Okay so what exactly is "pagan" anyway?

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

I apologize if this is a dumb question, and I'm sure it is.

This is something that's been confusing me for a long time, and I didn't really see any simple, straight-forward definition in the stickies.

But what is "pagan" anyway?

My understanding of "pagan," when it comes to its dictionary definition, is basically anything non-Christian, or to be a little more broad, any non-Abrahamic religion. But it certainly seems like things like Hinduism and Shintoism and Buddhism don't often get grouped into paganism, so that can't quite be right, can it?

I'm Native American, to be specific, I'm Zuni, and while I don't always really follow all of my tribe's beliefs, I do try to follow its traditions and have a lot of non-Western thoughts and beliefs when it comes to spirituality, so I've always felt a certain amount of compatriotism with pagans. After all, by the dictionary definition, I'm a pagan, too, then, as are most Native Americans. I think. Maybe? I don't really know. I get the feeling that's not really what people mean when they say they're pagan, right? I've never met another Native American who's identified as pagan, so I have the feeling that's got to be wrong, and I just have no idea exactly what a pagan is in the 21st century. There's got to be a more specific idea than "non-Christian", right?

Or maybe my feeling is wrong, and paganism is indeed that collective, and I'm pagan after all?

But in either case, it seems to me like there's a ton of different faiths that get grouped under paganism. For the most part, they all seem to be European. At least when it comes to people who say "I'm pagan", as opposed to something else. So is that a thing? Basically, I'm not quite sure what someone means when they say they're pagan.

So. What does paganism mean to you? What does it mean to be pagan, and what are your beliefs? Am I pagan?

Gena_Skyler · Feb 16, 2014

To me, a pagan is someone who follows an earth based religion. So something like Wicca or Druidism. It encompasses a wide variety of different religions.

Usually there are both a god and a goddess, though sometimes it is matriarchal. Some also look at different pantheons and worship those gods and goddesses, for example the Greek, Nordic or Roman pantheons.

Normally their beliefs and practices involve nature and the seasons. Some are animal activists or environmental activists.

Does that clear things up a bit?

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

Gena_Skyler said:
Does that clear things up a bit?

To be perfectly honest...? Not really.

What exactly do you mean by "earth based religion"?

"Beliefs and practices [that] involve nature and seasons" is pretty vague to me. That's... lots of religions.

I mean, most Native American religions have both gods and goddesses and even many deities without a determinate sex, and almost all involve nature and seasons, but as I said, I rarely hear other natives characterize their beliefs as "pagan". But maybe they're wrong or are just being more specific than most pagans?

I can't help but feel that when someone says they're pagan, they're describing something different from what I am, but I honestly have no idea what that difference is, other than that they often seem to be describing European-based or -influenced religions. If some geography of origin could be tied to it, maybe that'd be bit enlightening.

For example, I understand that Druidism is almost always counted as paganism. But would Shintoism be paganism?

DeleyanLee · Feb 16, 2014

To me, the term "pagan" is the umbrella under all other religions who don't count their numbers in millions fall--basically any religion that's not the majority or official religion of any country. It's a quick and easy term to say to people who really don't know anything beyond their own majority/official religion to identify. For casual conversation, "pagan" is safe, allows the convo to keep moving without focusing on us, and life goes on.

Yes, it is that big in my experience.

When we think about our own religion, we think about it in all its detail and its "real" name and it has meaning. If someone shows greater interest in what we believe and how we practice spirituality, we can get into details, but we can leave the soap box under the bed and not make a big deal of it by using a single commonly (at least in the US, I assume it has meaning in other places as well) word.

Does that help?

SWest · Feb 16, 2014

*Westie posts an answer, take 5*

When I first began hearing the word "Pagan" it was used exclusively as a slur (i.e. someone who is religiously unenlightened, either by ignorance or choice). In my culture of origin, it still is.

Asking for a single clear definition for the term "Pagan" is as thorny as equating Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Evangelical Lutheran, Conservative Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Fundamentalist, Mormon, Quaker, Amish...etc. cosmologies and practices.

Kind of like asking does a Buddhist believe that their pantheon is literal, or manifestations only of archetypal states of mind? The answer will be "it depends on the Buddhist".

Since I don't seem to have the brain stuff for "belief", I take a scientific/anthropological approach to cosmology (our Greatest Grandmother became archetypally and metaphorically layered into the Great Goddess).

