About Ribs... and horses

oldfashionedgirl · Feb 3, 2014

Hello! I haven't posted in a loooong time... but I'm back, hopefully to stay this time...
I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, seeing as this is a writing forum and this is only loosely related to writing but in a story I'm doing, I have two somewhat unrelated questions for which Google has been the most unproductive answer-provider I've ever had.
If you can answer one or the other, or tell me where this does/doesn't belong, Thanks!

Firstly, I need to know about broken ribs. Apparently ribs are not a popular bone, as what little in the matters I am concerned about that happen to be on the web haven't done me any good.
I've got this scene where this character has a horse accident and ends up breaking ribs. I would like to know a few things about them from people who've had them, because I always try not to be that writer who hopes her readers won't know what the heck she's talking about anymore than she does.
I've got a few questions...
How long would you say you'd usually have to wait before you'd be allowed to ride? Would going from sitting to standing hurt? how about the other way around? (or going from sprawled out on the ground to upright). Would driving an old stick-shift, 4-wheel-drive pickup, hurt? how about walking around? How about trying to climb into a high off the ground truck, or onto a horse? Can you think of any standard daily activities that took on a new level of skill with the broken ribs? How many would you say you'd break, on average? What all would they give you/tell you at the hospital or ER or wherever you'd go?
Yeah I know, that's a lot of questions. I annoy people endlessly with my questions, especially in real life, so... what can I say...

The other one is horses.
My scenario is that (and I do not have the privilege of doing this stuff in real life so bear with me if this sounds incredibly stupid, I'm only as smart as Google)
Okay, scenario: Girl wants to get a bull out of the middle of a lot of heifers as he tore down the neighbors fence and decided to "join the ladies" so to speak. It's happened before and the occupants of the ranch on my side are sick of him breaking their fences and stuff. Said girl goes out there to.. pardon my non-cattle-ey word... "herd" the bull wherever he came from because the neighbor won't.
It doesn't work out so she does what is usually considered unnecessary and stupid: she tries to rope him.
When she finally does get him on the other end of her rope, she ties it to her saddle horn and for the one time in her life she makes the mistake of forgetting to look back... when horse and bull hit opposite ends of rope, shall we say a train wreck ensues.
What needs to change for that to be realistic?
I read of a horse falling on someone and them getting a couple few broken ribs once, don't know if I can work that idea in or not...

Anyway, as I was saying not sure where this goes but I though this wasn't a bad spot, lol.
If anyone can answer any of my questions, please do! Thank you!

alleycat · Feb 3, 2014

Trying to get a bull to do anything is about like trying to get a cat to do something. When I was a young lad and worked on neighboring farm we sometimes had to deal with a bull that had gotten out. It usually took three or four of us to do it.

Most people want their bull back. They are expensive (very). Could you have at least one of the neighbors come to help her? He could be a guy smitten with the young lady, or the goofy ranch hand type, or some old coot. It could add richness to the scene.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Feb 4, 2014

Colorful name ya got there, lady.

The proper place for this one is probably 'Story Research', where you can find all manner of nice folks who will know the answers to your questions.

As for finding your way around AW, I hope you'll hang with us and learn the 'lay of the land', so to speak. As an active member of the community, you'll find we're an awesome resource. Toward that end, I present - tada! - the 'Newbie Guide to AW'... the link for which can be found at the top of every page under the featured publication of one of our members.

The index page gives you a 'map' of the forum. The link to it is also at the top of every page - on the left, just above the list of threads in whichever room you happen to be in. It's the first link in the string that leads down to the exact spot you're reading... which will be in a new location as soon as I move your thread out of 'Office Party' and into 'Story Research'.

And speaking of 'Story Research', one more tip: you can search a forum by clicking on the 'Search This Forum' link on the upper right hand side of the blue band just above the list of threads in a forum. Searching for 'horse', 'broken bones', etc. might have given you everything and then some for the answers to your questions.

Thus endeth this morning's lesson from the original 'Ol' Fashioned Girl'. Secure your tray-tables, make sure your seat belt is fastened securely around your midsection, and that your seat is in its upright position... we're about to take off and move this here thread over to the Research section.

Hang on.

King Neptune · Feb 4, 2014

oldfashionedgirl said:
Hello! I haven't posted in a loooong time... but I'm back, hopefully to stay this time...
I'm not sure if this is a good place to ask this, seeing as this is a writing forum and this is only loosely related to writing but in a story I'm doing, I have two somewhat unrelated questions for which Google has been the most unproductive answer-provider I've ever had.
If you can answer one or the other, or tell me where this does/doesn't belong, Thanks!

Firstly, I need to know about broken ribs. Apparently ribs are not a popular bone, as what little in the matters I am concerned about that happen to be on the web haven't done me any good.
I've got this scene where this character has a horse accident and ends up breaking ribs. I would like to know a few things about them from people who've had them, because I always try not to be that writer who hopes her readers won't know what the heck she's talking about anymore than she does.
I've got a few questions...
How long would you say you'd usually have to wait before you'd be allowed to ride? Would going from sitting to standing hurt? how about the other way around? (or going from sprawled out on the ground to upright). Would driving an old stick-shift, 4-wheel-drive pickup, hurt? how about walking around? How about trying to climb into a high off the ground truck, or onto a horse? Can you think of any standard daily activities that took on a new level of skill with the broken ribs? How many would you say you'd break, on average? What all would they give you/tell you at the hospital or ER or wherever you'd go?
Yeah I know, that's a lot of questions. I annoy people endlessly with my questions, especially in real life, so... what can I say...

