Love

Deepthought · Jan 26, 2014

Hi,

I'm a Sufi Muslim, and basically it is about love. Humans were created to know God, and although there are other sentient creatures that know God, humans are the best and can reach the highest level of love. Although Muslims worship God to get into paradise and avoid the fire, the Sufi wants to not even care about that, as Rabiah al-Basri ra once said:

If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.

But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty.

Doing the right thing for the sake of love, not for rewards. It's like a person who loves another, in a way, not marrying for the sake of that old rich dude's wallet. Because really, most Muslims do what they do because of heaven.

kdnxdr · Jan 27, 2014

I am a Christian. According to the scriptures, God IS Love.

What is interesting about love is that it is not selective but is expressed unconditionally, universally.

When humans make a willful decision to express their thoughts, feelings and behavior as love, they fail. Humans, of their own capacities are incapable of truly loving, free of bias or desire of gain. So, I don't see how, of their own accord, humans are capable of loving, at all.

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 27, 2014

kdnxdr said:
I am a Christian. According to the scriptures, God IS Love.

What is interesting about love is that it is not selective but is expressed unconditionally, universally.

When humans make a willful decision to express their thoughts, feelings and behavior as love, they fail. Humans, of their own capacities are incapable of truly loving, free of bias or desire of gain. So, I don't see how, of their own accord, humans are capable of loving, at all.

Human striving always fails relative to the goals we envision, but that doesn't mean we should simply discard our efforts. The human ability to love comes in our acceptance of and joy in the effort and accomplishments of others.

Any parent who has ever been overjoyed by a childish drawing, any lover who delights in a gift given from the heart, any friend grateful for a shoulder to cry on, or a needed kick in the backside, and anyone who helps out a stranger in need shows the human capacity for love.

ColoradoGuy · Jan 27, 2014

kdnxdr said:
I am a Christian. According to the scriptures, God IS Love.

What is interesting about love is that it is not selective but is expressed unconditionally, universally.

When humans make a willful decision to express their thoughts, feelings and behavior as love, they fail. Humans, of their own capacities are incapable of truly loving, free of bias or desire of gain. So, I don't see how, of their own accord, humans are capable of loving, at all.

That seems pretty harsh to me.

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 27, 2014

Because the last few posts on the God Thread were turning into a discussion of Love, I thought I'd pull them out to start a new thread on this highly worthwhile subject.

kdnxdr · Jan 27, 2014

Then, you get a discussion about religion and a discussion about something that can't exist on it's own.

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 27, 2014

kdnxdr said:
Then, you get a discussion about religion and a discussion about something that can't exist on it's own.

That's a little confusing. This board is about religion and philosophy. Removing the posts to a new thread doesn't take them away from religion, it makes love the subject of its own religious and philosohical discussion.

So, do I gather you are asserting that Love cannot exist without God?

sassandgroove · Jan 27, 2014

Deepthought, thank you for sharing your pov.

Doing the right thing for the sake of love, not for rewards.

I think this is a good example of Love.

kdnxdr- I am also Christian, but I agree with ColoradoGuy, that is a bit harsh. We may not love as fully and completely as God but that doesn't mean we aren't capable of it.

It may be cliché but the Corinthians passage on love I think it a good definition.

1 Corinthians 13: 4-7 (New International Version said:
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Yeah as humans we aren't always patient or kind, and we envy and boast and dishonor others but that doesn't mean our efforts to love are invalid.

kuwisdelu · Jan 27, 2014

kdnxdr said:
When humans make a willful decision to express their thoughts, feelings and behavior as love, they fail.

But do we make a willful decision to express our thoughts, feelings, or behavior as love?

No, we don't. Often, we love whether we want to or not. We can't help it.

That's why love can hurt so much. Because so often, we don't choose to love. We just do.

Humans, of their own capacities are incapable of truly loving, free of bias or desire of gain. So, I don't see how, of their own accord, humans are capable of loving, at all.

