Woman using martial arts, trying to avoid myths

Status
Not open for further replies.

afarnam

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
197
Reaction score
10
Location
Mnichovice, Czech Republic
Website
www.ariefarnam.com
Hi, any martial arts buffs out there? I have two characters who need to be quite good in martial arts. I haven't exactly decided which tradition they should use. I know mostly Aikido and I don't think that is combat oriented enough. I know Judo to some degree but these are people who are too light to rely on something so strength based. These are characters who trained to fight for real, such as in a special ops unit, not for sport.

Character 1: A Japanese woman but very international in life experience, so her tradition doesn't have to come from Japan necessarily, although it would be a plus. She's about medium sized, in excellent physical form but obviously not hot on brute strength.

Character 2: A smaller southeast Asian man. Same thing goes about international experience. They have worked together since they were teenagers, so could easily have had the same teacher and the same tradition.

Now, as to the scene. They are basically acting as bodyguards for a third character. The problem is that they have to go into a building with its own security and they can't take overt weapons. Then, when they come out, before they get into their vehicle, they are attacked by at least a dozen guys with guns. The guys with guns DO NOT want to kill them or the person they are protecting right off the bat. They would much rather capture the person they are guarding to get information by unsavory means but they won't let them escape. So, they stop them by shooting in front and behind them. Is it reasonable to say that one of bodyguards who is very advanced in martial arts would simply try to use his body to protect the actually even smaller person he is guarding and wouldn't be doing very much fighting? Is there anything he could do from a martial arts perspective while physically protecting this person?

The other body guard (the woman) is going to try to do whatever she can to hold off the attackers, perhaps in hopes that armed friends who are on a street beyond the gated parking lot in front of them will be able to come to their aid. There is a fourth character with them who does not have much martial arts training (about age 50) and who was walking in front. This guy basically reacts by laying on the ground when the shooting starts and I'm assuming he doesn't do much.

So, here's the tough question. I've seen the action movies where a master at some martial art or other battles people with guns. I always figured this was pure fantasy. Does anyone know if a master at martial arts could do anything at all, when surrounded by at least four attackers with guns plus more distant snipers. She does not want to be captured at all cost and would far prefer to die in the fight, for reasons of the alternative reality in my story, so don't event think about arguing with that. But I want to make it so the attackers CAN subdue her without killing her. The attackers don't have nearly as much martial arts ability as her but there are more of them and they have guns. My current idea is that they shoot her in the leg, thus getting her down but she still tries to fight because she will do anything to stop them from capturing her. One of them comes in behind her and puts a cord around her throat, which more effectively subdues her. Does that seem reasonable, even if she is very good with hand-to-hand fighting?

Help! Thanks. :)
 
Last edited:

Drachen Jager

Professor of applied misanthropy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
17,171
Reaction score
2,284
Location
Vancouver
So, here's the tough question. I've seen the action movies where a master at some martial art or other battles people with guns. I always figured this was pure fantasy. Does anyone know if a master at martial arts could do anything at all, when surrounded by at least four attackers with guns plus more distant snipers. She does not want to be captured at all cost and would far prefer to die in the fight, for reasons of the alternative reality in my story, so don't event think about arguing with that. But I want to make it so the attackers CAN subdue her without killing her. The attackers don't have nearly as much martial arts ability as her but there are more of them and they have guns. My current idea is that they shoot her in the leg, thus getting her down but she still tries to fight because she will do anything to stop them from capturing her. One of them comes in behind her and puts a cord around her throat, which more effectively subdues her. Does that seem reasonable, even if she is very good with hand-to-hand fighting?

Help! Thanks. :)

Any reasonable martial artist will tell you they don't fancy their odds against one armed opponent. You only do it if it's a last resort.

One on four is suicide.

IMO your question is more about bodyguarding than it is about martial arts. I'm no expert, but I think, the bodyguards would rush the VIP to the car and try to escape. Only if there was no hope of that would they pursue some kind of desperate action.

They're trained to put themselves between a shooter and the VIP.

Nobody would hire a suicidal bodyguard. I suppose the VIP doesn't know about her deathwish.

I can understand why the baddies want to capture the VIP, but why wouldn't they simply kill the bodyguards? They're not worried about the noise, since you say they're shooting anyhow. Even if they let the bodyguards live, why would they bring them along?
 

Sketti

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
65
Reaction score
8
Wait, you lost me along the way. Who is it that doesn't want to be captured at all cost? The bodyguard woman or her employer?

Anyway, I know nothing about bodyguarding but I used to do Wing Chun Kung Fu. Our teacher taught us that it was developped by a woman, primarily for women and it was a style of Kung Fu that relied on other aspects of fighting than brute strength. And trust me, I don't do brute strength ;) There were plenty of men in the class too and the teacher was male, the grand-master was male etc.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
Yeah, I don't really see this making sense. Why do they want to capture the bodyguards? And the whole point of having a gun is so that you don't have to get up close and get your gun taken off you and your head broke...

And four gunmen? Uh huh. Get in the car and get gone.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
As to your original question, Wing Chun is very good for women but it's close up fighting.
 

