The Usual Word Count Question

It's hard to say. The thing you don't want to do is cut just to conform to a word count guideline that's kind of mushy. You might have a story that needs to be 120,000 words, or maybe it needs to be shorter.

How many times have you/your betas been over the manuscript? My own agent-landing literary/mainstream clocked in at 120,000 words on the first draft. I would have told you on completing it that it 'needed' to be that long, but I read it again and found 10,000 more words that could come out. Then it went to betas and I found almost 5,000 more words that weren't needed. Would it have still suckered won over my agent at 120K? I'm not sure.

The question of word count may matter more with regards to genre than debut/veteran status (noting, of course, that big hitters with a proven track record get more leeway than the rest of us). Hopefully, someone with more insider knowledge will pop in to answer you.

Have you sent it out to the most ruthless betas you can find? (Ones who are not your friends or family members.) If all your betas think your book is super tight and amazing and ready to go, head on over to QLH. Your query can sometimes reveal if you have a tendency to overwrite.

My debut had two agents wanting it at 146K. We've cut it down another 6 or so, but it will go out to editors at 140. She says as she's been priming, no one has flinched at the number.

I don't think it matters as much as you might think, especially if you can get them with the rest of the query and the sample pages.

Probably no one is going to complain about 120k of tight, brilliant writing. It's just when you throw out a number like that, and you're a first-time author, people automatically start thinking the book is that long because you haven't edited enough. There's no trust established. But your pages will speak for themselves one way or another.

My impression is that this varies hugely, according to the genre, and that 120k is probably significantly too long for "mainstream/literary".

Brett Marie said:

I've read that agents were loath to consider a piece over 100k by a first-time author

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Yes: I've seen and heard many agents saying it, very recently, of "mainstream/literary".

There isn't a clearcut "right answer", I think? Which is why we discuss it so often. It's about "odds".

It's all very well for people to say that if your book "needs" to be 120,000 words, it needs to be 120,000 words.

I think that if your book really "needs" to be 120,000 words, then it may help significantly to get the odds on your side if that's the second book you submit, rather than the first. With the first, submitting a different book, which doesn't need to be over 100,000 words, is what I'd want to try, myself.

100K is just the average length of an adult novel. I'm not sure where the idea that agents won't take anything over 100K from a new writer comes from, but it isn't from agents, unless the novel fits into some sub-genre where publisher won't take a long novel, and these are pretty rare.

If agents never took anything over 100K from a first time novelist, a bunch of bestsellers would never have seen the light of day.

But finding out what agents want is really going at it bass ackwards. Finding out what publishers want is usually a heck of a lot easier, and that IS what agents want. If publisher's guidelines all have a firm limit of 100k for your type of novel, you probably don't want to query an agent with something longer.

Most often, however, you'll find that publishers who take 100K novels are looking for a range where the 100K is in the middle.

And the truth is, some first novels in your genre have been one hell of a lot longer than 100k.

Jamesaritchie said:

I'm not sure where the idea that agents won't take anything over 100K from a new writer comes from

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A closely related idea (and one that we were discussing here until your responses so significantly changed the parameters) is that agents are less likely to take anything as long as 120,000 words in a "mainstream/literary" genre. And that's simply factual. It's also readily confirmed by agents' websites and by conversations with them.

Jamesaritchie said:

If agents never took anything over 100K from a first time novelist, a bunch of bestsellers would never have seen the light of day.

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That's entirely true, but not actually relevant to this conversation, James: nobody here has suggested that no agent ever takes anything over 100K from a first-time novelist. As explained above, it's simply about one's desire, willingness and ability to try to get the odds in one's favour, rather than against one, when approaching an activity with such a low overall success-rate. First-time authors submitting a 120,000-word MS to agents as "mainstream/literary" are stacking the deck against themselves. You may not like it; you may resent it; you may wish it were otherwise; you may not even believe it. None of that changes its reality, which is both objective and independently verifiable.

Brett Marie said:

I just hacked my 138k-word mainstream/literary novel down to a leaner 120k, and I'm wondering if the bloodletting can stop. I've read that agents were loath to consider a piece over 100k by a first-time author (one blogger charitably upped that count to 109k), but all of the sources I've found are years old.

Have things changed at all with the rise of the ebook? Is it less important nowadays for a book to have fewer pages, and thus keep production costs down? Or must I whittle on until I'm at 100k, 90k, or even 80k, before I'm safe? I can do it if I have to, but with all the blood loss, my novel is starting to look pale.