I am entirely overcome by origin stories and artifacts that indicate we came from fish and the sun! How did we know thousands of years ago that the number "13" is significant to our species in a matrilineal sense? (There are 13 genes used to make mitochondria--they only come from your mother.)

In my working definition of "Pagan" I personally exclude all practices that originated in patriarchy, and/or those which have been pretty well appropriated by Indo-European cosmology and practice.

All mileage varies!

Wilde_at_heart · Feb 16, 2014

My understanding is that it's traditionally been applied to any European religion or practice that later got supplanted by the Roman Catholic Church, including, er, the Romans themselves, or at least any that predate Christianisation. Some include ancient Babylon as well.

Many of the major festivals fall in between the equinoxes and solstices and were geared largely towards fertility - both for people and for crops.

If you search for things like 'Beltane' or 'Walpurgis' or 'Lughnasa' or 'Samhain' you should be able to find a fair amount that might help.

ETA: Certain Christian missionaries will deride anything non-Christian as Pagan, which they see as the equivalent of the Devil's work, so anything they come into contact with beyond whatever sect of Christianity they represent would be called Pagan by them too.
As an example of their bias see this - http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienciareal/cienciareal20.htm and ignore the rubbish about Illuminati and human sacrifice (though the latter might have been practiced by Druids, it's the old 'consider the source'). Keep in mind that some Protestant/Baptist sub-sects consider the Roman Catholic Church pagan as well, slamming it for idolatry, etc.

Hapax Legomenon · Feb 16, 2014

It depends on the context.

If you're looking at a historical standpoint "pagan" generally refers to pre-Christian European practices so any Native American religions would not be considered pagan. From a missionary/conversion standpoint, it might be anything non-Christian, non-Abrahamic, non-that-specific-Christian denomination, etc, in which case Native American religions might be pagan. From a new religions standpoint, a "pagan" would be someone who is taking their beliefs from previous old/dead European religions, and these practices are often mixed with Eastern/Native American beliefs (whether or not this is okay to do is up for debate) so there may be some Native American beliefs in there but they likely won't be traditional.

So probably with this in mind you would not be self-identified as "pagan" but others might identify you as "pagan."

Foinah · Feb 16, 2014

That's a great question Kiwisdelu! I apologize if my response seems a bit dry, but I'll take the scholarly and long-winded approach ;-)
Pagan refers to one who follows a polytheistic religion (many gods and godesses).
First we look at the derivation of the word Pagan. It comes from the Latin pagus, which means village district, and paganus was village dweller or rural dweller. This was used by city-dwelling Romans to refer to people living in the country.
As Christianity gained influence the term came to refer to those outside the monotheistic Judeo Christian faith.

Heathen -- a broad term encompassing those "without faith" was applied by Christians throughout the middle ages.
Pagan and Heathen are considered the same term by modern standards.

Technically, Shintoism, Shamanism, Hinduism are considered "pagan" in the eyes of not-so-modern society because of the polytheistic basis.

As society evolved and people expanded their world/cultural/relgious views, the religions of population majorities gained ground as accepted within the realm "different than Christian".

The one common thread that runs through Paganism is the inherent belief that nature is sentient and energetic, and that life is a sacred gift.

I guess it just depends who you are talking to at any given moment regarding Paganism.
There was a resurgence at the turn of the century in the belief in the occult -- in the 50's and 60's neopagans created Wicca and opened the door of acceptance (or at least recognition) of different religious beliefs such as Shamanism, Druidism, or other polytheistic faiths.

Today self-describing as a pagan to an enlightened individual identifies you as someone who stands apart from the Judeo Christian monotheistic path but yet is spiritual and religious within the bounds of your own belief system.

To an unenlightened individual, you would be branded as "without faith".

