Proposition: Message Story is a dismissive and derogatory term.

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RichardGarfinkle

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This was prompted by another thread and would have been a serious derail there, but the subject has been troubling me for some time.

It seems to me that every time the idea of meaning in a story is brought up, the story is promptly dismissed as a "Message Story." The implication is that it would be some heavy handed sermon or Aesopian fable. Accompanying this dismissal is some variation of the phrase "the story comes first" and the idea that stories exist primarily to entertain. Often there are hints and warnings of political agenda on the part of a writer who would dare put meaning first.

This idea has two problems, one on the writing side, the other on the reading.

For writing, some of us begin the creative process with the meaning of the story. Around that we create world, characters, and plot. As the story evolves the meaning grows and changes and becomes more sophisticated. It is true that if the meaning is a single simplistic sentence then the story is likely to look glaringly preachy.

But by the same token if a story is written to showcase a single character and the others are flat and two dimensional, the story will be bad, and if the story exists to showcase a single event with everything else only window dressing, the story will be uninteresting.

This is simply part of the process by which I and some other writers write. If we are told that we are wrong to start this way, that we need characters or plot first, we're stuck. We simply do not create our stories by those methods. If we are told that our stories will never be any good because they start this way we may become discouraged and never learn to make our stories work.

On the reading side, readers derive meaning from stories. They will attribute a sense of right and wrong to the events of the story. They will judge characters good or bad (or neither). They will formulate a view of the subject matter of the story out of the events and the descriptions. This is part of how humans think. We make the meaningless (like ink on a page or glowing squiggles on a screen) into the meaningful (stories, essays, and posts).

Looking through SYW, there are many critiques based on the meaning of stories. Readers will point out that a character's actions make him or her come across as evil or amoral when the writer was trying for good. They will point out that ideas or actions are fascinating or horrible. They will assert that something is unbelievable or impossible. These are as much moral or message judgments as any Aesop's Fable.

There's also meaning in each POV. Every point of view renders judgments of what it observes, whether it is a narrator decrying the way people live in a city or a character rhapsodizing over the perfection of a kind of coffee, that judgment comes across to the reader conveying meaning.

It is, as I said above, true that meanings can stick out like sore thumbs just as characters, scenery, special effects, and events can. Sometimes this can be made to work but it has fallen out of fashion, so it is more difficult nowadays.

I personally prefer to embed meaning deeper in worlds and stories and let it flow out in the course of the story by implication. But that's a stylistic choice more than anything else.
 

Filigree

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I agree, in the context of SYW entries.

I'm not sure I *care* that much about stories that don't weave some form of deeper meaning into their entertainment (see Terry Pratchett). But it can be done well, and cleverly - or not.

I believe there is still room for the term 'message story' as applied to the more heavy-handed examples often seen in self-published or vanity-published works. Whether political screed, wish-fulfillment, misery memoir, or senior citizen wisdom pieces, these can all come across as little more than vehicles for their message.
 

lbender

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My point of view is simple. There is no right or wrong way to write. Whatever gets the job done is fine. I sit down, start at the beginning and work my way along to the end. Others write outlines or synopses of what they want to happen in each chapter, then follow them religiously.

Some may want to get a message across. Many, including me, just want to tell a story. If, as frequently happens, a message happens to appear during the story, so be it.

I have no problem with anybody's methods. My idea as to what a 'message story' would be is a story built around a message which, in so doing, sounds forced. Can the term be misapplied? Of course. Can it be overused? Of course. Can it be way off base? Of course. So can many other terms when applied incorrectly.

I'm not going to let those kinds of things bother me. There are enough other problems to worry about.
 

Torgo

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"The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" is a fable - it's a moral thought experiment designed to clarify and personalize a particular class of everyday ethical problems. It would, I agree, feel pretty offhand and dismissive to call it a 'Message Story', but it's undeniable that it is a story intended to convey a message (or at least, a question.)