I have only had one rib broken. It was not debilitating, and it eventually healed. I don't often ride horses, so it didn't effect that, nor did it effect my ability to drive, not even a modern - up to date- stick shift. The only times when I even noticed it were when I sneezed or laughed, and sometimes when I was lying down it would bother. The pain was minor, except when I sneezed.

firedrake · Feb 4, 2014

It also depends on which ribs you break as to what restricts your activity. I broke my 5th and 6th ribs when a horse decided to use me as a footstool to get out of a ditch.
Because the 5th and 6th are quite high, I couldn't lift my arm all that easily, even using a tin opener was uncomfortable. I also couldn't drive because I had a manual transmission and it hurt to shift. Coughing, laughing, crying and sneezing were pretty bloody uncomfortable too.
The pain lasted precisely 6 weeks, just as my doctor predicted. Then, it was if someone had turned off a switch, I woke up one morning and it didn't hurt any more.

jclarkdawe · Feb 4, 2014

Broken ribs are broken ribs. They hurt. Doctor will tell you to restrict your activities. Pain may restrict your activities.

Okay, let's see where to begin. First question is whether these are dairy cows or breeding cattle for a beef operation? Big difference in how you handle them. Second question is whether they're in season. If the cows don't have that itch, the bull isn't going to have much fun, and the cows will deal with the bull like any unwanted male. Which brings us to the third question, which is how much of a problem is the bull breeding the cows going to be?

Dairy cows and I'd wait until they want to go in for milking and then run them through a chute and separate out the bull. Relatively safe and the easiest approach. Beef cows and I'd still prefer to run them through a chute, but it's a lot more of a pain in the ass, and the cows are no where near as well behaved.

Dairy cows, if they're not used to horses, are going to run and that's bad, bad, bad. You're losing milk and this is going to become expensive. Beef cows and I don't care that much about them running.

But she wants to separate the bull in the field, and she's using two vastly different approaches, which involve two very different horse skills.

Cows want to herd, more or less, except for when they don't. But herding cattle is relatively simple if you go slow and steady. Most horses can herd cattle with very little experience. It's often a very placid experience, with the occasional cow that wants to break away giving a bit of excitement. Hardest problem is if the cows have no idea where they want to go.

However, separating a cow from the herd is an entirely different matter. It's called "cutting." Cows don't like to be cut from the herd. Horses that specialize in this are called "cutting horses." This is an incredibly high skill set for a horse, and most horses can't do it. The ones that can are incredible.

If a horse does not have any cutter in it, you're going to be dead in the water from the beginning. Any person who has any experience with horses isn't even going to try.

There should be videos of cutting horses on the web. What a cutting horse does is dominate the cow, by blocking any move the cow wants to make, and forcing the cow to do what the horse wants. Incredibly high speed movements on both the cow and the horse. Rider's job is to stay on the horse. Easier said then done.

I owned a cutting horse. Once two German shepherds tried attacking us, so I let him go to town. In less then a minute, these two German shepherds were pinned to the ground, afraid to move a muscle. Never bothered us again.

A good cutting horse is going to drive the bull from the herd, no matter how long it takes, and send the bull wherever you want. A bad cutting horse is less then useless. Cutting horses do not tend to make good roping horses.

Roping horses come with a bunch of different skill levels. Roping a full grown bull is very different then calve roping. (By the way, I'm a lousy roper.)

Roping a bull requires a choice between the head, the horns, or the front feet. Preferred approach is the first rider ropes the horns, the second rider takes out the back feet. Roping a bull is a lot harder then a calf.

Riders have a difference of opinion on whether you dally (wrap) the rope around the horn before or after you rope. Dallying after the throw frequently results in loss of fingers. Most ropers who do this style are going to be short at least one finger. Roping without a partner (stupid) would be a horn loop. The dally can be tied hard and fast, or designed to slide over the horn, letting out line slowly.

The horse needs to be facing the bull, and what you do is get the bull running. You drop your loop over the horns, at a full gallop, and as soon as the loop is dropped, the horse slams on the brakes, dropping his butt to the ground, and sliding to a stop. Bull hits the end of the rope, and ideally is flipped on its back, slamming it into the ground. How many times you have to flip the bull depends upon how stubborn/stupid the bull is.

Wrecks can be caused by the bull who circles the horse, with the horse not keeping up. If the horse gets tangled in the rope, the horse will go down. Another cause is if the horse doesn't know how to brace itself for the stop. One of the best I ever saw was a rider who was hard and fast on a horse that didn't want to stop after dropping the loop. Both horse and steer headed for the next county.

Wrecks are anywhere from a good laugh to deadly. You can tell how spectacular your wreck was by how soon your buddies start laughing. A bad wreck, with serious injuries, might result in a delay of a day or two before your buddies start laughing. I haven't looked, but I think a search for "roping wrecks" might produce some results.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

oldfashionedgirl · Feb 4, 2014

jclarkdawe said:
Broken ribs are broken ribs. They hurt. Doctor will tell you to restrict your activities. Pain may restrict your activities.

Okay, let's see where to begin. First question is whether these are dairy cows or breeding cattle for a beef operation? Big difference in how you handle them. Second question is whether they're in season. If the cows don't have that itch, the bull isn't going to have much fun, and the cows will deal with the bull like any unwanted male. Which brings us to the third question, which is how much of a problem is the bull breeding the cows going to be?

Beef cows.... this is not a dairy operation. I knew I was forgetting something in my post...

Dairy cows and I'd wait until they want to go in for milking and then run them through a chute and separate out the bull. Relatively safe and the easiest approach. Beef cows and I'd still prefer to run them through a chute, but it's a lot more of a pain in the ass, and the cows are no where near as well behaved.

Dairy cows, if they're not used to horses, are going to run and that's bad, bad, bad. You're losing milk and this is going to become expensive. Beef cows and I don't care that much about them running.

So... beef cows can run as much as they are so inclined and nothing bad happens?

But she wants to separate the bull in the field, and she's using two vastly different approaches, which involve two very different horse skills.

Cows want to herd, more or less, except for when they don't. But herding cattle is relatively simple if you go slow and steady. Most horses can herd cattle with very little experience. It's often a very placid experience, with the occasional cow that wants to break away giving a bit of excitement. Hardest problem is if the cows have no idea where they want to go.

