Light pollution in victorian England

WriterDude

Writer?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
4,177
Reaction score
230
Location
The North West
Not sure if anyone can answer this, but worth a shot.

How much of the sky could one expect to see in the night above a small Victorian town. On a clear night of course, with no moon, and only gas street lights?
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
Depends on how many lights there are in the town. And also where the town is.

TBH. you're more like to suffer smog pollution than light pollution. Especially if your story is set in late Victorian England. And in an industrial area. Where in England exactly is it set?
 
Last edited:

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
Not sure if anyone can answer this, but worth a shot.

How much of the sky could one expect to see in the night above a small Victorian town. On a clear night of course, with no moon, and only gas street lights?

Negligible, light pollution wasn't significant until electric lights became well established.

There are a few other related matters, such as how much smoke was pouring out of chimneys in that town. London was famous for its fog for a long time before light pollution became an issue, and Manchester and Birmingham and other towns had considerable pollution also.
 

Los Pollos Hermanos

Craving the next chocolate hit...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
480
Reaction score
36
Location
England
Sorry that I can't help with the Victorian aspect although, as has already been mentioned, the amount of pollution will have an effect.

I found this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/152...ondon-casts-light-on-Victorian-pollution.html

I can help with a couple of present day examples, for what it's worth:

1). My "bestie" lives in Swinton, about four miles NW of Manchester city centre. If you look towards the city at night, the sky literally glows orange.

2). My parents live in rural Shropshire. There are no streetlights for miles and, if there's cloud cover, you can't see your hand in front of your face.

LPH.
 
Last edited:

Bolero

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
106
Location
UK
Depends where the town is. If in or near an industrial area there were furnaces or kilns running all the time, flames belching out and lighting up the sky. There are some contemporary paintings of some of the areas.

See Coalbrookdale by Night
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalbrookdale_by_Night
 
Last edited:

snafu1056

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2013
Messages
819
Reaction score
88
Yeah, I think pollution pollution would be a bigger issue. They didnt call London "Old Smoke" for nothing.
 

Telergic

Overwriting
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
930
Reaction score
26
Location
Massachusetts
In late Victorian UK and the US they had electric arc lights that were too bright to look at and which many people complained about. Sometimes they were placed very high up, so as to cast as much illumination as possible over a wide area. In the heart of London this might have been a problem starting in the 1890s or so, I suppose. I don't know for sure how pervasive these lights were in London, but they did have them.

However, I agree that for the most part, industrial pollution would be a worse problem for sky visibility than light pollution, because gas lamps just don't cause as much light pollution, and arc lights certainly weren't on every street corner.

I would guesstimate that around 1850 the smog problem wouldn't be too bad except around some few big factory towns, but by 1880 or so any sizeable town that had an industrial economy would have a serious problem. Rural towns with no heavy industry might fare better, but at that point there was a lot of industrial build-up throughout the country, and even a completely bucolic little village might suffer some hazy skies from other industrial towns nearby.

But there must still have been some places -- Cornwall, some parts of coastal Wales, the more rugged and distant parts of Scotland, and others -- which enjoyed clear dark night skies.

Of course, even with no smog and no lights, the weather in most of Great Britain is such that there won't be all that many perfectly clear night skies in any event.
 
Last edited:

King Neptune

Banned
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
372
Location
The Oceans
In late Victorian UK and the US they had electric arc lights that were too bright to look at and which many people complained about. Sometimes they were placed very high up, so as to cast as much illumination as possible over a wide area. In the heart of London this might have been a problem starting in the 1890s or so, I suppose. I don't know for sure how pervasive these lights were in London, but they did have them.

However, I agree that for the most part, industrial pollution would be a worse problem for sky visibility than light pollution, because gas lamps just don't cause as much light pollution, and arc lights certainly weren't on every street corner.

I would guesstimate that around 1850 the smog problem wouldn't be too bad except around some few big factory towns, but by 1880 or so any sizeable town that had an industrial economy would have a serious problem. Rural towns with no heavy industry might fare better, but at that point there was a lot of industrial build-up throughout the country, and even a completely bucolic little village might suffer some hazy skies from other industrial towns nearby.

But there must still have been some places -- Cornwall, some parts of coastal Wales, the more rugged and distant parts of Scotland, and others -- which enjoyed clear dark night skies.

Of course, even with no smog and no lights, the weather in most of Great Britain is such that there won't be all that many perfectly clear night skies in any event.

Air pollution has been a problem in London since Medieval times. If you search around, you will find information about it, and there is a book with that title.
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-23/news/vw-10031_1_air-pollution-problem
I haven't looked into it recently, but I remember running across mentions of attempts to clean up the smokes, etc. of London for a few hundred years.
 

Telergic

Overwriting
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
930
Reaction score
26
Location
Massachusetts
Air pollution has been a problem in London since Medieval times. If you search around, you will find information about it, and there is a book with that title.
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-23/news/vw-10031_1_air-pollution-problem
I haven't looked into it recently, but I remember running across mentions of attempts to clean up the smokes, etc. of London for a few hundred years.

Oh yeah, London and other cities would certainly suffer pollution from wood and charcoal fires even prior to the industrial era. Very true.
 

Bolero

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
1,080
Reaction score
106
Location
UK
But there must still have been some places -- Cornwall, some parts of coastal Wales, the more rugged and distant parts of Scotland, and others -- which enjoyed clear dark night skies.

Of course, even with no smog and no lights, the weather in most of Great Britain is such that there won't be all that many perfectly clear night skies in any event.

Cornwall - a lot of mining and clay extraction. Engine pumping houses for emptying out water from the mines. You'd need to look at book or two to check for Cornwall.

Night sky - we do get clear skies in the UK. Last night was one. :) I was in and out consulting the Jodrell Bank observatory website and working out the bright one near Orion was probably Jupiter. Milky way visible.
 
Last edited:

Mark HJ

Cat whisperer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
188
Reaction score
17
Location
Cornwall, UK
Website
markhuntleyjames.wordpress.com
But there must still have been some places -- Cornwall, some parts of coastal Wales, the more rugged and distant parts of Scotland, and others -- which enjoyed clear dark night skies.

It depends on which bit of Wales - coal mining must have produced air pollution, and anywhere they did coking would have put out a lot of smoke. Wales was also a major producer of slate, and the mechanisation of that process would have generated air pollution.
 

Telergic

Overwriting
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
930
Reaction score
26
Location
Massachusetts
Obviously both Cornwall and Wales are famous for mining, but with the weather coming from the west, I imagine any coastal area that wasn't actually devoted to the industry would have clear skies, at least clear of smog, anyway.
 

stephenf

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
1,199
Reaction score
335
Pollution was a problem in Victorian England , but smog was almost entirely caused by domestic coal burning . In the Great smog over 8000 people died . But that was in 1952 . In 1956 the clean air act was passed . In Victorian times I would guess outside of the large cities , and away from industry , the air would be quite clean . Street lighting would only be found on main roads. Electric lighting was turned off after 22.30. So in a lot of Victorian England was very clear and dark at night .
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
That's why I asked what was meant by 'small Victorian town'. The amount of pollution would heavily depend on location.