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BlueTexas
03-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Anyone have experience with teenage girls? My extended family has asked me to talk to my cousins, who are 19 and 21, with the maturity of 15 year olds, about self-respect.

This is why: http://lovingtwilight.blogspot.com/

My family seems to think they'll listen to me. I have no idea what to say. Somehow I think "don't be a tramp," won't quite help.

Help!

Jaycinth
03-01-2006, 09:35 PM
May I suggest you bring them here and let them read some of the threads we post?

I know what is working with my 13 year old girl. I know what worked with my 19 year old boy. But they've been under my psycho influence for their entire lives. These girls are essentially adults and at that age where women get hardheaded, especially about men, and they are hard to reason with.

Hmmmm I think one of the best things I've done is take my daughter to help volunteer in a local displaced women's shelter. What some of the women have gone through is scary. My daughter has been on the honor roll every semester, since.

BlueTexas
03-01-2006, 09:40 PM
That's a really good idea--scaring them that way and making them help.

tiny
03-01-2006, 09:49 PM
I hate to say it, but 19 and 21 are hardly teenagers. These are grown women, though they may not be acting like it. I think one of the things that every parent should do (or anyone dealing with kids) is think back. Did I do things that make me cringe at the thought of my kids doing them? God, yes. Did I turn out alright? I think so. I'm pretty sure I did.

Can I ask, why is it that when boys act this way, they're just taking care of some "wild oats", but when girls do it, they're suffering from a lack of self-respect? I personally think that adults, which they both are, have the right to do what they please. Others may not like it, especially parents (fathers in particular), but it's really no one else's business what they do.

Plus, they aren't going to listen. Not like you want them to. They have to learn through walking their own path. That's the way it works. In my opinion, of course.

-chris

robeiae
03-01-2006, 09:51 PM
I don't know where they get their money to live off of and go to school, but if someone's paying all or part of both, get 'em to cut off the funds. Maturity is only a full-time job with no credit cards away.

Rob :)

Shadow_Ferret
03-01-2006, 11:17 PM
As Tiny Terror suggested. I'm wondering if their kids were the boys in the picture instead of the girls if they'd be so inclined to think they lacked self-esteem.

It appears to me they're all just having fun.

Ferret, who only has boys and would probably have locked his daughters in their room until they turned 35. (apologies to Maryn)

Jaycinth
03-01-2006, 11:19 PM
Ferret, who only has boys and would probably have locked his daughters in their room until they turned 35. (apologies to Maryn)

They will climb out of the windows. Trust me.

Shadow_Ferret
03-01-2006, 11:30 PM
Did I say locked? I was thinking more along the lines of "A Cask of Amontillado." :)

mdin
03-01-2006, 11:35 PM
I have plenty of experience with teenage girls! Just send them my way.

Seriously... they're 19 and 21. Based on the one myspace page, they're like every other 19 and 21 year old I know/knew. I know several women who were complete party sluts when they were that age--even with divorces and arrests and abortions--who grew up to be just fine. Trying to impose your "life skills" on them is infinitely more dangerous. They'll end up hating you and rebeling even more so. Let them find their way. And if they don't, there's nothing you could've done at this point.

Jcomp
03-01-2006, 11:37 PM
These "kids" are a little old to be getting this advice. Unless they still live under someone else's roof, then they're fair game.

Don't know the details (Sorry, can't access that link in the opening post, work firewall), but if it's about the girls sexing up too many guys, let them know that there is a double standard in this regard, because most guys are lucky to get some on any given day. That's why we pay for it sooooo much more often than girls. We're desperate for it and it's hardly a guarantee. It's like a starving kid finally stumbling onto a turkey sandwich, everyone's happy for him. (Bad analogy, food being essential and sex being...not...but you get the idea).

Girls, meanwhile, can have it whenever. So why settle. If you can eat steak and caviar and lobster whenever you please, everyone's going to point out that eating all of those damn twinkies isn't good for you, and you don't have to do that, so why are you doing it? That's where the double standard comes into play.

All that said, the way I see it, if you like twinkies you just like twinkies. What's the big deal?

Lantern Jack
03-01-2006, 11:40 PM
Anyone have experience with teenage girls? My extended family has asked me to talk to my cousins, who are 19 and 21, with the maturity of 15 year olds, about self-respect.

This is why: http://lovingtwilight.blogspot.com/

My family seems to think they'll listen to me. I have no idea what to say. Somehow I think "don't be a tramp," won't quite help.

Help!

