Struggling with meaning and theme

Hi, and welcome to the board.

Some great books just tell stories straight out, without underlying layers of symbolism and theme. If that's what you're comfortable with, go for it. I wouldn't recommend trying to shoehorn depth into your narratives.

Theme and meaning can develop organically as the story is being written. You don't have to start out with one in mind for it to be there. Some people don't. Some people wait to see what crops up and during the editing process go back and emphasize it. Some people start with a theme before they ever come up with a single character.

As far as other people seeing things in your stories, they'll do that no matter what. If you start out with a specific theme, they'll see things that you never meant to put in and sometimes miss the deliberate stuff entirely.

MookyMcD said:

Hi, and welcome to the board.

Some great books just tell stories straight out, without underlying layers of symbolism and theme. If that's what you're comfortable with, go for it. I wouldn't recommend trying to shoehorn depth into your narratives.

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+1

Sometimes, a story is just a story. Is there something inherently wrong with that? Does everything have to have five layers of Meaning and interlocking Symbols in order to be enjoyed? Does it make your enjoyment invalid, somehow, if you can't write a college-level dissertation on its profundity? If you sincerely want to write complex literary tales, I'd suggest starting simply - crafting a solid story skeleton - then working outward.

Incidentally, it's also common for people to read Deep Themes and Messages into works that were never intended by their creators. Beware of trying to squeeze too much depth and forethought out of everything you experience, assuming that every author is consciously crafting a Work of Staggering Genius; you'd be amazed how many of them were just trying to tell a story.

What is your story about? If your friends loved it, you must have connected to them in some way. That means there is a deeper theme--something people connect with.

There are lots of famous novels that get dissected in colleges courses for its symbolism and themes. But if you were to ask the authors, they'd tell you it didn't mean anything. They were just telling a story.

One of the things I like about stories is that other people find meaning in stories that you yourself might not. Maybe you put something in there, maybe it grows organically, maybe someone finds poignancy in there that you yourself didn't intend.

Just tell the story. Meaning will work it's own way in there, IMO

As others have said, there is no reason you MUST weave themes and motifs into your stories. Maybe your main character drinks Pepsi instead of Coke because he likes it. No editorials on pop culture are necessary (But a good pun is compulsory!)

What happens to me is that I'll put themes into my writing without meaning to because certain things are important to me. Writing is part of how I express my interpretations of the world, although it's not precisely why I write.

Write yer story. Have characters interact in situations, argue, love, hate, be vengeful, generous, heroic, cowardly, slimy, untrustworthy, stupid, and write their story.

Let readers sort out theme and meaning if they wish to do so. Mark Twain, in his short preamble to Huck Finn, warned readers that if they attempted to find a moral to the story, they would be banished. Then he went on to produce not only The Great American Novel, but The Great American Moral Novel.

caw

Sometimes themes are planned, but sometimes they emerge as you tell a story, maybe even on revisions.

Heck, I discovered a theme in my novel after a couple of people read the first draft and made comments.

Anyway, not every story has to have grand layers of nuanced meaning. Sometimes a story is just meant to be straightforward and entertaining.

OP - if you can write a story that people like, be happy! & as regards to 'what this means?' - if people find a meaning there, then that meaning is there, even if the writer wrote the story without intending to put a meaning there or with a different idea of what it meant. When people ask me about what things mean, I turn the question around and ask them 'what do *you* think it means?'. If pushed, I refuse to tell people what my intention was when I wrote a given thing. The reason being that some will give my ideas precedence over their own ideas, simply and only because I wrote the text. Meaning is in the mind of the reader.

Hope that made sense, and that that perspective might help.

& last but not least - keep in mind the words of Samuel Goldwyn: "If you got a message, call Western Union."
(for the sticklers - real attribution is Moss Hart, apparently.)

Anytime this conversation comes up about an author's 'deeper meaning', I always trot out this comic because it's never not relevant.

http://www.mummycomics.com/archive/spoilers/

I also recall an anecdote about a well-known American writer, who having walked into a lecture hall, realized the class was discussing one of his works. (He'd been 'set up' by a friend to meet him there.)

Anyhow, after sitting through the class he told the friend, "I had no idea I'd written all that."

(I believe the writer was John Knowles, but not 100% sure of that. I was told this by an English professor when I was in college.)

The thing I take away from these stories is that either most 'deeper meanings' are either bullsh*t, or they're so personal and in that every meaning is correct if the reader thinks so.
So I really shouldn't have gotten that zero for saying 'People are idiots' when discussing the meaning of Romeo and Juliet.