I don't think that's being very fair to humans. I think humans are pretty amazing.

Love isn't just a concept like "good" and "evil." It's an emotion. We gave it a name to describe a thing we feel. The word wouldn't exist if we didn't feel it.

A little while back, I posted on forgiveness over in Office Party. I'll quote that here, because my thoughts on love and forgiveness are rather entwined.

kuwisdelu said:
The beautiful thing about forgiveness is that no one is ever obligated to forgive. The very point of forgiveness is that it is given when it isn't deserved. No one can ask for forgiveness, or request it be given. I think true forgiveness is one of the most powerful and wonderful things a human being can do.

It's the willingness to see the good in someone who has wronged you, and accept their humanity, including their flaws. It's like pity, but with a dose of love. It's kindness, unadulterated.

I think I like a lot of what Christianity has to say about love and forgiveness. But where I don't agree is, for some reason, they say these are the domains of god. I find that pretty silly. Or maybe just cynical or pessimistic.

I think part of the amazing thing about mankind is that we have the power to love and forgive each other.

In fact, we have to, if we ever want to truly connect with one another.

What separates humanity from a god? After all, we can create. We can change the world. We can bring new life into it. We're the only species that has decided, if we don't like the rules, we can change them.

So what makes us different?

We were born separated. That's all. We're all tiny pieces of a god-like creature called humankind. We just need to reach out and come together to reach our potential. But we're flawed, and imperfect, and so when we reach out, we hurt each other. It's a terrifying thing, to try to connect to another human being. That's why we have to love and forgive. Opening yourself to love means opening yourself to pain. But love is how we overcome the pain we inevitably cause when we touch one another. Because love is greater than the pain. It's a force stronger than anything.

Forgiveness is just a form of true love. It's recognizing another person for who they are, and accepting all of them, even when they don't deserve it, for nothing in return.

I don't think I believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god.

But I do believe in humankind. And love. And the hope that one day we can all learn to love, and to be loved, and to understand one another.

I think, maybe, that hope is my god. The words "I love you" are my prayer.

Deepthought · Jan 27, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
But do we make a willful decision to express our thoughts, feelings, or behavior as love?

No, we don't. Often, we love whether we want to or not. We can't help it.

That's why love can hurt so much. Because so often, we don't choose to love. We just do.

I don't think that's being very fair to humans. I think humans are pretty amazing.

Love isn't just a concept like "good" and "evil." It's an emotion. We gave it a name to describe a thing we feel. The word wouldn't exist if we didn't feel it.

A little while back, I posted on forgiveness over in Office Party. I'll quote that here, because my thoughts on love and forgiveness are rather entwined.

I think I like a lot of what Christianity has to say about love and forgiveness. But where I don't agree is, for some reason, they say these are the domains of god. I find that pretty silly. Or maybe just cynical or pessimistic.

I think part of the amazing thing about mankind is that we have the power to love and forgive each other.

In fact, we have to, if we ever want to truly connect with one another.

What separates humanity from a god? After all, we can create. We can change the world. We can bring new life into it. We're the only species that has decided, if we don't like the rules, we can change them.

So what makes us different?

We were born separated. That's all. We're all tiny pieces of a god-like creature called humankind. We just need to reach out and come together to reach our potential. But we're flawed, and imperfect, and so when we reach out, we hurt each other. It's a terrifying thing, to try to connect to another human being. That's why we have to love and forgive. Opening yourself to love means opening yourself to pain. But love is how we overcome the pain we inevitably cause when we touch one another. Because love is greater than the pain. It's a force stronger than anything.

Forgiveness is just a form of true love. It's recognizing another person for who they are, and accepting all of them, even when they don't deserve it, for nothing in return.

I don't think I believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving god.

But I do believe in humankind. And love. And the hope that one day we can all learn to love, and to be loved, and to understand one another.

I think, maybe, that hope is my god. The words "I love you" are my prayer.

There is a saying in Islam: Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy).