Um, 19? 21? Those are hardly teenagers. The cut-off point for adolescence is either 18 or 19. Eighteen, probably, because I remember having to scan beer for all cashiers who were under 18 when I worked as a bagboy at Food Lion:)

eldragon
03-01-2006, 11:44 PM
How bad can they be if they give their blog addresses to their relatives?

tiny
03-02-2006, 12:09 AM
I'm wondering, did you look at their myspaces? Did you look at the pictures? One of the girls has a family pic. I don't see as their myspaces are all that bad. Most myspaces are a lot of puffing anyway. These girls aren't doing anything new.

I recently came across one of my karate student's myspaces (I keep an eye on my son's). She had white power sh!t all over it. Now there's a problem. I was horrified. Now I can't even look her way without seeing those slogans splashed across her.

Anyway, as always, my opinion.

-chris

motormouth
03-02-2006, 12:22 AM
I haven't seen the blog - wouldn't load on my computer, but at 19/21, I was doing stuff my parents thought was absolutely ridiculous. By the time they reach that age, parents have to trust that they've done a good job and leave it be.

(Unless they're still living with parents. Then the "my house, my rules" legislation can come into play).

At any rate, at their age, I was, while not sleeping around, certainly having a good time. I think I spent more time at parties than I did asleep.

Now, at the ripe old age of **, I am a boring old married who thinks a good time involves a book and a couch.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 01:35 AM
How bad can they be if they give their blog addresses to their relatives?

They didn't give out the addresses. The relatives that are asking me to talk to them found them on the internet. The girls don't know the we've all seen it. But if you put it on the internet, it's fair game.

eldragon
03-02-2006, 01:41 AM
They didn't give out the addresses. The relatives that are asking me to talk to them found them on the internet. The girls don't know the we've all seen it. But if you put it on the internet, it's fair game.


Still.


I must be missing something.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 01:41 AM
I'm wondering, did you look at their myspaces? Did you look at the pictures? One of the girls has a family pic. I don't see as their myspaces are all that bad. Most myspaces are a lot of puffing anyway. These girls aren't doing anything new.

I recently came across one of my karate student's myspaces (I keep an eye on my son's). She had white power sh!t all over it. Now there's a problem. I was horrified. Now I can't even look her way without seeing those slogans splashed across her.

Anyway, as always, my opinion.

-chris

She did have a family pic, and the only problem with that is that in her bio, she mentions her disabled brother as the best reason for her to remember to take her birth control. How do you think he'd feel if he saw that?

Granted, there are a lot of worse things, as you mentioned. But these girls are much younger than their years, and live under their mother's roof. The blogs are full of photos and entries which clearly show they have no respect for themselves either--basically, the rest of the family is seeing that they are looking for men to take care of them, have given up all interest in college, one flunked out, the other quit. The meddling relatives just want me to try and insert a postive influence and talk to them, not preach from on high, you know?

If there's one thing I can try and show them that might be helpful, it's that they need to have their own goals in life, and not expect some man to pave their way. And that's what I need advice about, for you guys who can't see the blog entry.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 01:45 AM
As Tiny Terror suggested. I'm wondering if their kids were the boys in the picture instead of the girls if they'd be so inclined to think they lacked self-esteem.

It appears to me they're all just having fun.

Ferret, who only has boys and would probably have locked his daughters in their room until they turned 35. (apologies to Maryn)

It's not just the pictures--there's more to it. It's the basic approach to life--or lack thereof--that has family asking me to talk to them. And past incidents, and allowing boyfriends to call them horrible things and treat them like chattle and probably beat them up. No proof of that yet, but strong suspicions.

tiny
03-02-2006, 01:46 AM
....The blogs are full of photos and entries which clearly show they have no respect for themselves either--basically, the rest of the family is seeing that they are looking for men to take care of them, have given up all interest in college, one flunked out, the other quit....


I flunked out of college and was asked to leave two. It took some time to graduate, but the race is not always to the swift.

Jcomp
03-02-2006, 01:52 AM
Okay, given all of that info, I could see the want for intervention. At this point, however, I must bow out, as I'm not nearly wise enough to be giving "grown up" advice. I'm still a kid myself. Good luck though.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 02:05 AM
I flunked out of college and was asked to leave two. It took some time to graduate, but the race is not always to the swift.

You still had the desire to go, right? They don't. They can just find a man to pay the bills and it'll all be ok, according to them.

Richard
03-02-2006, 03:35 AM
They didn't give out the addresses. The relatives that are asking me to talk to them found them on the internet. The girls don't know the we've all seen it. But if you put it on the internet, it's fair game.