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Hi Brett,

I'm one part cynic and one part Devil's Advocate, but all the stuff I underlined sets me to a somewhat dubious mindset. I'm not saying your book can or should be trimmed, I have no idea, but I DO feel fairly secure in saying more than half the folks who have this question, particularly with the "gee, do I gotta?" tone, can indeed cut a lot of the fat they've been loathe to touch before. As Putt said (and several others) ruthless betas can help. It isn't their baby so they have a bit of distance. See what you get out of a couple of them, and then make your decision....

While I was researching Chris Parris-Lamb, I found this article. He sold a debut novel with 900 pages! I guess if you are damn good, it doesn't matter.

But that said, I do think the word count will scare many agents away. Like others have said, depends on genre too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/b...ebut-novel-fetches-nearly-2-million.html?_r=0

peanut said:

While I was researching Chris Parris-Lamb, I found this article. He sold a debut novel with 900 pages! I guess if you are damn good, it doesn't matter.

But that said, I do think the word count will scare many agents away. Like others have said, depends on genre too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/b...ebut-novel-fetches-nearly-2-million.html?_r=0

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from said article:

"...was written by Garth Risk Hallberg, a 34-year-old who has contributed to The New York Times Book Review and The Millions. "

anything can happen, always, but beware outliers, especially those with special circumstances like a pre-existing track record

Brett Marie said:

Got it. I admit that my current betas may not be as ruthless as they need to be. Thanks for the tips!

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Before asking, I checked to see if you'd posted anything in SYW. I didn't see any critiques saying it was too wordy or meandered too much, but they seemed to like your 'voice'.

Perhaps a ruthless Beta could help with editing out entire scenes or something if you were determined to get the word count down, or you might be one of those 'exceptions' and you don't know for sure until you try.

I've always thought myself that the 100K max was a rule more in YA, or certain types of genre fiction, and with Fantasy and Literary there is often more leeway. I'd imagine if an agent really likes it, the word count won't deter them, but if they've put it in the 'maybe' category it would likely tip them the other way.

I forget where I read this (Learn to Write with Uncle Jim thread maybe?) but you should usually cut 10% of your novel after it's finished, to get rid of bloat and yet not bleed the thing to death.

I'd personally recommend sending it in if you feel that it is ready to, pardon the pun, 'rock and roll'.
I think if they get into it in relatively short order, then they will lose track of the word count. It's only when it comes down to a 'draw' that word count can kill your baby. And even then, there's always self publishing.

benluby said:

It's only when it comes down to a 'draw' that word count can kill your baby.

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I respectfully disagree, because word-count can even prevent your baby from getting as far as draw-eligibility.

If you think you can "whittle". Whittle

stormie said:

I forget where I read this (Learn to Write with Uncle Jim thread maybe?) but you should usually cut 10% of your novel after it's finished, to get rid of bloat and yet not bleed the thing to death.

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I don't know where else it might be, but Stephen King mentions receiving this advice in On Writing and has used it since then on his work.

alexaherself said:

I respectfully disagree, because word-count can even prevent your baby from getting as far as draw-eligibility.

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I've heard this as well.

you can overcome this with an incredible query, etc., but if it is long enough to be significantly out of "the norm" for a given genre you are making your own hurdle higher. Sometimes there's very good reason to do so, without question, but it seems foolish to pretend it isn't there. All things considered, a longer book will look like a harder sell and greater risk. So if you can show the risk is worth it then you should go for it, but yes, agents, and editors, do look at length.

I've heard this piece of advice before, and I for one have taken to heart, "Don't assume you're the exception to the rule." Yeah, large books from debut authors have been published, but I would wager that even more have never even been read because of the word count. Typically fantasy novels are allowed higher word count to allow for world building but otherwise it tends to be shorter. http://www.writersdigest.com/editor...ovels-and-childrens-books-the-definitive-post

kenpochick said:

I would wager that even more have never even been read because of the word count.

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I agree. This point illustrates one of the (many) ways, I think, in which entirely well-intentioned and even strictly accurate forum information can actually do people a disservice: it's all too easy for people to read reassuring sentiments mentioning one or two extremely long first novels which made it to successful publication, and thereby fail to appreciate the extent to which they're stacking the deck against themselves by querying a work of a length which most agents and publishers instinctively consider inappropriate.