Humans are unique because we can reflect all qualities and attributes that are of God, unlike animals and such. In Christianity, like in Islam, there is a saying where God created humans in His own image. Christians take it literally, by body, maybe other ways as well, but the Sufi take is that we reflect the attributes. God has an ocean, and humans can drink from it according to their capacity. Same can take more, some less.

Rufus Coppertop · Jan 28, 2014

Deepthought said:
In Christianity, like in Islam, there is a saying where God created humans in His own image. Christians take it literally, by body,

I know some Christians who do not take that literally. Some Jews as well.

Moses Maimonides in 'The Guide of the Perplexed' says that the meaning of man being created in God's image is that we have intellectual apprehension as does God.

kdnxdr · Jan 28, 2014

So, shall we think that love is to be considered in it's generic form with all of it's own loveliness? Or, do we think of love as it's various forms: Eros, Philo and Agape?

kdnxdr · Jan 28, 2014

I'm thinking we might have to give Agape it's own thread.

kuwisdelu · Jan 28, 2014

kdnxdr said:
So, shall we think that love is to be considered in it's generic form with all of it's own loveliness? Or, do we think of love as it's various forms: Eros, Philo and Agape?

Well, not everyone thinks exactly like the ancient Greeks, so it's probably best to leave it up to people to define what they mean by "love."

RichardGarfinkle · Jan 29, 2014

It seems to me that the division between Eros, Philia, and Agape reveals more about the culture and people who came up with those divisions than they do about anything inherent to love.

Nowadays, there's a common idea (to which I subscribe) that romantic and erotic love should go hand in hand with friendship. I also think that love should provide an exchange of inspiration that the ideas of the people one loves should set ones mind alight (and vice versa).

I don't know if the following is historically accurate, but I've assumed that the view of Love espoused by the Sufi masters was, at least in part, responsible for inspiring the idea of Courtly Love which in turn lead to our modern idea of Romance as something that elevates people above themselves.

ColoradoGuy · Jan 29, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Well, not everyone thinks exactly like the ancient Greeks, so it's probably best to leave it up to people to define what they mean by "love."

And interested folks should of course take a look at Nygren's Agape and Eros, one of the most influential religious books of the 20th century, at least for Protestants.

Roxxsmom · Jan 29, 2014

ColoradoGuy said:
That seems pretty harsh to me.

To me also, especially because I'm not really a theist (on my most religious days, maybe I'm a pantheist or Deist). It also sort of implies that there's no point in even trying. Granted, we often fall short of our own (or God's, if that's your point of moral reference) ideals, but that doesn't mean that human love is nothing.

Deepthought · Jan 29, 2014

There is a common theme in Sufi stories of love, where the highest level is self-annihilation. Similar to Buddhism, I think. They call it Nirvana, or something, unless that's Hinduism. Or both, I can't remember. Basically, one loses the sense of self. There was a story when a a woman fell into the water, and the man fell in as well. She was far, and once the people got them out, or got them self out, the man said he was so in love that he thought he was her and so he fell into the water. A famous story to illustrate the point is of Mansur al-Hallaj when he said "I am Truth", that is to say, God. They killed him for it, but he didn't mean he was God himself, only that he was so into it that he understood a portion of the Truth, and that he didn't separate "I" and the object of his love. Because otherwise, it would have meant he had sense of self at the time, hence a barrier to the Beloved.

AgentCooper · Jan 29, 2014

I'm not religious in the slightest, but I don't think that a human being's capacity for love should be diminished or cast aside entirely with this mindset.

I'm sure that virtually every person has their own idea as to what, specifically, constitutes love, but that doesn't make it something that isn't entirely real. It's an emotion, a way a person feels based on their own personal experience and/or expectations.

It can be unconditional, the way that many parents feel for their children, or it can be romantic love. Romantic love is not always unconditional; it is, in fact, seldom unconditional.

Squids · Jan 31, 2014

kdnxdr said:
I am a Christian. According to the scriptures, God IS Love.