.....yes. To be honest, the first thing that caught my eye wasn't so much the contents of the photo, but rather you blogging the equivalent of 'HOW DO I MAKE THIS WHITE TRASH HAVE SOME GODDAMN SELF-RESPECT?!' to the whole internet. That just seems like a fundamentally bad start for you, credibility wise - especially given that if you found their blogs, there's no guarantee they won't find yours. Just because something's fair game doesn't mean it's a good idea.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 03:37 AM
.....yes. To be honest, the first thing that caught my eye wasn't so much the contents of the photo, but rather you blogging the equivalent of 'HOW DO I MAKE THIS WHITE TRASH HAVE SOME GODDAMN SELF-RESPECT?!' to the whole internet. That just seems like a fundamentally bad start for you, credibility wise - especially given that if you found their blogs, there's no guarantee they won't find yours. Just because something's fair game doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I was actually hoping they would find my blog and see what other people think.

trumancoyote
03-02-2006, 03:39 AM
I was actually hoping they would find my blog and see what other people think.

And you think that'll make them respect themselves more?

tiny
03-02-2006, 03:48 AM
You still had the desire to go, right? They don't. They can just find a man to pay the bills and it'll all be ok, according to them.


No, honestly, I didn't.

Richard
03-02-2006, 03:51 AM
I was actually hoping they would find my blog and see what other people think.

Then you're basically screwed. That post is rude, and borderline abusive - the most likely result of them finding it is you getting locked out of the discussion for good. It's one thing asking for help dealing with teenage girls, it's a bit different to actually say 'Her and her, and here's a groping picture'.

The rantings of any internet psychologists in the comment thread is entirely irrelevant; the only people who can help in something like this is people who know them (and to be honest, you come across far worse in it - a relatively innocuous drunken photo and the titbit that one of them just got out of an abusive relationship is pretty damn shaky cause for 'Wow, when did you become this trampy?' I'm not saying you're wrong to worry, you understand, just that the evidence you present is hardly Soddom and Gomorrah)

If you genuinely want to help, it's a family and friends matter, for the people who know them and want to intervene. Their lives, at least the bits they don't choose to parade on a walled garden like MySpace, are simply none of the internet's business. Trying to make it otherwise is only going to make you the enemy in their eyes, and utterly kill your credibility when you try to speak on the matter.

Unique
03-02-2006, 03:55 AM
You still had the desire to go, right? They don't. They can just find a man to pay the bills and it'll all be ok, according to them.

There are plenty, plenty of women out there that still think like that. (And they aren't 19 & 21 either.) If they didn't learn there's more to life than being taken care of (and at what price)when they were 8 or 11, they aren't going to learn hearing it from you - they're going to have to learn the hard way.

What they're really going to learn is: yeah, it's fun now, but will those guys stick around? Or is their plan to make it so some guy 'has' to stick around?

And since they're your cousins, all I can say is you must be a lot closer to yours than I am to mine because - well, just because. You're their cousin, not their sister, mom, grandmom, aunt. Why do your relatives think they'd listen to you? Are you closer to them than anyone else? (I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around giving a cousin advice.)

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 04:12 AM
Then you're basically screwed. That post is rude, and borderline abusive - the most likely result of them finding it is you getting locked out of the discussion for good. It's one thing asking for help dealing with teenage girls, it's a bit different to actually say 'Her and her, and here's a groping picture'.

The rantings of any internet psychologists in the comment thread is entirely irrelevant; the only people who can help in something like this is people who know them (and to be honest, you come across far worse in it - a relatively innocuous drunken photo and the titbit that one of them just got out of an abusive relationship is pretty damn shaky cause for 'Wow, when did you become this trampy?' I'm not saying you're wrong to worry, you understand, just that the evidence you present is hardly Soddom and Gomorrah)

If you genuinely want to help, it's a family and friends matter, for the people who know them and want to intervene. Their lives, at least the bits they don't choose to parade on a walled garden like MySpace, are simply none of the internet's business. Trying to make it otherwise is only going to make you the enemy in their eyes, and utterly kill your credibility when you try to speak on the matter.

I didn't build a huge case online because I didn't want my cousins to find all their dirty laundry online. And I'm okay with them being angry at me--if they're mad at what I've said and they know what I've said is true, maybe it'll make them think. It's okay if I come across as far worse to outsiders, if it makes a difference in how they see their behavior. That's what matters.

I was just looking for some advice from someone who has dealt with this before, as I haven't. I'd love to hear advice from someone like that, if they have it.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 04:13 AM
And you think that'll make them respect themselves more?

No. I was thinking that would make them think about what they're doing with their lives.

trumancoyote
03-02-2006, 04:27 AM
But if they're already stuck in this spin-cycle of what you think is destruction, I doubt your posting their dirt for all the world to see will make them think. If they're not aware enough to have never gotten themselves in this 'situation' to begin w/... will they be introspective enough to make a change based on an online accusation?