However, separating a cow from the herd is an entirely different matter. It's called "cutting." Cows don't like to be cut from the herd. Horses that specialize in this are called "cutting horses." This is an incredibly high skill set for a horse, and most horses can't do it. The ones that can are incredible.

If a horse does not have any cutter in it, you're going to be dead in the water from the beginning. Any person who has any experience with horses isn't even going to try.

There should be videos of cutting horses on the web. What a cutting horse does is dominate the cow, by blocking any move the cow wants to make, and forcing the cow to do what the horse wants. Incredibly high speed movements on both the cow and the horse. Rider's job is to stay on the horse. Easier said then done.

I owned a cutting horse. Once two German shepherds tried attacking us, so I let him go to town. In less then a minute, these two German shepherds were pinned to the ground, afraid to move a muscle. Never bothered us again.

A good cutting horse is going to drive the bull from the herd, no matter how long it takes, and send the bull wherever you want. A bad cutting horse is less then useless. Cutting horses do not tend to make good roping horses.

Roping horses come with a bunch of different skill levels. Roping a full grown bull is very different then calve roping. (By the way, I'm a lousy roper.)

Roping a bull requires a choice between the head, the horns, or the front feet. Preferred approach is the first rider ropes the horns, the second rider takes out the back feet. Roping a bull is a lot harder then a calf.

Riders have a difference of opinion on whether you dally (wrap) the rope around the horn before or after you rope. Dallying after the throw frequently results in loss of fingers. Most ropers who do this style are going to be short at least one finger. Roping without a partner (stupid) would be a horn loop. The dally can be tied hard and fast, or designed to slide over the horn, letting out line slowly.

The horse needs to be facing the bull, and what you do is get the bull running. You drop your loop over the horns, at a full gallop, and as soon as the loop is dropped, the horse slams on the brakes, dropping his butt to the ground, and sliding to a stop. Bull hits the end of the rope, and ideally is flipped on its back, slamming it into the ground. How many times you have to flip the bull depends upon how stubborn/stupid the bull is.

Is it at all possible for said horse to be able to do both? According to my research horses trained for driving and riding are unlikely but where I live they call it "amish country" and we have a hoard of 'em. Is it possible for a horse to be a good cutting horse and have been later trained to do okay in roping too?
Also I seem to recall reading about something called a hulihan (not sure about spelling) where you draw then rope down to a knot and pop your whatever you're roping on the nose with it. I think you have to be sideways in relation to your target's position to do it. Is that something that would get the bull running so one could rope it, presuming you were dumb enough to do so by yourself and all?

Wrecks can be caused by the bull who circles the horse, with the horse not keeping up. If the horse gets tangled in the rope, the horse will go down. Another cause is if the horse doesn't know how to brace itself for the stop. One of the best I ever saw was a rider who was hard and fast on a horse that didn't want to stop after dropping the loop. Both horse and steer headed for the next county.

Wrecks are anywhere from a good laugh to deadly. You can tell how spectacular your wreck was by how soon your buddies start laughing. A bad wreck, with serious injuries, might result in a delay of a day or two before your buddies start laughing. I haven't looked, but I think a search for "roping wrecks" might produce some results.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Thanks! I really appreciate it. I always have the trouble of coming up with the story idea that I can't find research for...

It also depends on which ribs you break as to what restricts your activity. I broke my 5th and 6th ribs when a horse decided to use me as a footstool to get out of a ditch.
Because the 5th and 6th are quite high, I couldn't lift my arm all that easily, even using a tin opener was uncomfortable. I also couldn't drive because I had a manual transmission and it hurt to shift. Coughing, laughing, crying and sneezing were pretty bloody uncomfortable too.
The pain lasted precisely 6 weeks, just as my doctor predicted. Then, it was if someone had turned off a switch, I woke up one morning and it didn't hurt any more.

Thank you, that sounds like what I was thinking, from what little I could find on the internet.

Colorful name ya got there, lady.

Wow, lol, I never knew I stole your user name! XD What is yours named after? Mine is after Louisa May Alcott's book, and I just use on every site I join anymore.

Thanks everyone!

Kregger · Feb 4, 2014

Everything JClarkeDawe and Firedrake said,

and it is also possible to puncture a lung depending on how severe a fall your MC takes or if one of the large critters lands on your MC.

So if your MC needs to go to the hospital to meet Dr. McHunk that would do it, but the consequences are worse. It depends on the level of disability you want.

jclarkdawe · Feb 4, 2014

Beef cows do not have the extensive udder development that the modern dairy cow has. The sack swinging under them can cause a lot of problems when running. In addition, running will reduce the amount of energy going into milk production. Farmers are on tight margins, and losing a few gallons (actually measured in pounds) is money you're not going to earn.

Beef cows running will cost you some weight, but isn't that important in breeding cows. You might get some miscarriages if they're close to calving. Cattle headed towards the slaughterhouse need to maximize their weight. Running does increase the chances of a broken leg. But then you've got dinner, so it isn't necessarily a major problem.

A good cutting horse can be a mediocre roping horse. But if you've got a good cutting horse, you've got a horse that can drive the bull wherever you want. Since you want both cutting and roping, you want a poor cutting horse. You want a horse to fail. Have her think about the horse back at the ranch that knows how to cut and then the knucklehead she's riding on.

Cutting horses have a real dominant personality. The skill they use with cattle is the same that they use in dominating the other horses in the herd. It's a different mentality then what a horse needs to deal with in roping.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. A houlihan is a style of roping, using a quick loop and throw, and having a flat style. It's good for catching horses around the neck (horses have a higher headset then cattle when running). Popping is a style of roping used in brush country, where you don't have room to throw a normal loop. A popper is a type of whip that makes a popping sound when snapped.

If you can approach the bull on horseback and get close enough to whack it with your rope, that's what you'd use. When you're roping, you hold the reins usually in the left hand, and the loop and coils in your right. If you need to bop a cow, all you do is use the rope in your right hand. Roping rope is very stiff and the coils form a pretty good weapon. Whacking a cow with the coils will get a good reaction.