What is interesting about love is that it is not selective but is expressed unconditionally, universally.

When humans make a willful decision to express their thoughts, feelings and behavior as love, they fail. Humans, of their own capacities are incapable of truly loving, free of bias or desire of gain. So, I don't see how, of their own accord, humans are capable of loving, at all.

Something I really took to when I accepted Jesus was the concept in Christianity that "Love" is a verb. Not just a mushy feeling, but something you do. When Jesus says to love your neighbor and to love God, He didn't just mean the feeling. That's a great concept that I've seen some awesome pastors apply to marriage and raising children.

Siri Kirpal · Jan 31, 2014

RichardGarfinkle said:
I don't know if the following is historically accurate, but I've assumed that the view of Love espoused by the Sufi masters was, at least in part, responsible for inspiring the idea of Courtly Love which in turn lead to our modern idea of Romance as something that elevates people above themselves.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Courtly Love appears right after the Crusades. Yes, the Crusaders brought the concept home with them. It's funny that it influenced our current romantic notions of love and courtship, because the purpose of courtly love is more: Love that can't be consummated with a person turns into a spring board for the consummation of the yearning soul with the Divine (as in Dante).

I personally find it sad that we so often hear the word "love" and think "sex" instead. Which is not to say that sex isn't necessary or that it's bad. Which is also not to say that love and sex aren't part of the same continuum. I just wish I could sign my posts "Love & Blessings," without problems.

Other than that, I agree with kuwisdelu that forgiveness is an act of love.

I also think that love is a verb and that it's undefinable. So, that's all I can say.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Realspiritik · Mar 1, 2014

Siri Kirpal said:
Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)
I just wish I could sign my posts "Love & Blessings," without problems.

I understand why you say this, though I find it sad.

As a practising Christian mystic (of a heretical sort) and as a person who also has great faith in the hard sciences, I'm often exhausted by the effort to not speak of love and forgiveness in the world around me.

This thread begins with a beautiful quote about love, and I'd just like to say thanks to Deepthought for posting it:

If I adore You out of fear of Hell, burn me in Hell!
If I adore you out of desire for Paradise,
Lock me out of Paradise.

But if I adore you for Yourself alone,
Do not deny to me Your eternal beauty.

I totally get this.

Siri Kirpal · Mar 1, 2014

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Yes, it's a beautiful poem.

You can still speak of love and forgiveness (and especially if you combine those two) in this scientific, less than mystic world. Although it's true that I wish I could sign off with "Love & Blessings," just sending "Blessings" is an act of love, and if you could see my reps, you'd know it touches people. Love is a verb, and we can love and forgive through our actions in ways that don't exhaust us. As writers, we can talk about love, without ever using the word. (I have a poem, a sonnet, that people immediately know is about love, though the word doesn't appear at all.) It can be done.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Realspiritik · Mar 2, 2014

Siri Kirpal said:
You can still speak of love and forgiveness (and especially if you combine those two) in this scientific, less than mystic world. Although it's true that I wish I could sign off with "Love & Blessings," just sending "Blessings" is an act of love, and if you could see my reps, you'd know it touches people. Love is a verb, and we can love and forgive through our actions in ways that don't exhaust us. As writers, we can talk about love, without ever using the word. (I have a poem, a sonnet, that people immediately know is about love, though the word doesn't appear at all.) It can be done.

I have a personal experience of what it's like to live in a world where it's normative for love, science, and faith to be separated from one another. My experience is based on many years of intensive daily practice. I know what I feel, and I'm comfortable with what I feel. I know I feel exhausted, but this has never stopped me from doing my best each day to love and forgive.

I completely agree that we can love and forgive without ever using the words. I do it every day. There are times, however, when I long to use the words.

I apologize for not being clear about this in my earlier post.

Jen

Siri Kirpal · Mar 2, 2014

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Nothing to apologize for. I do understand about the way culture can separate things I long to join together.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

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