You're right: they'll be angry. And they'll do worse and worse and worse to make up for it. Live up to the name -- that sorta' thing.

But that's just my opinion.

BlueTexas
03-02-2006, 04:33 AM
But if they're already stuck in this spin-cycle of what you think is destruction, I doubt your posting their dirt for all the world to see will make them think. If they're not aware enough to have never gotten themselves in this 'situation' to begin w/... will they be introspective enough to make a change based on an online accusation?

You're right: they'll be angry. And they'll do worse and worse and worse to make up for it. Live up to the name -- that sorta' thing.

But that's just my opinion.

Glad to see you have faith in the human spirit.

I'm just looking for advice from people who have been in this situation before, so that I can help, as my family has asked me to.

trumancoyote
03-02-2006, 04:40 AM
I've had to intervene before. And I've been intervened with.

And from my experience, rarely, very rarely, does any good come of it.

If you're looking for someone to agree w/ what you've done and are doing, I'm sorry, but I'm not that person.

I do hope things work out, though.

Fern
03-02-2006, 05:20 AM
Whew! I've been reading along and feel sure I should keep my opinion to myself but obviously I don't always follow my better instincts.

First off, I totally understand why your family is worried. I'm a little aghast that others seem to think their actions/postings are okay whatever their age. To me it seems a little dangerous to post so much personal info, where you work, etc. along with the kind of message their posts give about their behavior.

Along that line, if I were you I would remove the photo you have on your blog pronto! I'm not sure there couldn't be some repercussions from posting a photo like that of someone without permission? Don't know, but I'd be wary of it, and thats not to mention the fact that you're leading folks right to them.

Secondly, it isn't fair to throw a job in your lap that their parents were responsible for. I would tell my family I'm not getting in the middle of it because all that will do is alienate them from you if the chance ever did come available for you to put your 2 cents worth in.

Anyway, thats just one opinion. Take it for what its worth.

dahmnait
03-02-2006, 06:05 AM
Ok, I too was going to keep my opinion to myself...hmm...seems that I am not doing a good job of it. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

The only way to teach respect is to show respect. You want them to learn to respect themselves, then you have to show that there is something there to respect. What you are doing with your blog is quite opposite. You are judging them, and the last thing anyone wants is to be judged. At 19 and 21, they are adults, pure and simple. Preaching to them, or about them, will actually push them farther along the road they are going down. They won't feel shamed by your words; rather they will feel righteous indignation over you and the other family members judging them. I speak from experience.

(If you don't like what I have posted, then you have just put yourself in their shoes, and I didn't even judge you.)

If you truly care about the paths they have chosen, then you tell them that privately. Something along the lines of, "I love you, and I am very worried about some things I have seen recently..." Take it from there. Don't preach, and don't act holier than thou (that is how the blog comes across). Remember that we all have made mistakes in our lives and the majority of us come out ok. The only other bit of advice, only tell them once, and then let them know that you will respect their decisions, not because you agree with them, but rather because the decisions are theirs to make. Then if they do fall, and they probably will, you can decide whether to be there for them. Just remember the only person who benefits from "I told you so" is the person who says it.

If these girls didn't learn self-respect by now, the only way they will is through their experiences. They may take what you say with a grain of salt, but if you say it out of love, they won't forget your words. The same goes if you are judgmental. The difference is in what they eventually do with the words.

That said, you may want to think hard before getting involved. What right does the rest of your family have not only to judge these girls, but also to ask you to intervene? Whatever you decide has to come from you, not the rest of your family, or it means nothing. I wish you the best of luck whatever your decision.

This is coming from someone who has not only been there, done that (and more), but also survived the life experiences thrown my way.

poetinahat
03-02-2006, 06:12 AM
(If you don't like what I have posted, then you have just put yourself in their shoes, and I didn't even judge you.)
*cue chorus of angels, shafts of light appearing through clouds*

fallenangelwriter
03-02-2006, 06:30 AM
From what little you've said, I'm not sure i understand what the fuss is about.


is it the men, or the college, or what?

I say this because i think you'll need something specific to go forward with. there's nothing here obviously calling for intervention.

if you (and your family) simply have a general distaste ofr everyhting about them and tyheir lifestlye, intervention won't work. you can't go up to someone and say "here's how you can stop being a terrible person."

otherwis,e i think you'll need to look at specific coomplaints and decide what's their decisions and not your business, and what you really need to be involved with. I'd say to pick something specific and focus on that one issue. showing (sincere) understanding and tolerance is a must, especially on other issues. you may not approve, for instance, in their taste in men, but if you want to convicne to go back to school, I'd keep complaints about their companions to yourself.

by thinking it over firs,t oyu get an effective action plan, less risk of offending, and can squash whatever unhelpful busybody instincts you might possess.