However, if you can approach the bull on horseback and the bull doesn't want to run, you'd drop a loop over the bull's neck while its standing still and have a choke hold. You start riding in the direction you want to go, and when you reach the end of the rope, you start choking down the bull. The bull will move towards the rope, letting slack into the rope. The horse is strong enough to pull the bull off its feet if it doesn't get moving.

And I forgot a good wreck. Western saddles come either single or double-rigged, referring to the number of cinches it has. A double-rigged saddle has a second cinch that's used to keep the saddle from tipping forward. This wreck usually happens with single-rigged saddles, but has been known to happen to double-rigged saddles.

When the bull hits the end of the rope, naturally a lot of pressure is put on the horn. With a single-rigged saddle, the saddle will tip forward, putting a lot of stress on the cinch. Cinches can break. At that point, the bull, with saddle trailing behind, goes running one way, the horse, with no saddle and rider, goes another way, and the rider is left in the middle, a puzzled look on his face, and usually something broken.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

shaldna · Feb 5, 2014

oldfashionedgirl said:
Firstly, I need to know about broken ribs. ....

How long would you say you'd usually have to wait before you'd be allowed to ride?

Anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months depending on how bad the break is, how well it's healed etc.

Would going from sitting to standing hurt?

Yes. Like hell.

how about the other way around?

See above.

(or going from sprawled out on the ground to upright).

You're unlikely to be doing this without help and/or some screaming. Especially immediately following a break or in the early days afterwards.

Would driving an old stick-shift, 4-wheel-drive pickup, hurt?

Yes.

how about walking around?

Yes.

How about trying to climb into a high off the ground truck, or onto a horse?

Yeah, that's not happening any time soon.

Can you think of any standard daily activities that took on a new level of skill with the broken ribs?

Breathing.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be flippant here, but you can't do ANYTHING with broken ribs without it hurting. Breathing is painful and feels like your chest is on fire and being squeezed at the same time. You can't sleep, and god forbid you try to roll over in your sleep. Everything is done carefully. You can't stretch too far, can't move quickly without pain, can't climb, can't carry anything heavy.

How many would you say you'd break, on average?

Depends on the fall. As many or as few as you like.

What all would they give you/tell you at the hospital or ER or wherever you'd go?

'Looks like you broke a rib. Sucks to be you. Here's some co-codamol.'

Ribs are pretty tricky because there's not a lot that can be done with them, and it's really just a case of wait and let them heal. Mostly they'll be concerned whether you have punctured a lung or are in danger of internal injury - through splinter etc - but if it's clean then you're on your own until they heal.

Okay, scenario: Girl wants to get a bull out of the middle of a lot of heifers as he tore down the neighbors fence and decided to "join the ladies" so to speak. It's happened before and the occupants of the ranch on my side are sick of him breaking their fences and stuff. Said girl goes out there to.. pardon my non-cattle-ey word... "herd" the bull wherever he came from because the neighbor won't.
It doesn't work out so she does what is usually considered unnecessary and stupid: she tries to rope him.
When she finally does get him on the other end of her rope, she ties it to her saddle horn and for the one time in her life she makes the mistake of forgetting to look back... when horse and bull hit opposite ends of rope, shall we say a train wreck ensues.
What needs to change for that to be realistic?

You're girl is stupid.

Roping a full sized bull on her own in a herd of heifers?

A fully grown bull can weigh 2000lbs, a horse on average weighs about 1100lbs, add maybe 130lbs for your girl and there is still no way they are going to out strength a bull.

That bull is going to pull her and her horse over - she deserves those broken ribs.

I read of a horse falling on someone and them getting a couple few broken ribs once, don't know if I can work that idea in or not...

That's one way to do it.

jclarkdawe · Feb 5, 2014

Shaldna, I'll agree the girl is stupid if she doesn't know how to rope. And she'll need a good roping horse. And definitely it is preferable to have two people working full grown cattle then one. For beef cattle, the cows tend to be meaner then the bulls.

The problem with only one rider working a cow (either bull or cow) is that you have limited control. If the country is open with no trees to use, you don't have any place to dodge. If you can't flip the cow, or it flips and isn't disoriented after the flip, you stand a serious probability of the cow charging you. With trees, you can get the rope tangled around some trees and let go of your end, leaving the cow tied, and you loose.

But if you're by yourself, and the cow charges you, all you can do is drop your rope and get away, and use your second loop to try again. (Nobody carries a third loop.)

The reason the cow flips when it hits the end of the rope is it's running, the rope is high on the body, and the horse is stopped. The horse will slide a bit, but it's like running into an anchor. The cow wants to keep moving under one of Newton's laws.

In the Western part of the US, full grown cattle are roped all the time. If it's going to take a hour or more to get a cow to a catch pen, you rope the sucker.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2014

This is all so different to the cattle I know in the UK. Does anyone rope cattle here? I think they're all gently herded about, not roped at all.

Great thread.

jclarkdawe · Feb 5, 2014

Western US is very different then the UK. First off, there's a big difference between beef cattle and dairy cows. Dairy cows have daily handling, and a cow that is a pain in the ass ends up hamburg fairly quickly. Beef cattle is not handled much at all, and can be close to wild.

Roping in the UK is primarily done on foot, with front leg catches being the usual method. You get the same flip, although the mechanics of why are different. I don't know how common this is, however, but I have heard of it being done.

Big difference between the UK and Western US is size. In the Western US, you could be ten or more miles from a catch pen. Cattle might not be seen for days or even weeks at a time. If you're riding through, and a cow needs some doctoring, you do it right there, right now. It's not worth bringing in the entire herd is one cow needs some fixing.

Of course, things can go wrong and ranchers ride off in the morning, and you find them in a couple of days by the buzzards.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Old Hack · Feb 5, 2014

I used to live next door to a dairy farmer, and one of our good friends here keeps beef cattle. They walk their cows in every night, and walk them back out again in the morning. They're handled a lot, and while I wouldn't be complacent around them, the cows I know are placid and friendly, on the whole.

