Working For Free

MDSchafer · Jan 29, 2014

So among other things I do some Indycar blogging for a Sports Illustrated website. Every few months or so I get contacted by someone who "Talk to me about a position," they have. It's gotten to the point now where my first question I have is a "Is it a paying position?" and the answer is always, "No, but..."

I turn down ever offer out of hand really because they don't have anything to offer. There is something dramatically wrong with an industry if people think they can ask you to work for free. I mean if there are ads someone is making money, so someone is getting paid.

Is there a protocol for turning people down and not sounding greedy?

Torgo · Jan 29, 2014

MDSchafer said:
So among other things I do some Indycar blogging for a Sports Illustrated website. Every few months or so I get contacted by someone who "Talk to me about a position," they have. It's gotten to the point now where my first question I have is a "Is it a paying position?" and the answer is always, "No, but..."

I turn down ever offer out of hand really because they don't have anything to offer. There is something dramatically wrong with an industry if people think they can ask you to work for free. I mean if there are ads someone is making money, so someone is getting paid.

Is there a protocol for turning people down and not sounding greedy?

"Sorry, but I don't work for free," isn't the least bit greedy, if you ask me.

NeuroFizz · Jan 29, 2014

Simple. Reply with your going hourly rate for doing such work and let them be the ones to say "no."

MDSchafer · Jan 29, 2014

NeuroFizz said:
Simple. Reply with your going hourly rate for doing such work and let them be the ones to say "no."

I like that

Jamesaritchie · Jan 29, 2014

The one thing I've found is that when people want writers to work for free, just about everyone else is getting paid. This even holds true for small magazines, online or off. Someone is being paid to print the paper magazine, and the ISP is getting paid for the online magazine. There's a good chance someone is also being paid to put the magazine online.

I've actually had editors say, "If we didn't pay them, there wouldn't be a magazine."

Got news for them. If it weren't for writers, there wouldn't be a magazine, either.

I've had charities approach me for free writing, and it seems like a great charity, but far more often than not, the organizes are very well paid. If I'm expected to donate my time, why aren't they donating theirs?

gingerwoman · Jan 29, 2014

There are too many people out there willing to work for free because they want "to be heard" or "to get their name out" uggg I've never done it. I was paid for my first published piece and every piece since.
On the other hand I remember my sister used to email me saying "I have a job, it doesn't pay but..." and I was like "what?" But she's an extremely successful copywriter/journalist now and maybe she did make a lot of connections, or build up a portfolio.
Perhaps you should just let people know you are too experienced now and you aren't building a portfolio.

Ken · Jan 29, 2014

I wrote for free for a bit. The pub was a really cool: run by a lady in the UK. It wasn't just for exposure but also being part of a community of writers sharing a similar outlook. Sorta like a support system. An encouraging one.

And here's something to consider.

What are all of us doing here on AW but writing for free.

And quite a lot of writing at that.
Check out the post counts !

<--

Bottomline: it ain't always about the money,
though money is of course welcome !

NinjaFingers · Jan 29, 2014

I simply inform them I don't work for free unless they can show me a 401(c). (I will, under certain circumstances, donate work, but never that much and only to people I really like and believe in).

Exposure is what you get when you don't pay the bills because you're spending too much time working for free.

MookyMcD · Jan 29, 2014

Ken said:
And here's something to consider.

What are all of us doing here on AW but writing for free.

And quite a lot of writing at that.
Check out the post counts !

<--

Bottomline: it ain't always about the money,
though money is of course welcome !

I'm reasonably certain I've taken more value than I've given here, and I strive to give as much value as possible. So I'm not doing it for "free," I'm underpaying. We're bartering our knowledge.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 29, 2014

NeuroFizz said:
Simple. Reply with your going hourly rate for doing such work and let them be the ones to say "no."

This seems like it should be more of a thing.

bearilou · Jan 29, 2014

Take a gander at what John Scalzi has to say about being asked to work for free.

Make sure to read the follow up, too.

warning: some NSFW language

In fact, then read this here by him.

LOTLOF · Jan 29, 2014

I have written 2.8 million words for free.