DamaNegra
03-02-2006, 07:18 AM
I'm still a teenager, so my advice will either a) be of no worth for lack of maturity or b) be useful because I'm right there. Now, some may say that 19 and 21 is no longer teenager, but biological years have less impact than psychological years. I've known 46-year-olds with the maturity of an 18-year old. So age doesn't really matter.

Now, law number one of teenagers: they DON'T listen. If you come to them with a friendly "I love you and I'm very worried about you..." the teenager will instantly sense the preaching coming and will get to a very defensive position. 'Agression' by adults (which here means meddling into their lives) is countered by more agression from the teenagers. Nothing you can say will change their minds, especially because you are family. In my experience, total strangers have more credibility on a teenager's mind. The fact that you are related to the parents makes the teenager worry if you will tell them whatever they tell you, and that makes them distrust you deeply.

The only way they will see the light is with their own eyes, you can't lend them your eyes so they'll see the world the way you do. And if they don't want to correct their behavior, nothing on earth will make them do it. As they say here, "wanting is being able to". If they don't want to, they won't; simple as that. If they weren't taught self-respect in their early years, they won't be taught now. They've already been programmed with everything learned in their childhood and early teenage years, and it's very hard to erase that 'programming'.

I know it hurts a lot to see people we love do crazy and/or stupid things, but the best course of action is to do nothing. You can reach out to them and offer your support, but it must be a silent, unconditional support. You must stand by them and confort them when they need it. If they lack self-respect, treat them like valuable human beings and make them see, through your actions, than they deserve much more than they are getting. Words rarely have an effect on anyone, actions do. If you confront them about their weaknesses, they will sense that as an attack and become aggressive, and all the advances you could've made with them will be lost.

I also agree that putting that picture along with the blog entry up in the internet was the WORST IDEA POSSIBLE. If they stumble across it, they will feel insulted and it would do HORRORS to their self-esteem. If their own family can put them up for the whole world to see as an example of what NOT to do, then other people have the same right to treat them like that and their self-esteem will drop to the ground again. So I want you to ERASE THAT BLOG ENTRY right this moment and pray they haven't seen it. Believe me, it was the worst thing you could've done. Instead of listening to you, they will regard it as an attack and label you as a tattletale and 'the enemy', and all their trust in you will be lost. Of course, you will have no way of recovering that trust. And since you mentioned their family in the blog, they will lose the girl's trust too. You're doing more harm than good, believe me.


Hope this helps.

PS: I mean it, erase that blog entry.

ETA: And even though you still regard them as teenagers, they think of themselves as "'mature, competent adults' responsible enough to make their own decisions. They're grown-up, they're wise. They know how to handle situations. You wouldn't possibly understand."

WerenCole
03-02-2006, 07:42 AM
Glad to see you have faith in the human spirit.

I'm just looking for advice from people who have been in this situation before, so that I can help, as my family has asked me to.


You're kidding me, right? This conversation should not be taking place as far as I am concerned. I don't even want to get into the double standard thing because it is irrelevant.

There is little wrong with what is going on with these girls. They are young, they are having fun, they are going through the cycle. Being upset is BS. So you found their blogs and a couple comments that you may not agree with, who are you to judge. . . who is anybody? Mom and Dad may want to have a private chat, but in my estimation it should only be a chat and nothing else. There is no need for an "intervention."

If you have come to the conclusion as a family that they have serious substance abuse problems, that is a different story. I have serious substance abuse problems. Being "trampy" at their age is nothing new and they should not be faulted for this so called characteristic. For all one knows the guy in the photo got slapped for putting his hand on her breast. . . kids will be kids, and in 2006, kids are a little different even from my experience with that age, which is only five years ago.

Family guidance, that is it. Parents who ask their kids to lead a respectable existence out of respect for the parents. That is all my mother asks of me, and I don't hold up to it all the time, but it is in my mind. If the girls have respect for their parents and a general semblance of reality (which we all find eventually) then there is nothing wrong. There is nothing wrong in the first place.

And NO. . . I am not one of the guys in the photos.

Being naive is hurting everybody in this situation.

dahmnait
03-02-2006, 07:56 AM
I'm still a teenager, so my advice will either a) be of no worth for lack of maturity or b) be useful because I'm right there. Yes, but you are a mature teenager. :)

What I meant by the girls taking what is said with a "grain of salt" was better said by you.
Now, law number one of teenagers: they DON'T listen. If you come to them with a friendly "I love you and I'm very worried about you..." the teenager will instantly sense the preaching coming and will get to a very defensive position. However, in my experiences I do remember those words that were said out of love. It did take years for me to remember them fondly, but they sank in eventually. (I also remember those that were judgemental and I still have no use for them or the people who spewed them forth.)