As for being ten miles away from a catch-pen, that's not going to happen here as far as I know. A mile, maybe. But even that would be stretching things.

oldfashionedgirl · Feb 6, 2014

Thank you very much for your answers! I now feel like I know at least somewhat what I'm doing.

While I wouldn't say that my MC is stupid... how shall I say this?
To quote a saying I've had her using in the story, nobody ever accused her of being a genius but she's no box of rocks either.

She doesn't own this ranch, she works there/lives there. She's not the only one who works there, a guy does too, but he was helping the lady of the house (who owns the ranch- long story) with something and my MC didn't plan on doing any roping. She didn't think she'd be doing anything like that.
She is far from affable, and pretty stubborn, and it really wouldn't surprise me if she wouldn't decide to try it by herself anyway, just because she wants to prove to Mr. You're-a-girl-so-I'm-better that she knew what she was doing, and because she figures, what has she got to lose?.... nothing, in her opinion. As far as she's concerned she honestly doesn't care about any injuries (or didn't think ahead that far...) and she doesn't think anyone will care what happens to her anyway, so... yeah.

Also...what breed of horse is a common cutting horse? So I can picture the horse she wishes she was riding (she's riding her own horse, that the story's named after).
Aren't these sorts of ropes nylon? I hear "nylon ropes don't break", and that it would stretch like a rubber band until the horn pulls out of the saddle or the saddle comes loose, one or the other.
Thanks again! You're very helpful! ^.^

Oh yeah, EDIT: I was thinking of having the ranch's owner's 13 or so year old son tagging along, and her making him drive back. ("As long as you keep it between the ditches you're doing alright.") Would that be advisable with a case of broken ribs?
I mean they're on their ranch so they can't get in trouble for that... right? <.<

Brutal Mustang · Feb 6, 2014

oldfashionedgirl said:
I mean they're on their ranch so they can't get in trouble for that... right? <.<

My farmer friend makes her thirteen year old daughter drive a semi for certain farm chores.

jclarkdawe · Feb 6, 2014

oldfashionedgirl said:
Thank you very much for your answers! I now feel like I know at least somewhat what I'm doing.
While I wouldn't say that my MC is stupid... how shall I say this?
To quote a saying I've had her using in the story, nobody ever accused her of being a genius but she's no box of rocks either.

This isn't stupid in the normal way one thinks of it. It's more along the lines of not worrying about your safety. As a result of getting a bit older and maybe a bit wiser, I now bring a cell phone with me when I go out into the woods with a chainsaw by myself. Still stupid, but less so then no cell phone. (You should never, ever chainsaw by yourself. Period.)

She doesn't own this ranch, she works there/lives there. She's not the only one who works there, a guy does too, but he was helping the lady of the house (who owns the ranch- long story) with something and my MC didn't plan on doing any roping. She didn't think she'd be doing anything like that.
She is far from affable, and pretty stubborn, and it really wouldn't surprise me if she wouldn't decide to try it by herself anyway, just because she wants to prove to Mr. You're-a-girl-so-I'm-better that she knew what she was doing, and because she figures, what has she got to lose?.... nothing, in her opinion. As far as she's concerned she honestly doesn't care about any injuries (or didn't think ahead that far...) and she doesn't think anyone will care what happens to her anyway, so... yeah.

When my daughter was learning to ride a horse, and had her second or third wreck, I told her that a horseperson doesn't start developing until you've had at least seven wrecks. And you only become a good horseperson after about a hundred or so wrecks. (I've easily exceeded that number.)

A lot of cowboys, as well as some other personality types, figure pain is a good thing. That way you know you're alive.

A lot of women are less then pleased that they were limited to goat roping and barrel racing. More and more, you'll see them bull riding and roping with the big boys.

Also...what breed of horse is a common cutting horse? So I can picture the horse she wishes she was riding (she's riding her own horse, that the story's named after).

Breed doesn't matter that much. It's much more what's between the ears. But the most common breed would be quarter horses. If you want specific lines, I'd have to do some looking, as I don't buy horses for that kind of money. Most ranch horses are going to have a fair amount of "cow" sense in them, and who their parents are doesn't matter much.

Aren't these sorts of ropes nylon? I hear "nylon ropes don't break", and that it would stretch like a rubber band until the horn pulls out of the saddle or the saddle comes loose, one or the other.

Ropes are made from a stiff nylon or polyester these days. To get the desired thickness and weight, they're fairly thick, so they don't tend to break. The entire process (rope, saddle, horn) is designed around a heavy critter hitting the end of it without breaking. Breaks are very rare in any part of the system.

There's a little stretch in the ropes, but not much. The whole principal behind roping is the sudden stop when the critter runs out of rope. That means you don't want stretch, which reduces the shock.

A ranch worker will carry either one or two lassos, with some piggin' strings as well. Piggin' strings are for tying a critter's feet together. This is carried anytime you go out on a horse. A lasso back at the ranch is about as useful as a catch pen ten miles away.

Thanks again! You're very helpful! ^.^

When it amuses me.

Oh yeah, EDIT: I was thinking of having the ranch's owner's 13 or so year old son tagging along, and her making him drive back. ("As long as you keep it between the ditches you're doing alright.") Would that be advisable with a case of broken ribs?
I mean they're on their ranch so they can't get in trouble for that... right? <.<

Most ranch and farm kids learn to drive as soon as they can reach the pedals. Thirteen is a bit old.

But where the hell is the pickup coming from? How does it get there? She was riding a horse. And I've got to tell you. If you're a good distance from civilization, and you come off your horse and break something, you just get back on the horse. Ain't nothing about broken ribs that prevents you from riding. Sure, it will hurt, but no more then sitting on your hunkers waiting for help. That's not going to happen.