Those were fanfiction stories. I wrote them because I loved writing, it was my hobby and no one asked me to do it. On occasion I would get reviewers who would whine and complain about lack of updates or the path a story was taking. If they would be especially persistent I would sometimes remind them that I was not a professional and not being paid for my stories. That meant I was completely at liberty to write as much or as little as I pleased. I was under no obligation to anyone.

When I go into work I am under an obligation to do as my boss tells me. That is because I am being compensated for my time and effort.

If someone asks for your time and labor without offering you compensation, by definition that is not a job. Charity would seem a more fitting description. And if it is a charity you should feel free to tell them what and how much you are willing to donate.

It is in no way greedy to expect to be paid for your time and effort. No one is expected to work for free, whether you are a brain surgeon or a janitor. A simple, 'I am sorry, but I don't work for free' should suffice. If they take offense that is their problem.

LOTLOF · Jan 29, 2014

John Scalzi is now my hero and role model. "F*&k you, pay me."

Him and the Joker. "If you're good at something never do it for free."

Ken · Jan 29, 2014

MookyMcD said:
I'm reasonably certain I've taken more value than I've given here, and I strive to give as much value as possible. So I'm not doing it for "free," I'm underpaying. We're bartering our knowledge.

INDEED !

And that's what I was getting at. Writing has more rewards than $ (not to devalue the awesomeness of $.)

"Underpaying?" Really. For those familiar with your posts they'd say otherwise.

It's we who are indebted to Mooky for his insightful posts !

And that goes for a lot of you others.

Thnx for sharing for free !

Albedo · Jan 29, 2014

MookyMcD said:
I'm reasonably certain I've taken more value than I've given here, and I strive to give as much value as possible. So I'm not doing it for "free," I'm underpaying. We're bartering our knowledge.

I'm charitably donating my effusive personality here ~~by court order~~ for tax reasons.

Regarding the OP: if it was an unpaying, non-profit publication asking me to write on a topic I love, I'd consider it. But then, writing isn't my day job. Hell no, if a for-profit publication is just cutting its overheads by starving its actual content generators first.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 29, 2014

LOTLOF said:
John Scalzi is now my hero and role model. "F*&k you, pay me."

Him and the Joker. "If you're good at something never do it for free."

My vote is for Harlan Ellison. He's been giving this same rant for a long time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

jjdebenedictis · Jan 29, 2014

bearilou said:
Take a gander at what John Scalzi has to say about being asked to work for free.

Ah, yes. "Fuck you, pay me." Finest war cry ever devised for writers (and artists in general.)

Manuel Royal · Jan 29, 2014

Jamesaritchie said:
The one thing I've found is that when people want writers to work for free, just about everyone else is getting paid.

True, I'm sure -- but I was in an odd situation that was an exception. For a few months, I was an unpaid proofreader for an online science fiction magazine. (I'd complained to the editor about the apparent lack of proofreading in a number of stories, and finally offered to do it myself.)

At the same time, writers were getting paid .08 per word. And I honestly don't know how. The site had no advertisements, and the subscriptions (a story emailed to one, daily) were free. I have no idea what the magazine's revenue stream is.

gingerwoman · Jan 29, 2014

jjdebenedictis said:
Ah, yes. "Fuck you, pay me." Finest war cry ever devised for writers (and artists in general.)

John Scalzi is such a hero. <333

MookyMcD · Jan 29, 2014

I do find it ironic that, after reading that, I clicked to the front page and found an article by Delilah Dawson. Which, I assume, he did not pay her to write. Granted, she was promoting his book, but he mentions that, too.

LOTLOF · Jan 30, 2014

Reminds me of a marvelous scene from the TV mini-series I Claudius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp1mk9bdsdM

The Empress challenges the leader of the Guild of Prostitutes to a contest to see which of them can have sex with the most men in a day. The woman accepts, but when she shows up she is informed they expect her to do it for free. Her reply?

"I am a professional, I work for money."