The old adage is that if you want to send a message, the easiest method is Western Union (however dated that adage is - boringly it'd be 'Twitter' or something these days.) But it's far more powerful if you can deliver it the way Le Guin does (or Aesop, or whoever.) Not easy to do by any means, of course.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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Thank you, thank you, thank you for this post. I've been thinking this same thing since the whole kerfuffle broke out. Glad I'm not the only one.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I have no problem with message stories, or with having a message in mind before writing the story. Some of my favorite short stories and novels were written just to get a message across.

What I'm against is saying you have to consciously include a message, or reading a message into a story that simply isn't there. More, what really gripes me is when a critic says the writer obviously had this or that in mind while writing the story. I can say from experience that, no, I did not have that in mind. And, frankly, it's stupid, and I'd have to be both drunk and psychotic to ever have that in mind.

Like all things, message stories yield to treatment. Done well enough, they make for wonderful reading.

If you can start with a message, and work that into a story in a way that doesn't beat the reader over the head, or that doesn't come across as a Sunday morning sermon, God bless you and yours. You can do something that I fail at miserably.

I do not, however, agree that POV automatically has meaning, and if a reader reads something like meaning into the POV I use, he's almost certainly dead wrong. I choose POV for very specific reasons, use them in very specific ways, and meaning is definitely not one of them, whatever readers think.

As for critiques, those you describe are exactly why I think critiques from average readers and inexperienced writers are horrible, horrible things. I've seen promising careers brought to a dead stop because of such critiques.
 

Ken

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Putting direct messages in stories is tempting. 9 times out of 10, I'll try and fail because the message disrupts the story. But sometimes it works. It fits right in with the flow. Another thing is that the characters and POV have to lend themselves to messages. Not all do. And if you go ahead anyway you're turning characters into your personal spokespeople. So in a way, all the stars have to align.

ps That's just me as a "writer" though. As a reader I have read and enjoyed a number of stories where the characters have been little more than puppets used to convey the author's views: morality plays, etc.
Definitely out of fashion these days. Shame in a way.
 
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Wilde_at_heart

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I think the term crops up when the ordinary reader begins to feel bludgeoned by the message, or it comes at the expense of realistic story, character motivations, etc.

I myself can't stand when characters seem to be there primarily to serve as propagandistic mouthpieces, but then I don't like underdeveloped characters or plot, etc. in any story. I don't read to be lectured about something.

However, in my life I've known a few artists and writers who seem to think it's okay to forsake all sorts of basic story-telling elements because of the 'message' they're wanting to deliver. There comes a point where I think to myself, I already get it, such-and-such is terrible, but would that ever, actually happen?

Does there have to be a message?

I don't think there needs to be.
 
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jimmymc

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There are writers... and then there are preachers. Writers I respect, preachers not so much.
 

ArachnePhobia

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The Phantom Tollbooth is my all-time never-to-be-topped favorite book. It's notoriously didactic, and it's perfect.

I think message stories get a bad rap because the best ones aren't always recognized as message stories. The moral is so seamlessly integrated it's as much a part of the world as the plot and characters. In the aforementioned Phantom Tollbooth, the world is set up in a way that when Faintly Macabre gives an impassioned speech about picking the best words for your sentences, it makes perfect sense for her to be saying that, so it doesn't poke the reader's suspension of disbelief in the eye. OTOH, when the Importance of the Message has characters acting inconsistently to further it, or breaks the story world to make itself work... well, the message will be more obvious, but it won't be the kind of attention the author was going for.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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I think what bothers me about this whole Message Story = Bad thing is A) the backstory behind it (the idea that any story containing certain elements must, by definition, be a "message" story), and B) "message" stories are, by definition, preachy and boring. Neither of which are true.