As far as driving herself from the ranch to the doctor, she'd probably drive herself. After she took care of the animals and other necessary chores. Then again, broken ribs don't require a trip to the doctor in a lot of cases.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

jeseymour · Feb 6, 2014

Broken ribs - in May of 1987 I was riding cross country (eventing at the Preliminary level) when my horse flipped over a fence. When he got up, he stepped on my chest. I was wearing a protective vest, but still had 7 ribs broken in 11 places or something like that. It's hard to tell from the x-rays, even now. It hurt. My lung collapsed, I couldn't breathe, I had internal bleeding. I did manage to sit up, and was much happier sitting up, but I couldn't stand. This happened in Vermont, and they gave me a choice of hospitals, I chose Dartmouth Hitchcock, and spent 9 days in intensive care and another 2 in the regular ward. I was back on my horse in July, (6 weeks) competing again on the flat in August, competing in eventing in September. But I was young and flexible. It still hurts, by the way, every day. I can't stand up straight, the ribs healed in a jumble and I had no health insurance and got very little physical therapy. Broken ribs are the gift that keeps on giving. They hurt all the time.

At the hospital they gave me Morphine. They were actually testing a new-fangled machine that gave you a dose when you pressed a button. It's quite common now, but it was brand new then. They found that patients used less morphine when they had control over the frequency of the dosage. (It does lock out for a time after you use it.)

There was no way I could have stood up, or gotten on a horse or into a truck. Sitting up was the best I could do. I was up and walking in a couple of days, but the pain was managed by then. For years, I could not sleep on my right side. I can now, but I have a memory foam mattress topper and a wool fleece mattress pad.

I do still ride. I did return to eventing that year and competed that same horse at the same level by October.

Hope this helps. I am happy to answer any more questions.

oldfashionedgirl · Feb 6, 2014

Thank you very much for your answers! I now feel like I know at least somewhat what I'm doing.
While I wouldn't say that my MC is stupid... how shall I say this?
To quote a saying I've had her using in the story, nobody ever accused her of being a genius but she's no box of rocks either.

This isn't stupid in the normal way one thinks of it. It's more along the lines of not worrying about your safety. As a result of getting a bit older and maybe a bit wiser, I now bring a cell phone with me when I go out into the woods with a chainsaw by myself. Still stupid, but less so then no cell phone. (You should never, ever chainsaw by yourself. Period.)

Thanks! I was hoping "poetic licence" would get me out of that one.

She doesn't own this ranch, she works there/lives there. She's not the only one who works there, a guy does too, but he was helping the lady of the house (who owns the ranch- long story) with something and my MC didn't plan on doing any roping. She didn't think she'd be doing anything like that.
She is far from affable, and pretty stubborn, and it really wouldn't surprise me if she wouldn't decide to try it by herself anyway, just because she wants to prove to Mr. You're-a-girl-so-I'm-better that she knew what she was doing, and because she figures, what has she got to lose?.... nothing, in her opinion. As far as she's concerned she honestly doesn't care about any injuries (or didn't think ahead that far...) and she doesn't think anyone will care what happens to her anyway, so... yeah.

When my daughter was learning to ride a horse, and had her second or third wreck, I told her that a horseperson doesn't start developing until you've had at least seven wrecks. And you only become a good horseperson after about a hundred or so wrecks. (I've easily exceeded that number.)

A lot of cowboys, as well as some other personality types, figure pain is a good thing. That way you know you're alive.

A lot of women are less then pleased that they were limited to goat roping and barrel racing. More and more, you'll see them bull riding and roping with the big boys.

Also...what breed of horse is a common cutting horse? So I can picture the horse she wishes she was riding (she's riding her own horse, that the story's named after).

Breed doesn't matter that much. It's much more what's between the ears. But the most common breed would be quarter horses. If you want specific lines, I'd have to do some looking, as I don't buy horses for that kind of money. Most ranch horses are going to have a fair amount of "cow" sense in them, and who their parents are doesn't matter much.

Aren't these sorts of ropes nylon? I hear "nylon ropes don't break", and that it would stretch like a rubber band until the horn pulls out of the saddle or the saddle comes loose, one or the other.

Ropes are made from a stiff nylon or polyester these days. To get the desired thickness and weight, they're fairly thick, so they don't tend to break. The entire process (rope, saddle, horn) is designed around a heavy critter hitting the end of it without breaking. Breaks are very rare in any part of the system.

There's a little stretch in the ropes, but not much. The whole principal behind roping is the sudden stop when the critter runs out of rope. That means you don't want stretch, which reduces the shock.

Ahh. See, here's my little idea (it's pretty little and also probably wrong, but what the hey)
I was thinking, tacked onto the end of the scenario, bull pulls down horse on rider, bull goes after horse with horns, horse gets up, bull chases scared horse, and they're tied together so first the horse pulls down the bull and then the bull pulls down the horse, until the rope eventually gets stretched and the horns pulls out and swings back to hit the bull.

A ranch worker will carry either one or two lassos, with some piggin' strings as well. Piggin' strings are for tying a critter's feet together. This is carried anytime you go out on a horse. A lasso back at the ranch is about as useful as a catch pen ten miles away.

Thanks again! You're very helpful! ^.^

When it amuses me.

LOL, I hope that's sarcasm. I must be annoying with allll my questions, but you guys won't be the first I've annoyed...

Oh yeah, EDIT: I was thinking of having the ranch's owner's 13 or so year old son tagging along, and her making him drive back. ("As long as you keep it between the ditches you're doing alright.") Would that be advisable with a case of broken ribs?
I mean they're on their ranch so they can't get in trouble for that... right? <.<

Most ranch and farm kids learn to drive as soon as they can reach the pedals. Thirteen is a bit old.

But where the hell is the pickup coming from? How does it get there? She was riding a horse. And I've got to tell you. If you're a good distance from civilization, and you come off your horse and break something, you just get back on the horse. Ain't nothing about broken ribs that prevents you from riding. Sure, it will hurt, but no more then sitting on your hunkers waiting for help. That's not going to happen.

