free will. If a god steps in and assigns a limit to the choices, then that god hasn't actually presented choices at all.

So yes, God has the power to stop evil. No, he hasn't done so. And no, that doesn't make him malevolent. Not necessarily.

This still leaves the question that inspired the title of Harold Kushner's popular book (goodness, I read a lot of this stuff 20-25 years ago): why do bad things happen to good people?

Arcadia Divine · Mar 5, 2014

benbradley said:
This still leaves the question that inspired the title of Harold Kushner's popular book (goodness, I read a lot of this stuff 20-25 years ago): why do bad things happen to good people?

I'm going to try and answer the question even though it really wasn't directed to me.

Bad things happen to good people because not everyone believes in the things you believe. The person may have the best most pure intent imaginable but for as many people that agree, there will likely be almost as many that disagree. Even if god was capable of forcing his will on others, 7 some odd billion people is a hell of a lot of people to keep track of for anybody regardless if he created those beings.

kuwisdelu · Mar 5, 2014

benbradley said:
why do bad things happen to good people?

Good and bad are only subjective perceptions.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 5, 2014

Arcadia Divine said:
This might be off topic here but I feel it's important to remember that while a particular god or religion may be popularly viewed as evil but that doesn't mean it actually is evil. I feel it's important to view evil from the eyes of the people that worship a god overwhelmingly considered evil.

Example: Almost everyone I meet in real life and even on the internet that say they are christians or catholics view paganism and wiccan as inherently evil and that includes the patrons they worship but how evil is it really? Is it evil just because we think so? For all they know it could be that practitioners of those religions view christianity and catholicism as evil because of the way orthodox religion tends to brand the occult religions.

.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

My husband likes to tell of a Wiccan he knew who said the underlying tenets of her religion were "love God, harm none." Not evil by my standards.

Just like Jews don't murder Christian children the way Christian folks thought in the Middle Ages.

Sikhs are not terrorists.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

robjvargas · Mar 5, 2014

benbradley said:
This is pure logic, and by everything I know, it HAS to work (else nothing in the Universe is trustable).

I submit that no, it's not. In fact, it's illogical. There are many more choices than a mere support for evil.

Arcadia Divine · Mar 5, 2014

Siri Kirpal said:
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

My husband likes to tell of a Wiccan he knew who said the underlying tenets of her religion were "love God, harm none." Not evil by my standards.

Just like Jews don't murder Christian children the way Christian folks thought in the Middle Ages.

Sikhs are not terrorists.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Makes me wonder why people have to fight for this. I wonder if the people I witness doing the opposite research this beforehand. It shouldn't take to much to find the truth. I don't know anymore.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 5, 2014

Arcadia Divine said:
Makes me wonder why people have to fight for this. I wonder if the people I witness doing the opposite research this beforehand. It shouldn't take to much to find the truth. I don't know anymore.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I haven't noticed that people who behave badly towards members of other faiths have made an effort to find out much about the reality of that faith.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

robjvargas · Mar 6, 2014

Siri Kirpal said:
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

I haven't noticed that people who behave badly towards members of other faiths have made an effort to find out much about the reality of that faith.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Or of their own.

JimmyB27 · Mar 6, 2014

robjvargas said:
Or, just maybe, God realized that free will must come with choices in order to be free will. If a god steps in and assigns a limit to the choices, then that god hasn't actually presented choices at all.

What about things that aren't exactly evil, but nonetheless cause immeasurable pain and suffering? I'm thinking of things like cancer or tornadoes. I don't think anyone would argue that a tornado is exercising its free will when it destroys a city, and it seems like a god who would create such a thing is not a nice chap.

kuwisdelu · Mar 6, 2014

JimmyB27 said:
What about things that aren't exactly evil, but nonetheless cause immeasurable pain and suffering? I'm thinking of things like cancer or tornadoes. I don't think anyone would argue that a tornado is exercising its free will when it destroys a city, and it seems like a god who would create such a thing is not a nice chap.

Is it evil for a lion to eat a lamb?

We are members of nature, which is ever-changing, and sometimes change is swift and violent. But a world without change is a dead world. There can be no happiness without memories of pain.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 6, 2014

robjvargas said:
Or of their own.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

You nailed it!

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

robjvargas · Mar 6, 2014

JimmyB27 said:
What about things that aren't exactly evil, but nonetheless cause immeasurable pain and suffering? I'm thinking of things like cancer or tornadoes. I don't think anyone would argue that a tornado is exercising its free will when it destroys a city, and it seems like a god who would create such a thing is not a nice chap.

So God can only be God if everything is nice and easy? The world cannot have any challenges? That's the only way that makes sense? God only loves you if he makes it nice for you?

I do not agree. Without changes, without challenges, we stagnate. In fact, if life is all plush living and happy puppies, how would we know that this is happiness? I'm not trying to be facetious here. We define our state of being by contrast. Life is good now, or not, because it was worse (or not) a different time.

Volcanoes have wiped out whole civilizations. They've also been instrumental in the creation of some of our most fertile land. In the US Midwest, it's weather. That same weather that floods and spins and blows, it's created "The Breadbasket of The World."

So yes, things happen that hurt, even kill, but many of those events also bring new life and renewal.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 6, 2014

JimmyB27 said:
What about things that aren't exactly evil, but nonetheless cause immeasurable pain and suffering? I'm thinking of things like cancer or tornadoes. I don't think anyone would argue that a tornado is exercising its free will when it destroys a city, and it seems like a god who would create such a thing is not a nice chap.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Without death, life doesn't exist. But even if it did, life without death would have no savor. Think of all the people who start telling friends and family how much they love them when those friends and family are about to die. Think of the incentive to do good when knowing the end approaches.

Disasters create heroes. Disasters create caring in communities (sometimes). Without wildfires, certain wildflowers wouldn't bloom. The Egyptian civilization was built on floods. So, no, natural disasters don't make me think that God is an uncaring chap. (I don't go in for anthropomorphic gods anyway.)

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

JimmyB27 · Mar 7, 2014

robjvargas said:
So God can only be God if everything is nice and easy? The world cannot have any challenges? That's the only way that makes sense? God only loves you if he makes it nice for you?

I do not agree. Without changes, without challenges, we stagnate. In fact, if life is all plush living and happy puppies, how would we know that this is happiness? I'm not trying to be facetious here. We define our state of being by contrast. Life is good now, or not, because it was worse (or not) a different time.

Volcanoes have wiped out whole civilizations. They've also been instrumental in the creation of some of our most fertile land. In the US Midwest, it's weather. That same weather that floods and spins and blows, it's created "The Breadbasket of The World."

So yes, things happen that hurt, even kill, but many of those events also bring new life and renewal.

Seems to me like the creator of the universe could have set things up such that we don't stagnate without suffering.

Arcadia Divine · Mar 7, 2014

JimmyB27 said:
Seems to me like the creator of the universe could have set things up such that we don't stagnate without suffering.

I wasn't going to respond to this conversation, but what the heck. You don't get it. It's not possible. Things work the way they work for a reason. If the humans are stupid enough, and we are, to thrust themselves into the middle of how nature works then we deserve to get burned. Who knows, maybe we'll learn to not do it next time (we never do).

Edit: Anyone who tries to change the way nature works doesn't even get tough love from me.

God is Good (Versus the Guy in the Sky)

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

Nurture Phoenixes

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

Nurture Phoenixes

Bright and Early for the Daily Race

Swan in Process

It's a doggy dog world

Revolutionize the World

Swan in Process

Swan in Process

Hoopy frood

Revolutionize the World

Swan in Process

Swan in Process

Hoopy frood