I grew up as a witch. My mom, her mom, and so forth and so on all the way back, were witches. The Gardnerian revival and creation of Wicca does not apply to my particular path.
I believe in the duality and balance within us all -- light/dark, masculine/feminine, positive/negative, and I strive for balance in my connection to the earth and energy around me. I am a healer of the mind, body, and soul (generic term for the energy you hold within that is YOU).
My mom co-opted the line from both Wizard of Oz and Ghostbusters to describe our path (hilarious!) : if someone asks you if you are a good witch or a bad witch...YOU SAY YES!
And it's true. I walk the light path by choice, but I recognize and balance the darkness within. That is where my path differs from the modern Wicca. I don't believe in the devil, but I do believe in negative energy.
I am polytheistic, but I believe my gods and goddesses are simply manifestations of the one energy; rather like branches on a tree or chapters in a book. You utilize the part you need at the time, but it comes from the same source.
My father was half Lakota and half Norwegian, and my mother was from Castle Caulfield, Ireland. I grew up with three faiths (well...technically four -- I was dipped Roman Catholic as were all the women in my family), but the paths that called to me were the Celt-based pantheon, and the Norse mysticism. That doesn't mean that I don't call on Wohpe when I'm feeling my Lakota roots.

Being a Pagan means embracing the old way. Zuni? definitely the old way ;-)
You just have to find the best path that feels right...or start carving out a path of your own. There is no ONE way to do things. And run, run fast from anyone who tells you that their way is the only way.

DeleyanLee · Feb 16, 2014

I asked a friend of mine who is a deep thinker about such things, and she had this to say:

"What I've seen is that the majority of people who identify as pagan are those who were raised in Judeo-Christian religions who have chosen to follow a recreated European religion, usually a Nature-based one that was eliminated in the Dark/Middle Ages by Christianity. People who are born into a non-Judeo-Christian religion, even the recreated ones, tend to identify themselves by that religion.

"If the OP is following Native American religions, then it makes sense why he wouldn't ID as a pagan, since his religion was never eliminated by Christianity and he can be sure of the practices and traditions."

Her thoughts, at least. And, yes, she IDs as a pagan by her own definition.

Foinah · Feb 16, 2014

And to everyone else who chimed in --

YOU ROCK!!!
The posts are enlightening and it makes me happy to see the amazing responses!

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

Foinah said:
That's a great question Kiwisdelu!

Hey, don't go calling me a Kiwi! Not that I have anything against New Zealanders... :tongue

Technically, Shintoism, Shamanism, Hinduism are considered "pagan" in the eyes of not-so-modern society because of the polytheistic basis.

What I find fascinating (and sometimes frustrating) is how such religions differ from the Judeo-Christian ones not only in the number of deities, but also the very concept of what a god is. When people talk about gods, they always seem so caught up in the idea that a god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. The idea of a god with very little power or even powerless god never even occurs to them. I think that's the part, that difference in ideas over what is and what can be considered divine and sacred, that runs me in the most circles when talking to people from Judeo-Christian faiths.

The one common thread that runs through Paganism is the inherent belief that nature is sentient and energetic, and that life is a sacred gift.

I guess it just depends who you are talking to at any given moment regarding Paganism.
There was a resurgence at the turn of the century in the belief in the occult -- in the 50's and 60's neopagans created Wicca and opened the door of acceptance (or at least recognition) of different religious beliefs such as Shamanism, Druidism, or other polytheistic faiths.

I suppose one thing that's left me a bit confused and wanting to learn more is that lots of self-described pagans seem to belong to a revived religion like Wicca, and what I'm always curious about is "okay, so what was it revived from?" For example, I don't even know if "Wicca" is a modern name for the faith, or if that is what its original practitioners called their faith, too.

A Google search is quick to tell me what modern Wicca believe, but it's hard to sort out what are strictly modern beliefs, what is reconstructed, and what has been revived and what has survived. I suppose I want to know, for those beliefs that have been passed down from the past (whether directly or indirectly), where they came from, who practiced it in the past, and some idea of the mythology and things like creation myths (I love origin stories).

I suppose I'm curious, what is the origin of those beliefs and traditions that came from the past, and what is the basis of those beliefs and traditions that are more modern? And I understand that the latter can surely vary from person to person, and so I'd really love to hear personal thoughts and experiences, which you often can't get from researching around on the internet.