You are absolutely right, at this time in these girls' lives, they probably won't listen no matter how it is said. After all, You wouldn't understand. ;)

rhymegirl
03-02-2006, 06:10 PM
I haven't read all of the posts above me, but I will attempt to answer this question.

I have a daughter who is 18. She's a good girl and she has plenty of self-respect. But she has it because I have talked to her all along the way since she was a little girl. If I simply tried talking to her about boys and men at this point in life, it would be too late. The conversations have to start early. She knows she can always come talk to me if she has any questions or problems. Luckily, she is more interested in developing her drawing skills, reading, going to classes, and hanging out with her girlfriends. She lives at home rather than on campus, so I know where she is most of the time. We have a very close relationship.

I don't know what you can tell those young women at this point. They probably won't listen or will just toss the advice aside. It is unfortunate.

brokenfingers
03-02-2006, 06:30 PM
Another thing to consider is that times have changed considerably from ten, twenty years ago.

Girls are now raised believing that they are the equal of boys in every manner. And that they are entitled to the same atitudes and social perceptions as men are.

This includes the right to act young, act foolishly and let their hormones dictate their actions - formerly the province of teen males only.

I've seen this paradigm shift myself many times while tending bar over the years.

Young women now have the same attitudes that young men have always had: they want to party, live, have fun and engage in wild sex while they can - just like young men have always done.

It is the same as their older female counterparts in the work force have done - adapted and adopted the same social mores as their male counterparts.

You've got to take the good with the bad.

Yeshanu
03-02-2006, 06:44 PM
Like rhymegirl, I haven't thoroughly read through the posts above, but I'll chime in my two cents.

First, my qualifications:

I've raised one girl from birth to age seventeen, and two boys, one fifteen and one twenty. At this point in time, I'm also trustee to a sixteen-year-old girl on welfare, who's living with me because she has no where else to go. I've been a church youth leader, and I've been an officer for a few summers at cadet camps in Canada, where they cram between four hundred and a thousand youth together in sub-par conditions for six weeks. I've sat with a kid through a police investigation into an alleged sexual assault. I've talked to parents whose teens are acting out. I've talked to teens about everything from sex and dating to careers. So I have a bit of experience in this area.

First, I'd like to echo DamaNegra's request to remove the blog entry, first and foremost. Asking for advice in a forum like this is a whole different kettle of fish than a blog entry, IMO. I agree that if they came across it, they'd feel upset and humiliated.

Second, you need to ask yourself why you are getting involved in this. If you're only getting involved because somebody asked you to, then say, "Thanks for asking, but I won't talk to them." Leave "the talk" to someone who does care, and is perhaps more skilled.

If, however, you can really find inside yourself concern and love for these two women, and if your relationship to them is such that you think you might be able to reach them, then phone up the eldest, and try something like the following:

"Hi [name]. How are you?"

Blah, blah, blah...

"I'm calling because I saw this picture of you posted on your myspace blog, and I'm concerned."

If the woman tells you to butt out, then do so. She's not going to listen.

Depending on how the conversation goes, you might simply point out that 1) you care about her, and you're avaliable to listen, and 2) you're concerned because she's already been in an abusive relationship, and you don't want to see her get hurt again.

Use of questions often gets me a better response than a lecture. One girl came to me about a boy she was interested in. He was interested in her, but he was already dating another girl. She wanted to know how she could win him away from this other girl.

I simply asked her, "You know that he's playing around with you while he's dating this other girl, right? How do you think he'll treat you when you're the one he's dating?"

She said, "Oh." And that was the end of that conversation.

I need to speak up here about the people who said, "This kind of playing around is 'normal,' and nothing to worry about."

[lecture mode on]

Lack of self-respect at any age is something to worry about. Sex and relationships aren't something to be taken lightly, and letting a guy you barely know put his hand on your breast is going too far.

The argument that goes, "I did it when I was younger, and I turned out okay," doesn't fly with me. I can talk all day and night about women who did stuff like that when they were younger, and didn't turn out okay, but I'll just tell you about my sister, whose lack of self-esteem culminated in suicide thirteen years ago this month.

Some women do grow out of lack of self-esteem. Some don't and end up living lives of horror, or even dying.

Promiscuity without committment is as damaging to health and self-esteem as excessive drinking or doing drugs is.

As for the double standard, in my house there is none. If my son put his hand on the breast of a woman he barely knew, I'd boot him into next week...