As far as driving herself from the ranch to the doctor, she'd probably drive herself. After she took care of the animals and other necessary chores. Then again, broken ribs don't require a trip to the doctor in a lot of cases.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the truck before but they drove there, and stuck the horse in the trailer... this is a very large ranch.. (well, not VERY large... large enough it's big but only takes two people if that even makes any sense which it probably doesn't) so it was easier. Plus, there's two of them and Sammy's (the kid's) mother wouldn't let him ride that far (she doesn't necessarily trust m MC with her son's safety- I'm not sure I would either) so they drove.
I'm still debating if there'll be any hospital. On one hand, she would probably refuse to go see any "saw-bones doctor" as she calls them, but on the other hand I wonder what kind of humor could arise from her belief that they're all full of hot air. The lady of the house is a worry wart, she's probably drive her, or make the other guy drive while she rides.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________-___

Broken ribs - in May of 1987 I was riding cross country (eventing at the Preliminary level) when my horse flipped over a fence. When he got up, he stepped on my chest. I was wearing a protective vest, but still had 7 ribs broken in 11 places or something like that. It's hard to tell from the x-rays, even now. It hurt. My lung collapsed, I couldn't breathe, I had internal bleeding. I did manage to sit up, and was much happier sitting up, but I couldn't stand. This happened in Vermont, and they gave me a choice of hospitals, I chose Dartmouth Hitchcock, and spent 9 days in intensive care and another 2 in the regular ward. I was back on my horse in July, (6 weeks) competing again on the flat in August, competing in eventing in September. But I was young and flexible. It still hurts, by the way, every day. I can't stand up straight, the ribs healed in a jumble and I had no health insurance and got very little physical therapy. Broken ribs are the gift that keeps on giving. They hurt all the time.

At the hospital they gave me Morphine. They were actually testing a new-fangled machine that gave you a dose when you pressed a button. It's quite common now, but it was brand new then. They found that patients used less morphine when they had control over the frequency of the dosage. (It does lock out for a time after you use it.)

There was no way I could have stood up, or gotten on a horse or into a truck. Sitting up was the best I could do. I was up and walking in a couple of days, but the pain was managed by then. For years, I could not sleep on my right side. I can now, but I have a memory foam mattress topper and a wool fleece mattress pad.

I do still ride. I did return to eventing that year and competed that same horse at the same level by October.

Hope this helps. I am happy to answer any more questions.

Wow, that must've been... awful. Closest I've come is falling down a flight a stairs and then dumping off the side and dropping five feet, ended up on top of a flathead Ford manifold and wrapped around a pole. Could only lay on my back for a week, and it hurt to use my arms, but for years... wow. You've also pretty much covered it.

I'm thinking I want my MC's to be less serious, more like a 6-8 week recovery. Just a clean break or three, no punctured lungs or weird fractures or stuff.

Bolero · Feb 7, 2014

Fascinating thread everyone.

Just (briefly) picking up on the UK thing (just for completeness and general interest). I live in mixed farming country in the UK - some dairy herds, beef cattle and sheep round the rest of the place. Never, ever seen any roping done. Also never seen anyone move their beef herds using horses - it is all Landrovers and quad bikes. Tends to be the landrover taking the middle back and beeping its horn to get the flock or herd moving and quad bikes zipping along on the flanks to channel them in a certain direction.

There was a documentary series on last year about young farmers - people getting into farming, sons and daughters of farmers, whole mix. In one episode number 2 son had his own herd of cattle in a different breed to the rest of the farm. Farmer, and sons 1 and 2 went in to move the cows to a new field and they were in a mood and didn't want to go. One cow decided to pull a flanking move and charge the farmer who was (briefly) on foot. Number 1 son put the land rover into the cow's path to deflect her from running over Dad and there was one heck of a thump from a glancing blow.

Last year there was a farmer killed by his herd of cattle - a fire engine came down the road they were herding the cattle along, sounded its siren and the cattle panicked and ran over the farmer.

Incidentally folks - how well can cattle be trained to come for food? We keep small rare breed sheep and do all of our livestock moving by shaking a sack of feed. Do need to keep ahead of them - so much too dangerous with beef cattle unless you have a fence to nip over?

shaldna · Feb 7, 2014

Old Hack said:
This is all so different to the cattle I know in the UK. Does anyone rope cattle here? I think they're all gently herded about, not roped at all.

Great thread.

Yeah, mostly we walk them everywhere. The cows are used to being around people, they are well handled and know their routines - they'll be waiting at the gate for you to bring them in or let them out. And for the most part they are pretty placid. Usually takes two or three people - one to walk behind them and one or two to stand in the middle of the road they are crossing so they don't wander off - quite this job is done by kids.

I've never seen a cow roped here - mostly you can walk up to them and put a halter on them and then just lead them if you need to, but usually you just steer/herd them.

The most common tool used in cattle farming in the UK is a length of blue pipe, which is mostly used as an extension of the arm.

There's a saying here though - 'The cows know you mean business when you get the beating stick out'

Brutal Mustang said:
My farmer friend makes her thirteen year old daughter drive a semi for certain farm chores.

That's really common. Here you'll often see kids of 11 or 12 driving tractors or handling machinery. Often on a farm there's no other option but to have the kids help out.

Bolero said:
Fascinating thread everyone.

Just (briefly) picking up on the UK thing (just for completeness and general interest). I live in mixed farming country in the UK - some dairy herds, beef cattle and sheep round the rest of the place. Never, ever seen any roping done. Also never seen anyone move their beef herds using horses - it is all Landrovers and quad bikes. Tends to be the landrover taking the middle back and beeping its horn to get the flock or herd moving and quad bikes zipping along on the flanks to channel them in a certain direction.

There was a documentary series on last year about young farmers - people getting into farming, sons and daughters of farmers, whole mix. In one episode number 2 son had his own herd of cattle in a different breed to the rest of the farm. Farmer, and sons 1 and 2 went in to move the cows to a new field and they were in a mood and didn't want to go. One cow decided to pull a flanking move and charge the farmer who was (briefly) on foot. Number 1 son put the land rover into the cow's path to deflect her from running over Dad and there was one heck of a thump from a glancing blow.