I grew up as a witch. My mom, her mom, and so forth and so on all the way back, were witches. The Gardnerian revival and creation of Wicca does not apply to my particular path.
I believe in the duality and balance within us all -- light/dark, masculine/feminine, positive/negative, and I strive for balance in my connection to the earth and energy around me. I am a healer of the mind, body, and soul (generic term for the energy you hold within that is YOU).
My mom co-opted the line from both Wizard of Oz and Ghostbusters to describe our path (hilarious!) : if someone asks you if you are a good witch or a bad witch...YOU SAY YES!
And it's true. I walk the light path by choice, but I recognize and balance the darkness within. That is where my path differs from the modern Wicca. I don't believe in the devil, but I do believe in negative energy.
I am polytheistic, but I believe my gods and goddesses are simply manifestations of the one energy; rather like branches on a tree or chapters in a book. You utilize the part you need at the time, but it comes from the same source.
My father was half Lakota and half Norwegian, and my mother was from Castle Caulfield, Ireland. I grew up with three faiths (well...technically four -- I was dipped Roman Catholic as were all the women in my family), but the paths that called to me were the Celt-based pantheon, and the Norse mysticism. That doesn't mean that I don't call on Wohpe when I'm feeling my Lakota roots.

Thank you for sharing!

Would you mind elaborating even a bit more? The thing is, when someone says "I grew up as a witch," I have a hard time visualizing exactly what that means.

After all, in Zuni and in most other tribes, we have medicine men and medicine women who are healers and like witches and sometimes called witch doctors.

So between what I know of native healers and what I know of the Judeo-Christian ideas about witches and everything, I'm left uncertain what a pagan means when they say witch. I guess most Christians would be happy enough to imagine their stereotypical witch and move on, while I'm left with confusion because I have just enough extra knowledge to be dangerous.

So when you say "witch," is that something that comes from your Celtic roots, or Norse mysticism, or some complicated amalgam of everything? That's part of what I'm wondering.

Being a Pagan means embracing the old way. Zuni? definitely the old way ;-)
You just have to find the best path that feels right...or start carving out a path of your own. There is no ONE way to do things. And run, run fast from anyone who tells you that their way is the only way.

Oh, definitely. As I mentioned, my own beliefs are also a combination of old and new, which I imagine is the same for most self-described pagans, too.

These days, I'm trying to go back to the rez for our most important events and religious ceremonies whenever possible. For the second year in a row, I've made it back for Shalako (a religious event that takes place near winter solstice) and Zuni New Year after missing them through most of college. I'm starting to try to keep to deshkwi again (kind of like our form of lent) when we have it. But I also have lots of spiritual ideas unrelated to Zuni, that aren't really based on anything but my own thoughts and observations of the universe, sometimes inspired by things as silly as a neat metaphor in a movie.

One of the things that's very different about most Native American religions versus most others that I know, are that you really have to be there. There really isn't anything to practice on your own, because all of the religious events involve the community, and use sacred items that have been passed down since the beginning.

So being displaced and not having grown up on the rez makes it all a little weird. Sometimes I feel like a fake.

DeleyanLee said:
I asked a friend of mine who is a deep thinker about such things, and she had this to say:

"What I've seen is that the majority of people who identify as pagan are those who were raised in Judeo-Christian religions who have chosen to follow a recreated European religion, usually a Nature-based one that was eliminated in the Dark/Middle Ages by Christianity. People who are born into a non-Judeo-Christian religion, even the recreated ones, tend to identify themselves by that religion.

"If the OP is following Native American religions, then it makes sense why he wouldn't ID as a pagan, since his religion was never eliminated by Christianity and he can be sure of the practices and traditions."

Her thoughts, at least. And, yes, she IDs as a pagan by her own definition.

Thanks. That really makes a lot of sense to me. Tell your friend thank you for me!

snafu1056 · Feb 16, 2014

Scholarly types might use the word "animism". Thats any religious system based on the idea that everything in nature has some kind of spirit or life force. These religions dont really have "gods" or"goddesses" so much as embodiments of natural forces. There have been thousands of these religions over the years. Most of them either died out or were absorbed into bigger religions. Christianity gets a bad rap for hijacking pagan traditions, but every major religion has done it. Thats how they got to be major religions- by wiping out or absorbing all the smaller ones.

I think what seperates the big traditional religions from pagan religions is the worship of dieties that are above or outside of nature.

elinor · Feb 16, 2014

In modern colloquialism Pagan would be more in line with Asatru or the modern tradition that names itself druidry (which has nothing to do with the older cultural practices) or heathenry, and wicca etc. More european traditions. Paganism technically would probably consider mystery cults pagan, including the traditions for various ancient Egyptian cults and so on and so forth. But Pagan is a kind of subjective word, and I think it depends on the person. I wouldn't call Sami practices Pagan nor would I call local spring practices of a Salish tribe Pagan. But someone else might, and might consider it perfectly reasonable.