(Please note here that I'm not talking about committed or even semi-committed relationships between two teens who have known one another for a while, but of 'one-night stands' and their ilk.)

[lecture mode off]

Fern
03-02-2006, 07:41 PM
Leave "the talk" to someone who does care, and is perhaps more skilled.

If, however, you can really find inside yourself concern and love for these two women, and if your relationship to them is such that you think you might be able to reach them, then phone up the eldest, and try . . .

I certainly agree with most of your post, but I feel compelled to say I think folks are being a little rough on Blue Texas regarding her intentions. I think she does "care" or she would not be asking for advice on the matter to begin with; its just that how she is going about it is all wrong.

Lack of self-respect at any age is something to worry about. Sex and relationships aren't something to be taken lightly, and letting a guy you barely know put his hand on your breast is going too far.

Promiscuity without committment is as damaging to health and self-esteem as excessive drinking or doing drugs is.

As for the double standard, in my house there is none. If my son put his hand on the breast of a woman he barely knew, I'd boot him into next week...
Ditto to that!

(Please note here that I'm not talking about committed or even semi-committed relationships between two teens who have known one another for a while, but of 'one-night stands' and their ilk.)

I would take this one step further and say it doesn't matter even if they are MARRIED, people should show enough respect and manners to themselves and others present to not be "pawing" each other in front of other people.

Does no one talk to their kids anymore? What is it with this "anything goes" attitude society seems to have anymore?

Jcomp
03-02-2006, 07:50 PM
Does no one talk to their kids anymore?

Nope.

Okay, that's a generalization, and I don't think it's anyone's "fault," per se, but with most households requiring both parents to work to keep the income up, the communication with the kids is bound to suffer compared to "how things used to be." My dad was absent for most of my "growing up" because the Air Force had him in Turkey and Alaska while me & moms were in Mississippi (Moms being in the Air Force too, working many a late night herself). Not his fault, no grudge at all from me, and I turned out mighty fine if I say so myself:) , but there's definitely things I learned late that I probably would've picked up sooner had he been able to be around. It's just the change in society as a whole.

rhymegirl
03-02-2006, 07:59 PM
Does no one talk to their kids anymore? What is it with this "anything goes" attitude society seems to have anymore?

As I mentioned above, yes, I talk to mine. We can't be making generalizations around here. Some parents are so busy and so self-absorbed they don't take the time to talk to their kids. But others take their parenting responsibilities very seriously.

dahmnait
03-02-2006, 08:19 PM
To Yeshanu
<snipped>...I feel compelled to say I think folks are being a little rough on Blue Texas regarding her intentions. I think she does "care" or she would not be asking for advice on the matter to begin with; its just that how she is going about it is all wrong.I admit that I was intentionally harsh in my first paragraph to Blue Texas. After I wrote it, I thought about toning it down, but I decided that the point was worth making. I also admit that something about this whole thread has struck me on a personal level. So, I may have come across more harshly than intended. Speaking from experience, a person can really make a situation like this worse if it is approached the wrong way, and I would really hate to see Blue Texas make that mistake.

However, when I said, "If you truly care..." I was not implying that she doesn't care about these girls. I was playing it safe as she needs to examine her own motivation before talking to them. If it comes from anywhere else, except a personal concern, it will do more harm than good. If it does come from a personal concern, then eventually it may do some good. From what I have read on the other posts, I am not the only one taking that route. I don't read all of them as questioning Blue Texas's motivations, but rather leading her to verify them to herself. I can see how it can be taken the other way though. Even from people who write all the time, the written word can be a tricky beast.

Blue Texas, I apologize for talking about you in third person. I don't know how else to respond here.

PattiTheWicked
03-02-2006, 09:27 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why "likes to have fun and probably has sex" equals "has no self respect".

There are actually multiple problems here. First of all, these girls are adults. It's really not anyone's business if they decided to engage in sexual activity or post pictures on their myspace account. Now, if they're doing something DANGEROUS, such as not using birth control or protection from STDs, then sure, someone might want to mention it. I'm still not sure why that falls on a cousin rather than the parents, but maybe I'm missing something.

Secondly, I have an issue with the assumption that just because these young women are out partying all night then they must OBVIOUSLY be banging every guy they see. First of all, there's no real proof -- more importantly, even if they choose to, that's THEIR business. This attitude that having sex is shameful basically perpetuates the old line about "good girls don't." Isn't it possible that they're just two self-confident and happy women who are enjoying youth while they have it? The fact that one LEFT an abusive boyfriend does rather indicate that she's not allowing herself to be mistreated.

Bad taste and poor judgement do not always mean low self-esteem.