Last year there was a farmer killed by his herd of cattle - a fire engine came down the road they were herding the cattle along, sounded its siren and the cattle panicked and ran over the farmer.

Incidentally folks - how well can cattle be trained to come for food? We keep small rare breed sheep and do all of our livestock moving by shaking a sack of feed. Do need to keep ahead of them - so much too dangerous with beef cattle unless you have a fence to nip over?

Most animals will respond to feed. Although I would seriously advise NOT shaking feed near a herd of cows unless you want trampled. It's very dangerous. Likewise with horses - if there's more than one of them then you are running the risk of injury - not just to yourself, but to other animals as they tend to attack each other for food.

jclarkdawe · Feb 7, 2014

We've got some issues from your last post. My response is not prioritized and is written in an order that entertains/amuses me and you shouldn't view the order as being in any way meaningful.

It entertains me to watch people make me a lot more complicated then I am. "When it amuses me," means exactly that. I'm helpful when I'm amused by something. I'm not helpful if it doesn't. That simple. No sarcasm, no higher purpose, no hope for eternal blessings by some god. This is just something that interests me, I like the challenge of writing about it and explaining something I can do in my sleep, and you haven't annoyed me. Therefore I respond.

So many people try to look at me in a lot more complicated fashion, frequently resulting in them thinking me being sarcastic. Being sarcastic usually involves a lot more effort then I want to do.

Neither a rope nor a saddle would break in the way you describe. Problem is I don't have enough information to figure out how to fix it. Do you want her to appear stupid her or smart? Do you want an accident that can happen to anyone, or an accident that only happens to the stupid people? Is the horse an idiot or not? I rode a horse named "Wingnut" and the name was appropriate. He nearly caused a wreck.

Now you've added a truck and trailer to the scene. Makes life both easier and harder. How far from them is the nearest fence line? How close is the nearest corner in the fence line? That determines how you use the truck and trailer. By the way, cattle aren't especially respectful of (barbed) wire.

Let's look at the trailer a bit. Normally a ranch uses stock trailers. Big empty box with a swing gate halfway down the trailer. In this case, you'd load the bull in the front of the trailer, shut the swing gate, and load the horse in the back.

But how are we going to get a roped bull into the trailer? What's her plan? Let me tell you that taking the rope, leading it through the trailer so that you can use the horse on the other side of the trailer to pull the bull onto the trailer ain't going to work. What's her purpose in roping the bull? What does she expect to accomplish?

Feed will attract cattle, but I've seen the door of the truck that delivered the hay after the hay got delayed. The door still worked, but the window blew out, and you had to slam it to get it to shut.

The only difference between a thirteen-year-old boy and a grown man on a ranch is the frequency of the shaving. Your mother and her treatment of her boy is completely unbelievable for a ranch kid. Hell, most of the kids are riding sheep and calves before they're ten to start learning how to ride roughstock. Her husband is going to come home frequently with extensive bruising. He's going to be in wrecks constantly. She's going to be going crazy if she can't handle this.

My wife doesn't worry about me and heart attacks (I'm a bit shy of 60). She worries about me doing something stupid. Reasonable concern as it happens fairly frequently. Last summer my horse took a notion, I went to flying, and ended up with a massive bruise on my hip. Got back up, got back on, and rode five miles home. And not the direct route. Took my wife two days to notice the bruising (lots of pretty colors).

Here's a good book on the modern ranch: The Cowboy Way: Seasons of a Montana RanchYou probably want to read it.

Criteria on a doctor and broken ribs are is it unstable, is breathing effected, and do you like pain meds. You might want to watch professional bull riding on TV and see what level of injury people can go through. I broke my wrist riding my bicycle. Rode another 20 miles after it happened, and it took a day of my wife discussing the situation before I saw the doctor. Damned doctor insisted on a hard cast, and I still wonder why I put up with it. Fracture was stable and would have fixed itself on its own. (I had very good health insurance at the time. Doctor cost all of $12 and that was because I went for a fiberglass cast instead of plaster.)

So lots of questions, some grumbling, no sarcasm, maybe some help, and I've spent some entertaining time.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

melindamusil · Feb 7, 2014

I was watching the Olympics last night and heard a sportscaster mention that Shaun White broke a rib recently. He's doing lots of recovery/muscle building to try and compensate for the break.

Point being - it sounds like there's a WIDE variety in broken ribs. Everything from "mild annoyance" to "debilitating".

Bolero · Feb 7, 2014

Question to Old Fashioned Girl - don't feel obliged to answer here on this thread.

What is the most important thing to your plot - the breaking of the ribs or the horseback bull roping?

Just thinking that from what I've read on this thread, your scene about the bull roping is going to struggle with credibility issues, so in terms of delivering broken ribs what about being thrown from a horse against a plank fence?
Being kicked by a cow?

ECathers · Feb 9, 2014

A couple things about this scenario that may or may not be plot holes:

1) Other than the broken fences why does she care whether the bull has a little fun? Might even give the herd some diversity.

2) How does she know where to find the bull to bother driving out there with a truck and trailer? Trailer is to trailer the bull? On open range? Good luck with that. Otherwise it seems it would be easier to just ride the horse out there.

If the intent is to trailer the bull, then the smart move would be to get a bunch of corral panels, set it up and drive him into that. Corral panels comes in sections, so you can set up a small corral when needed. The smart move would be to fill the back of a truck with fencing, set it up, drive the bull in. Then bring the trailer back the next day/later and get the bull on the trailer. Probably need 2 people to move the panels around. Her and the kid could do it.

3) Personally I'd be focused on fixing my fences, so my own stock doesn't escape, not worrying about capturing the neighbor's bull (which will probably escape again and break more fences, especially if the cows are in season).

Instead I'd call up the bull's owner and tell him what you're charging him per day for feed and range use. (I've seen some hefty rates for that, especially in winter.) That ought to get the owner out there to deal with the bull.

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