I guess Paganism might be considered any sort of belief or practice that involves believing in non-Christian based magic. But I would recommend you simply checking out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

elinor said:
But I would recommend you simply checking out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

I did.

Wikipedia said:
Defining paganism is problematic.

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

elinor said:
I guess Paganism might be considered any sort of belief or practice that involves believing in non-Christian based magic.

Actually, that's an interesting point for me to consider.

What do you mean by "magic"? How is it incorporated into your beliefs?

(Again, I'd love to hear more stories about personal experiences and beliefs. I don't need broad generalizations.)

Deleted member 42 · Feb 16, 2014

Here's an etymological explanation. First, the actual dictionary definition, because the meaning of pagan depends a lot on the context, and the person using the word:

n.
1. An adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity, especially when viewed in contrast to an adherent of a monotheistic religion.
2. A Neopagan.
3. Offensive
a. One who has no religion.
b. An adherent of a religion other than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
4. A hedonist.

Polytheistic and religion other than the 3 religions of the book would include Hinduism, Shintoism, and native American or Aboriginal or Polynesian religions.

Pagan is from Late Latin pāgānus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pāgus, country, rural district; see pag- in Indo-European roots.]

The Latin root initially referred to a piece or plot of land; it's cognate with the Modern English word page.

As Rome grew in became great and built walls around the city, those who lived outside the walls, the country folk, tended not to adopt or follow the official imperial Roman religion; they went right worshipping their within local traditions and local deities. Paganus became associated both with "rural" and antiquated or rural religious practices.

There's a similar word in English with Germanic roots; heathen.

n. pl. hea·thens or heathen

1. Offensive
a. An adherent of a religion that does not worship the God of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
b. Such persons considered as a group.
2. Heathen An adherent of a Neopagan religion that seeks to revive the religious beliefs and practices of the ancient Germanic peoples.
3. Informal
a. One who is regarded as irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened.
b. Such persons considered as a group.

Etymologically heathen is from Middle English hethen, from Old English hǣthen; see kaito- in Indo-European roots.]

In OE hǣth refers to uncultivated, wild land; the heath. As the OE speakers became absorbed into Christianity, as with Rome, those who lived on the edges of the settlement, in the heath, tended to be rural, and tended to not adopt the ways of the new religion.

Kylabelle · Feb 16, 2014

Medi, I was skimming this thread earlier, intending to back read more thoroughly when more energy, but I had the thought that it would be most cool if you came in and gave some of this background.

This:

In OE hǣth refers to uncultivated, wild land; the heath. As the OE speakers became absorbed into Christianity, as with Rome, those who lived on the edges of the settlement, in the heath, tended to be rural, and tended to not adopt the ways of the new religion.

is the reason for the "heathen" in my signature.

Kuwi, very cool thread, thank you for beginning it. I hope to come back and participate more. :Sun:

ECathers · Feb 16, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Actually, that's an interesting point for me to consider.

What do you mean by "magic"? How is it incorporated into your beliefs?

(Again, I'd love to hear more stories about personal experiences and beliefs. I don't need broad generalizations.)

Hi Kuwisdelu! Great discussion!

First a little about me, so you'll know the perspective I'm coming from. I'm a Wiccan witch and wysard (a European based college descended from the druids). I'm a small part Algonquin, but have never had access to the Rez or the elders, so I don't know their practices well enough to use those. I have however put more than a little research into Native American mythology, and find it very close to my own beliefs. (Horrors - I had an antique book of Algonquin myths that burned in a house fire a few years back - one of the few irreplaceable items and a family heirloom to boot.) I'm also descended from a Spiritualist medium, a Christian Charismatic/ "hedge witch" (the best word I can think of for her) and a bucketload of athiests and agnostics. I work as a professional psychic and teacher of metaphysics.

My husband's father was half Apache, and hubby follows a belief that is an amalgam of Apache, Christian, Quabalist and quantum physics. (I mention him as he tends to rub off on me.)