Bing Z

illiterate primate
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
3,788
Reaction score
999
Location
New Jersey
So, here's the tough question. I've seen the action movies where a master at some martial art or other battles people with guns. I always figured this was pure fantasy. Does anyone know if a master at martial arts could do anything at all, when surrounded by at least four attackers with guns plus more distant snipers. She does not want to be captured at all cost and would far prefer to die in the fight, for reasons of the alternative reality in my story, so don't event think about arguing with that. But I want to make it so the attackers CAN subdue her without killing her. The attackers don't have nearly as much martial arts ability as her but there are more of them and they have guns. My current idea is that they shoot her in the leg, thus getting her down but she still tries to fight because she will do anything to stop them from capturing her. One of them comes in behind her and puts a cord around her throat, which more effectively subdues her. Does that seem reasonable, even if she is very good with hand-to-hand fighting.

I think you've watched too many Jacky Chan, Steven Seagal, and Jason Statham movies. The best plot development I see in your scenario is one of the bodyguards sacrifice himself to buy time for his partner to shove the protected person into a car or down the sewage manhole.

Wing Chun Kung Fu. Our teacher taught us that it was developped by a woman, primarily for women and it was a style of Kung Fu that relied on other aspects of fighting than brute strength. And trust me, I don't do brute strength There were plenty of men in the class too and the teacher was male, the grand-master was male etc.

The most famous celebrity to have practiced Wing Chun was Bruce Lee. I think there were a couple of movies that had come out the past few years about Yip Man, the grand master of Wing Chun and Bruce's teacher.
 

jclarkdawe

Feeling lucky, Query?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
10,297
Reaction score
3,861
Location
New Hampshire
Okay, ignoring the fighting aspect, the body guard aspect doesn't make any sense.

The body guards have to be unarmed because of security concerns of the building owner. Not unusual. The building has a gated yard for entering vehicles. Not unusual.

Somehow baddies get into the gated yard??? That means this is a setup where the guards have intentionally been disarmed. If this is an abduction, the odds are they'd do it in the building. If this is to kill someone, that's how it's going to end.

But if you want an abduction in the yard, the baddies let the guy get into the car, then lock the gate. Throw a grenade under the front end of the vehicle. Explosion stuns the occupants in back and usually twist the metal and blow the glass.

If you have two body guards, when exiting a building, one goes outside and checks the situation, while the other waits inside with the person they're protecting.

Your scenario doesn't make sense.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
Every time I've asked a sensei what they'd do if a guy pulled a gun on them, the answer is always the same: run.

Well. Okay. There are a few exceptions. They said they'd pull out their own guns.
 
Last edited:

afarnam

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
197
Reaction score
10
Location
Mnichovice, Czech Republic
Website
www.ariefarnam.com
Okay, I see that I'm not being understood here. There are three groups involved. The bodyguards are definitely the group at a disadvantage from the start. They weren't hired to protect the person. They aren't even professional bodyguards. I was just trying to make clear the roles. They are protecting this person for their own reasons. The building and its security is run by someone else but they aren't very good with security and generally not very motivated. They let the group with the body guards in to meet with an assembly of leaders but they won't let them bring weapons. When they leave they decide not to provide security to them or allow them to use a security exit for political reasons.

How the villains take over the gate and the guards there is another issue and I've got that well in hand. Suffice to say the villains took control of the gate and outside yard with no one the wiser inside. They hide in vehicles and around other structures so that the group inside will come out, thinking the gated parking lot is reasonably safe. They also have snipers in place. The group comes under attack in the middle of one of those huge broad stone or cement staircases that are in front of many European state buildings. It is quite a ways to go back and quite a ways to get to their vehicle. They are pretty much screwed. I originally thought the bodyguard-type characters would first try to physically shield the person they are protecting because they hope that their friends, who are armed and only a short distance away will hear the noise and come to help them. That is about the only real hope they've got.

The reasons why the attackers want to capture the bodyguard-type people alive as well, if possible, are not important to the technical discussion. They just would rather. They'll kill them if they have to though. They'll even kill the primary target, if they can't capture but they would rather not and short of them getting to their vehicle and trying to drive away there is little that would force them to. The bodyguards are well aware of this. All that is not important to the technical bits.

I'm just trying to figure out how armed attackers would subdue the woman who is skilled in martial arts without killing her. I have actually watched very few action movies, martial arts related or otherwise, but I vaguely remember seeing some unrealistic scenes involving martial arts people dodging bullets at some point and I wanted to get a more realistic view. I'm glad you say that is fantasy. Anyone want to comment on the actual technical issue? What happens if they shoot her in the leg? What is she going to be able to do at that point with her training?

I did study Wing Chun in one weekend class. I would have loved to continue that above all others, if I lived in an area with a teacher. I was not sure if it was combative enough to say that someone would train for that in a military special ops type of situation. Any comments on if that is a good tradition to mention or a different one?