The fact that the whole argument is coming from sci-fi just completely baffles me. The most didactic cautionary tales I've ever encountered come from that very place. And most of them (not all, but the ones I've read) are pretty awesome. The argument does not hold water.
 

buirechain

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I certain like to read and write stories where the message isn't definitive, but there is a message. The idea being two-fold. First a good story with a message should getting a reader thinking about whatever issue, but not tell a reader what to think. Second, the author's point of view may or may not be 100% clear (though if it's too opaque would it still be a message story?), but the writer admit that their POV may still be fallible and yield to further evidence. They may have thought a lot about an issue, but they can't have thought about everything. Or maybe they are saying something definitive about something, without defining exactly what they're talking about--so their's still wriggle room (i.e. who within a certain group is actually causing a problem).

I was actually thinking recently about a sci-fi story I had read (I'm not 100% sure where it was), that not only decided the idea that nuclear energy is completely and totally safe, but that time will vindicate this viewpoint by the complete absence of nuclear energy incidents.

The funny thing about that story was that it was written only a couple of years before Three Mile Island and less than a decade before Chernobyl.

Then again, I'd bet there are stories that break those two rules and really hit you on the head that I do like.
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

The world is richer for

A Brave New World
The Brothers Karamazov
Horton Hears a Who

and numerous other books whose message is the key to the book.

Just don't run after readers with a sledgehammer.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

JustSarah

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And I think thats part of my hesitance about message stories. How much is exactly to much for the reader? Its still something I'm struggling with.

Like 1984 comes to mind, that could have been helped with being less preachy. Yet War of the worlds is totally fine.

So I'm not really sure.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've been wondering the same thing. There seem to be two assumptions here, that normal stories are completely lacking in message, and that this is a preferable state if it is true. I don't really agree with both.

Having said this, I think there are a couple of ways that message story can be used in the pejorative.

1. A heavy-handed, pedantic, shrill story where the author is clearly cramming a very set agenda down the throats of readers at the expense of any entertainment value or story. I think this is often a straw man, since such novels are probably a tough sell most of the time. I can think of some novels, perhaps, that come close to this (I won't name them out of concern for RYFW)

2. Novels with more subtle themes where it's pretty clear that the writer has certain values about something, but the story is entertaining and not narrowly focused on that issue. Still, readers who vehemently disagree with those values will often complain about the author's political agenda. Or perhaps there's something that simply makes a reader uncomfortable, like a LGBT character who is sympathetic, or a woman or man who is not following a traditional gender role, or someone from an underrepresented demographic. I've had people tell me the only reason for including such things in a story is "political posturing."

Where the line is, may depend on who you are. The movie Avatar, for instance. An anti-military, anti-colonial, anti-American, eco-terrorist anthem, or a beautifully rendered SF adventure and love story with some thought-provoking themes and parallels in the real world?

I do think it interesting, though, that a complete lack of message is the new ideal for novels.

When I was in school, we spent hours in lit classes analyzing the underlying messages, symbolism and themes the authors may (or may not) have had in their books. Some of the books we read (1984 is one example) were very clearly meant to impart messages. I've seen negative reviews given to popular books because they lack, according to the reviewer at least, any serious message.

I think it's interesting that messages in fiction are increasingly demonized at a time some readers and writers are saying they'd like to see more diversity in genre fiction. Where were these people who decry messages in SF when pro military-themed SF was all the rage in the 1980s? Why doesn't anyone ascribe a motive or message to writers who always have very traditional gender roles, or who only have straight characters or whatever?
 
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kuwisdelu

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The movie Avatar, for instance. An anti-military, anti-colonial, anti-American, eco-terrorist anthem, or a beautifully rendered SF adventure and love story with some thought-provoking themes and parallels in the real world?

Dances with Wolves rip-off that continues the Hollywood tradition of the all-powerful white male coming in and out-nativing the natives and saving the exotic indigenous tribe while having sexy time with the native girl.

:tongue
 

MookyMcD

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Dances with Wolves rip-off that continues the Hollywood tradition of the all-powerful white male coming in and out-nativing the natives and saving the exotic indigenous tribe while having sexy time with the native girl.