Magick (some of us spell it with a "k" to differentiate from stage magic) is both the energies of the natural world/the Universal flow and the utilization of that. I actually spend part of my first chapter of Spellcraft Secrets (and the class I teach that led to it) working out a definition. The long version of my definition is, "Magick is the Art and Science of causing change to occur in reality so that reality conforms with Will." The short version is, "Magick is the Art of Change."

Magick is not much different (if different at all) from what is termed Medicine. Even though each tradition and path may have specific ways of doing so, Nature and the Universe/Great Spirit/All-That-Is (or in my path, what we call "the Dragon) works much the same way. Fire transforms, Water cleanses, the Wind brings clarity, Earth stabilizes. Since these beliefs are based in Nature, you'll find common threads through most of them.

In my own practice I use magick in healing, in shamanic journeying, in casting spells and doing ritual, in divination and just in paying attention, working with and moving through the world around me.

Foinah · Feb 16, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Hey, don't go calling me a Kiwi! Not that I have anything against New Zealanders...

TYPO on my part :tongue

You wrote:

Thank you for sharing!

Would you mind elaborating even a bit more? The thing is, when someone says "I grew up as a witch," I have a hard time visualizing exactly what that means.

So when you say "witch," is that something that comes from your Celtic roots, or Norse mysticism, or some complicated amalgam of everything? That's part of what I'm wondering.

Okay. I refer to myself as a witch because that's what my family line called ourselves and our particular path through the craft. From the middle ages to the recent present, witchcraft has been wrongly associated with black magic and devil worship. hahaha. Oh my. Furthest thing from the truth. We were also called "Cunning Women" because of our knowledge of herbs and healing. My family connection with the craft goes back hundreds of years in Ireland. I grew up there as well.
Wicca derived its name (in the Gardnerian revival) from the Old English Wicce: sorceress/female witch.
A witch uses herbs, spells, tools, and the inherent power we are born with to channel power and energy. I learned my craft at my mother's knee while growing up, just as she did from her mother and all the way back. By identifying myself as a witch and not wicca I show the difference between the two paths. I know many Wiccans who are witches and witches who are also Wiccans, and wiccans who aren't witches but are pagan. And witches who are just good old fashioned witches (like me).
Confusing, eh? haha.
Most of my knowledge has been handed down. There are similarities in modern Wicca, certainly, and I'm sure dribs and drabs of the old faith of Ireland -- druids ;-) crept in over the years.
I learned the healing herbs, the spellcraft herbs, rituals, divination, spirit work, and to let the energy flow through me. I'm about as old school as you can get. If my children chose to walk the pagan path then I in turn will teach them what I know.
We celebrated the high days and sabbats.
Most modern pagan paths are reconstructions and pieced together bits of knowledge (or manufactured anew) from the old faiths. Definitely. And that is I why I said you need to follow your own path that calls, even if it is an amalgam of different traditions that work for you.
Spirituality is a very personal thing. There are tools available to help you center and ground, and yes...there is power in traditional ritual done correctly.

My uncle (on father's side) was a tribal shaman. I spent time on the rez. Blood calls to blood as a conduit for power.

I read runes and call on the old gods; again blood calls to blood when you need the energy. Loki got a bad rep, IMHO.

My strongest link is with the Celts. I love Morgu -- she's my go-to goddess and that is my comfort zone.

My particular gift is divination and cleansings. I suppose I'm sort of a ghostbuster! hahaha. I help people who need it. In any way that I can. I also do not charge for my services. I only ask that folks pay for the supplies I need, but the witchy poo is free. That was my family way and I carry on the tradition as best as I can.

I hope I answered your questions.

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

ECathers said:
Magick is not much different (if different at all) from what is termed Medicine. Even though each tradition and path may have specific ways of doing so, Nature and the Universe/Great Spirit/All-That-Is (or in my path, what we call "the Dragon) works much the same way. Fire transforms, Water cleanses, the Wind brings clarity, Earth stabilizes. Since these beliefs are based in Nature, you'll find common threads through most of them.

In my own practice I use magick in healing, in shamanic journeying, in casting spells and doing ritual, in divination and just in paying attention, working with and moving through the world around me.