Thanks all and sorry about the confusion. Plot suggestions are welcome I suppose as long as they allow for the set-up mentioned, the group of four people coming down these steps and all of them being subdued rather than killed in the attack. I am not crazy about the blow-up-the-front-of-the-car idea. I think the attackers would find that too great a risk of killing the occupants. They would rather subdue them outside the car, which seems like it ought to be very doable. I am just a bit out of my depth with the physical logistics, but I have the plot and premise well in hand. So, if you have any suggestions that even change the scenario, I'm all ears. I don't for instance require that the bodyguard-types with the martial arts training get to fight at all but I'm assuming they would try something, given their level of desperation to avoid capture.
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
You have a gun. You pull the gun. You level the gun at another person. You put your finger on the trigger. You do NOT shoot them in the leg. If you're shooting someone, you're shooting them. The 'shoot in the leg to disable and take off' is a movie thing.

Besides which, she's some kind of trained martial artist bodyguard. Shooting her in the leg isn't going to be much of a deterrent, likely, nor would they think it would/should be.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I'm afraid it's not going to work. It's just not a feasible situation. Not the way you've described it anyway. The 'bodyguards', if they are any good, will know within a few steps outside that there is something wrong. And why are they coming out together? One comes out to recce, one waits with the client. And when the shit starts, why aren't they hightailing it back into the building and out the servant's entrance?
The way it is at the moment they seem TSTL
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I don't for instance require that the bodyguard-types with the martial arts training get to fight at all but I'm assuming they would try something, given their level of desperation to avoid capture.

There is no martial art on the planet that stops bullets. The only thing they will try is to get their asses back under cover.
 

afarnam

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
197
Reaction score
10
Location
Mnichovice, Czech Republic
Website
www.ariefarnam.com
One does come out earlier. There is nothing out of the ordinary visible.

I think one mistake I am making is I have the villains with the wrong tactic. They would probably use one of those police-style light/noise grenades that stun people for a couple of seconds. Anyone know what that is called and how it works? How would that effect the people with martial arts training any differently?

Thanks. There is always a way to make anything work. It just depends on how much you have to change. As I said before, they can't go out a servant's entrance or they would have already tried that. They believe the parking lot is secure. The fourth character goes ahead and sees their vehicle pulling up. They think all is well.
 

afarnam

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
197
Reaction score
10
Location
Mnichovice, Czech Republic
Website
www.ariefarnam.com
Thanks. Anyone know how soon after one of those the people with the martial arts training are going to be able to react in any coherent way?

The specs I have on a police webpage says 5 seconds where your eyes don't work. But what does that mean in terms of being functional enough to try to fight someone off?
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
You can run quite far in 5 seconds. So your villians will be on your bodyguards before they have time to move. Never mind fight.
 

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
I train in a style that is very street self-defense oriented. Among other things, we practice gun takeaways extensively.

After practicing various gun takeaways probably thousands of times, I still would not try it except as a last resort. If someone is pointing a gun at me and he wants my wallet, I'm going to give him my wallet. The only way I am actually going to try to take the gun away from him is if I have no choice.

And the gun takeways we practice assume the gunman is an idiot (gets within arms' length of you, instead of standing out of reach - there are advanced techniques we teach at the black belt level for dealing with that, but they are pretty much "Hail Mary" moves).

Against four men with guns? Forget about it. If they're going to shoot me anyway, sure, I'll try to take them out and pray for a miracle. But outside of an action movie, that's pretty much what you need, a miracle.

Stun grenades: why would they affect a martial artist any differently than anyone else? I don't know of any way to train for being hit with a stun grenade.

A woman: even with a black belt, against four men, she's going to get beat down hard. She might be able to hurt a couple of them, but they will overpower her.
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
Okay, all the better. So, they don't get to fight at all. Solves a lot of problems. :)

See I told you this wasn't brought on by martial arts movies.

Ok, now I'm really confused.... I thought you wanted the woman to fight them off?
 

afarnam

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
197
Reaction score
10
Location
Mnichovice, Czech Republic
Website
www.ariefarnam.com
No, I said, I wanted the villains to subdue her without being forced to her because she won't give up. That's the whole point of the scene.

I did get a few more tips here on how to make my sort-of bodyguards more responsible in checking the situation beforehand, but they're still screwed. The fact that she is a martial arts master is simply known from other parts of the story, so it would seem stupid if she could be fighting them off and I didn't have her do it.
 
Last edited:

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
Oh! I see! Now I've got you.

Yeah, if you've established earlier she's a badass and want her overpowered without losing her badassery, stun grenade is the way to go.
 

ShaunHorton

AW's resident Velociraptor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
3,579
Reaction score
587
Location
Washington State
Website
shaunhorton.blogspot.com
Well, if the attackers have everything set in place like you say, I would also go so far as to state that they know a lot about the bodyguards and are likely prepared for them. Gun-type tasers tend to be pretty good at subduing people. There are also guns that shoot bean bags, or even types of adhesive. Even though it's kind of cheesy, you could even go with a tranquilizer gun.

Otherwise a flash-bang, followed with a pistol whip, and then restraints should work fine too.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.