:tongue

IMO, Dances With Wolves was a rip-off of the intro for F-Troop. :D

Here's the big issue I have with it. I made a comment on a (completely unrelated) thread once that if I tried to rip off the idea from The Da Vinci Code, the end product would be a satire about religion and Harvard academics. Even though I wouldn't be trying to write a message book, it would definitely be more of one. It would also be a hell of a lot funnier. Both things being a direct product of my voice as a writer, and most of that "message" coming from the places I would find humor. I'd write it with no intent of delivering a message, but that wouldn't stop it from ending up with one.
 

DancingMaenid

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I think the problem is that sometimes message stories can be preachy, patronizing, or one-dimensional, and when people talk about message stories in a negative light, I think that's mainly what they're referring to. But I've occasionally seen people act like any story about a particular issue or message is doomed to be preachy, which I think is very unfair. There's nothing inherently preachy about wanting to tackle a serious issue, message, or philosophical question through fiction. But when it works well, it's usually because the message doesn't trump the story and characters. The characters are fleshed-out people, not puppets for the author's worldview.

There are some exceptions, of course. Sometimes satire has characters who don't have a lot of depth beyond representing something/someone. But satire is a genre like any other, and people who are good at it know how to pull it off.
 

Roxxsmom

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Dances with Wolves rip-off that continues the Hollywood tradition of the all-powerful white male coming in and out-nativing the natives and saving the exotic indigenous tribe while having sexy time with the native girl.

:tongue

Another definite take on it. It is a retake of the ol' "white guy goes native and saves the tribe" story. :D

As I recall, the girl in Dances With Wolves, though, was actually a white girl who'd been adopted by the Lakota when she was orphaned. Of course, that might have been because a true interracial romance was considered too risky for Hollywood back then...

Aliens and humans, of course, are another matter entirely. Not controversial at all.

I kind of have a hankering to write a fantasy story from the pov of a woman (from a non white culture in my fantasy world) who leaves her home and ends up saving the white people and having a sexy guy from that country falling for her. Actually, I didn't think of it as a reverse of that trope, just a a story, but I actually have had this character and story rattling around in my head for a while.
 
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gothicangel

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You say message, I say theme.

Let's take Orwell's 1984, you can take it as having a message about the dangers of a society that allows its government to control and restrict civil liberties. But that's not what it is, its a fiction that debates and conjectures about a futuristic surveillance state (NSA/GCHQ take note.)

Because that's what good 'message' fiction should do: hypothesise and discuss. And that's the problem with writing fiction with a 'message.' The writer is attempting to control the way in which a reader responds to it, and results in becoming 'preachy.' Good fiction should always allow the reader to disagree with the author.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Part of my OP was that the idea of message fiction itself is pejorative. Stories carry meaning. Stories convey ideas and judgments. Writers who are choosing what they convey are being condemned.

One implication of the term Message Story is that the story itself is nothing more than a vehicle to preach some simple idea. As if 1984 were a commercial to sell the message Dystopia bad. George not like dystopia.

But 1984 explores the tools of repression as well as examining what humans will go along with, even regard as normal. It also carries lots of smaller bits of meaning. At the end it challenges the concept that love conquers all, declaring implicitly at the end, that fear and pain will break anyone regardless of love.

1984 has stuck with us providing a way of seeing government and repression that has molded points of view and discussions since its publication. It did so, not by conveying a single short brute force message, but by weaving a world of misery and making characters whose lives and actions and points of view arise naturally within and from that miserable existence.

He also deliberately gives us a story of hope crushed and love destroyed, because that story brings forth his meaning in a manner that scars the mind and stays with the reader.

1984 is not a message story, it is a deliberately meaningful story.
 

Natira

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I don't see anything wrong with thinking of a message to build the story around. I personally have thought about the intended lesson to build my story upon. As long as the sole purpose of the story is not to lecture the reader.
 
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