Thank you. I wonder if you wouldn't mind elaborating a bit more? You see, in my head, in one metaphysical hand, I'm imagining the medicine and healing ceremonies my people practice, which I suppose can be considered a kind of magic, and in another metaphysical hand, I'm imagining a teenage girl who calls herself a witch reading a love spell out of a book with a pentagram on it expecting some boy to suddenly fall for her... and I'm imagining that's either wrong, or there's much more to it than that. And I apologize if anything I say ends up being offensive or insulting, but the media does these things...

For example, in Zuni, when someone is chronically ill, or continuously stricken by misfortune, they might call a medicine man to perform a healing or cleansing ceremony of some kind. Conversely, I remember when several of the eagles at a sanctuary on the rez suddenly mysteriously died, lots of people speculated that a witch was responsible. (Yeah, sorry, my tribe generally considers witches evil — please don't hurt me!) Heh, I wish we had love potions, but there's nothing like that. I suppose the magic I know operates more like karma than anything Hollywood portrays. It's nothing that violates the laws of chemistry or biology or physics.

Is it kind of like that? I'm trying to connect a line between what I know and what I don't know, and these things like the media, pop culture, and Judeo-Christian stereotypes keep getting in the way. The way I think about it, there's no real difference between a magic spell and a prayer. (And I don't mean that in any kind of diminutive way with respect to either word. I rather like the idea of both.)

Foinah · Feb 16, 2014

Love spells are a no-no. It is wrong to take someone off of their path. No-no. Big time. And those kinds of spells backfire.
And spells are very much the same as prayers. Focus. Intent.

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

Foinah said:
My particular gift is divination and cleansings. I suppose I'm sort of a ghostbuster! hahaha. I help people who need it. In any way that I can. I also do not charge for my services. I only ask that folks pay for the supplies I need, but the witchy poo is free. That was my family way and I carry on the tradition as best as I can.

Heh. Medicine folk charge in Zuni. I guess it's a heckuvalot of work. But I guess once you're in the spiritualizing mode, it's simpler to do a lot of work at once since you're all set up, so if someone is already having their house blessed or something like that, there's a discount to get yours done around the same time, too.

Incidentally, there are some animals that you can't kill unless you're a member of a medicine group. (I think one of them is the coyote, but I can't remember right now.) The kicker is if you accidentally kill one, you won't be in any real trouble, but it means you have to get initiated into the medicine group (which of course is a lot of work).

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 16, 2014

The meaning of term "pagan" doesn't necessarily one have universally accepted definition.

However, I'm going to agree in genera principle with those saying it's basically any of the European religions that were swallowed by Christianity during the time of the Roman empire. The original pagan religions, as closely as they can be reconstructed, were polytheistic and descended from the Indo-European pantheon. Because of those similiarities from a shared heritage, there was a great deal of mixing that could go on, especially as exemplified by Greco-Roman paganism. Some examples include Greek, Roman, Slavic, German, and Celtic paganism. Various other groups who were eventually displaced by the westward migrations during and towards the end of the Roman empire also appear to have had such religions. It may be noted that many of the native religions of peoples from the Levant, the Arabian peninsula, and North Africa and Egypt also had religions that would likely have been considered pagan.

The second class of "pagan" religions are the so-called "Neo-Pagan" religions such as the various straints of Wicca, druidry, etc, claimed to have been reconstructed from remnants of past traditions. The historical veracity of many of the paths, for example, Gardnerian Wicca, has been challenged, but most modern pagans tend to ignore those issues a great part of the time.

Hinduism, Shintoism, the more polytheistic strains of Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and others are separate traditions, and generally not considered part of the pagan umbrella from a historical context standpoint, at least in the modern pagan community as I have experienced it. Academic definitions may vary from that somewhat.

There's not necessarily a lot of centralized learning in pagan fields, unless you follow a particular path or lineage. There's plenty of whatever works and eclecticism. And also the line between Neo-Pagan and New Age can get a bit blurry at times.

rugcat · Feb 16, 2014

Most of my knowledge about pagans and neopagans comes from the seminal book by Margot Adler, Drawing Down the Moon.

I read it when it was first published in 1979. I found it fascinating, but have never been sure about just how accurate it really is. I realize it is a popularization, not a scholarly book, but is it basically worthwhile?

I would value the opinions of those here who know much more about such things than I.

kuwisdelu · Feb 16, 2014

I kind of want a pagan girlfriend now. Ya'll seem interesting.

Okay so what exactly is "pagan" anyway?

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