Writers and whores; the two professions where no matter how skilled you are people still expect you to give it up for free.

bearilou · Jan 30, 2014

MookyMcD said:
I do find it ironic that, after reading that, I clicked to the front page and found an article by Delilah Dawson. Which, I assume, he did not pay her to write. Granted, she was promoting his book, but he mentions that, too.

Not really the same thing. She was writing about her book, not his.

First off, that's his Big Idea feature that he does to help promote writers. THEY submit something to him. HE approves it. THEY are benefiting from him publishing THEIR advertisement.

And...for free.

Also: His guest posting guidelines.. You'll note he is not a content farmer of any description. He doesn't pay to have someone blog on his blog, he doesn't have THEM pay either.

Second, comment about him writing his own blog for free from here:

7. If you try to mumble something at me about writing for free on this site, I might feed you to wild dogs. When I write here, it’s me in my free time. When I write somewhere else, it’s me on the clock. Here’s a handy tip to find out whether I will write for you for free: Are you me? If the answer is “no,” then fuck you, pay me.

And lastly: from here

As for any other reason you might think of, look: When I want to write for fun, then I do it. But when people come to me — especially people I don’t know — looking for writing, they’re asking for work. The work might have the potential to be fun, or interesting, or morally edifying or whatever, but it’s still work, and the bright line for work is this: You want work? You have to pay. Because it’s my skill and talent and expertise and time you are asking for, and they are all worth something.

The upshot is, John Scalzi will do as he sees fit. If he wants to write for free, he will. If he doesn't, his point is he has the right to say no and not get a ration of shit about it.

So if you or me or anyone wants to write for free, go right ahead. Only you can determine whether the writing for free will benefit you. His links really hit on the point that if you want to do it, do it but understand when someone says 'it's great exposure', only you can determine that and you still have the right to say no if it's not something you feel will really benefit you.

But go into it knowing what you're getting into.

I'll leave with this email exchange leaves me heaving in laughter.

Ken · Jan 30, 2014

bearilou said:
Take a gander at what John Scalzi has to say about being asked to work for free.

Make sure to read the follow up, too.

warning: some NSFW language

In fact, then read this here by him.

Jack London did similar. In his semi-autobiographical novel, "Martin Eden," he goes to the newspaper that didn't pay him for a story or two by going there in person and punching out the staff resulting in his getting paid.

In a worldly sense though it is often best to tread lightly about pay. I lost two gigs over money. With one I wrote a note with a Sharpie saying PAY ME ! And they did, but that was the last I heard from them. With the other I asked/demanded a raise. They sent me a check. My last :-(

bearilou · Jan 30, 2014

Ken said:
Jack London did similar. In his semi-autobiographical novel, "Martin Eden," he goes to the newspaper that didn't pay him for a story or two by going there in person and punching out the staff resulting in his getting paid.

In a worldly sense though it is often best to tread lightly about pay. I lost two gigs over money. With one I wrote a note with a Sharpie saying PAY ME ! And they did, but that was the last I heard from them. With the other I asked/demanded a raise. They sent me a check. My last :-(

Oh yeah. For sure. I mean, we're not Scalzi or Ellison, so saying "fuck you, pay me" is not the most tactful way, especially if you don't want to burn any bridges.

I guess the take away is that it's okay to want to be paid, it's okay to say no. And anyone who wants to wave the banner of "OMG SELFISH BASTARD" is a pretty good indicator that I'm not the one being selfish. :/

JournoWriter · Jan 30, 2014

MookyMcD said:
I do find it ironic that, after reading that, I clicked to the front page and found an article by Delilah Dawson. Which, I assume, he did not pay her to write. Granted, she was promoting his book, but he mentions that, too.

She was promoting HER book. It's a regular guest blog feature he does.

Working For Free

MDSchafer

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

MDSchafer

Jamesaritchie

gingerwoman

Ken

NinjaFingers

MookyMcD

I go to eleven

Liosse de Velishaf

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

LOTLOF

LOTLOF

Ken

Albedo

Alex

Jamesaritchie

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

Manuel Royal

gingerwoman

MookyMcD

I go to eleven

LOTLOF

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

Ken

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

JournoWriter

Just the facts, please