"NOTICE
PERSONS attempting to find a motive in this narra- tive will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot.
BY ORDER OF THE AUTHOR,
Per G.G., Chief of Ordnance."

To quote Mark Twain from Huckleberry Finn. (It's referenced above, but it's worth quoting). And, as said, there is deeper meaning to be found, but I think the point is that it can and should be more organic.

If I recall correctly, in Stephen King's On Writing, he talks about how he just write the first draft and then goes back and reads it, and picks up on themes that he didn't even know were there. (Even if you haven't noticed any, did any of your friends have guesses on meaning? Did any of them resonate with you?) And then in his rewrites he takes the time to include examples of those natural themes throughout the book. I don't think he changes the plot to serve the theme, but rather he sees where the plot connects or could easily connect with the theme and adds something to bring that to the attention of the reader. That's something that works for me as well, but I can understand it might not work for everyone.

And, on a related matter, I am looking forward to one day having a book of mine printed with Book Club Discussion Questions in the back so that I can sarcastically fill in the answers.

When I had my first story published there were a few of my friends (teachers) who wanted to discuss it with me. I was like - what? I even had one very literate fellow want to discuss theme and location and so on. I found it flattering, but was sort of at a loss. Same thing happened when I went to NYC and met my editor. Her assistant wanted to discuss what it was like being an 'outsider' and tried to initiate a discussion with me and my sister. (My sister was wth is this about? She's an outgoing sort and never had an 'outsider' moment in her life.)

People see elements in literature which sometimes are deliberately placed there, and other times not. I have no doubt I write about being alone - a fascinating condition for which I have great affection - and other things, as well. I like to think about this stuff, but I never deliberately 'write it into' the story. One of my stories is on the reading list at a few high schools and I'd love to know what they talk about when they talk about it. I prob. shall never know.

jaksen said:

Anyhow, after sitting through the class he told the friend, "I had no idea I'd written all that."

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Had the very same experience - got a long, long email from a reader, stating how s/he loved how I did this and that and all this other stuff - first time I'd realized how deep a story I'd written! LOL

To the OP - yeah, as the others have said, just tell your story. Frankly, I've found most (not all) stories where the author deliberately went for "deep meaning and profundity" to be extremely contrived and quite boring...

Don't worry too much. Good stories are smarter than their authors. You always communicate more than you intend to communicate. No such thing as "just a story". What's on the page is always just the tip of the iceberg. Even stuff like Twilight has tons of subtext. Whether the author intended to have it there is completely irrelevant for the reader.

The only problem of a non-deliberate approach to tropes, subtext and implied worldview is that you might end up accidentially playing into patterns you don't actually support, just because you never became aware enough to question them.

chompers said:

There are lots of famous novels that get dissected in colleges courses for its symbolism and themes. But if you were to ask the authors, they'd tell you it didn't mean anything. They were just telling a story.

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This and everything about this.

But in a related note, these type of classes are meant to make you think outside the box. In fact, it pretty much trains your brain to look for them. I took Shakespeare's drama's in college and it made me think about symbolism and motifs more than I ever had before. I also took ethics and philosophy. I encourage you to maybe sign up for them if it's really bothering you. You won't regret it.

However, as I write my own stories, I can tell you with all honesty that I don't write with any symbolism. If they reader catches something, then it's their own interpretation of the story. Which is great.

Stories have a funny way of coming together on a deeper level all by themselves.

Either way, there's nothing wrong with you. You read and watch movies because you enjoy them. Entertainment should be a writer's first and foremost objective. If they entertain, then they did their job.

I'm with those who think theme is an emergent quality of the work itself. You can aim for profundity, but what emerges'll be as stiff as last week's pants.

Thematic content is extremely important in storytelling--it gives them purpose and fundamentally strengthens them, just as good story structure does. Sometimes a story's themes are deliberately planned (an author builds the story around a particular theme), and sometimes, because most stories are about human beings acting in human ways, it happens organically.

Lots of people enjoy intellectualizing everything to death. I'm not one of them. I don't worry or care about themes and symbolism.

They were asking me "Oh, what does this and that represent?" and I had to tell them "nothing" because I hadn't thought about theme or symbolism.

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Nothing is a fine answer.

I remember studying symbolism and meaning in college and had to write a paper about it. I found a great author's quote (it's been ages so forgive me I can't cite it now) where they grilled him on the themes and meaning, one in particular about the colors of dresses to which he responded "it's just fudging blue. I like blue."
Readers will apply their own meanings if you manage to tell an effective story.

As others have said, just tell your story. Readers and critics will find all sorts of them and meaning, even if you had no idea it was in there. Often even if it isn't in there.