Fern
03-02-2006, 09:52 PM
No one with any self respect is going to tolerate being fondled in a group setting and no guy who has any respect for the girl he is with is going to do such a thing.

brokenfingers
03-02-2006, 09:55 PM
Hmmm, so how do you explain all those poor respectless losers at Spring Break ( and Mardi Gras etc) who flash their boobs at everybody, get up on stage and take their clothes off, dance on bars, get drunk, groped and have spurious sex?

robeiae
03-02-2006, 09:57 PM
They're poor, respectless losers...God bless 'em!

Rob :)

Fern
03-02-2006, 09:58 PM
Hmmm, so how do you explain all those poor respectless losers at Spring Break ( and Mardi Gras etc) who flash their boobs at everybody, get up on stage and take their clothes off, dance on bars, get drunk, groped and have spurious sex?

Explained in above post.

tiny
03-02-2006, 10:01 PM
Morals are a choice. Mine are not the same as the next person. It has nothing to do with self respect. If I'm twenty one, or eighteen for that matter, I can take any man home I choose. It's none of anyone else's business who I'm doing.

roach
03-02-2006, 10:01 PM
Does no one talk to their kids anymore? What is it with this "anything goes" attitude society seems to have anymore?

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to cry bad parenting. It seems that every single thread I read that has anything to do with children or parenting eventually brings up this idea. As if kids are any worse these days than they were in the past. As if it must be the parents fault if kids turn out to be bad apples. And of course the definition of "bad apples" most often is "they're doing something I don't approve of."

Hey people, you can have the most caring and attentive parents in the world and still turn out to be a dumb@ss. That's the first part of the "nature vs. nurture" point. The idea that if only parents these days would raise kids the way I raised my kids then the world would be a better place is ridiculous.

*This rant brought to you by a new parent. The worst thing about parenting? Not the lack of sleep, not the dirty diapers or the feeling of crushing inadequacy when faced with a crying infant, but dealing with every other person on the earth who feels they have a right to tell you how to raise your child.

PattiTheWicked
03-02-2006, 10:06 PM
No one with any self respect is going to tolerate being fondled in a group setting and no guy who has any respect for the girl he is with is going to do such a thing.

I suppose it depends on your interpretation of respect. To me, self respect is someone who is confident, independent, and willing to take responsibilities for their own choices, whether their choices are good or bad.

You see these girls as wanton hussies with no self esteem, but maybe they're just comfortable with their own sexuality. Perhaps they don't define their self respect by the status of their virginity or lack thereof.

tiny
03-02-2006, 10:06 PM
(last time I checked 19 and 21 were not children)

I feel you Roach. Not a day goes by that I haven't thought for at least a second I screwed up when it comes to my boys. Damn things should come with a manual.

Fern
03-03-2006, 12:27 AM
BlueTexas, if you are still looking for an approach in talking with the girls, you might find it by passing along the "danger" info about their sites. . . check out the Interview Request forum on Writers Weekly. . .they give this link for info about the site where the girls have their websites if I'm not mistaken.

http://keyetv.com/local/local_story_046214722.html

trumancoyote
03-03-2006, 01:04 AM
No one with any self respect is going to tolerate being fondled in a group setting and no guy who has any respect for the girl he is with is going to do such a thing.

One of my fondest memories from early college was getting naked with a bunch of my friends and playing chicken in the pool. And yes, we were drunk.

And we all respect ourselves very much.

And there was much groping; and much fun was had.

PattiTheWicked
03-03-2006, 02:04 AM
I knew you seemed familiar.

trumancoyote
03-03-2006, 02:15 AM
I honked you good, I did. You selfesteemless harlot.

PattiTheWicked
03-03-2006, 02:20 AM
I must have left my self respect in the pool :)

Jcomp
03-03-2006, 02:40 AM
One of my fondest memories from early college was getting naked with a bunch of my friends and playing chicken in the pool. And yes, we were drunk.

And we all respect ourselves very much.

And there was much groping; and much fun was had.

And I was not invited...

:rant:

trumancoyote
03-03-2006, 02:48 AM
You don't wanna see me naked.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
03-03-2006, 02:57 AM
If there's one thing I can try and show them that might be helpful, it's that they need to have their own goals in life, and not expect some man to pave their way. And that's what I need advice about, for you guys who can't see the blog entry.

Speaking from the POV of one who has a niece worse than these two put together, I don't believe you're going to get anywhere with these women. They're past the point of influence with attitudes like theirs. If they're lucky, they'll grow up on their own - if whoever's still feeding them through the umbilical cord will cut it, it might happen faster.

Not very helpful, I know. You're not the one with the umbilical cord connected to these two. Hand the task right back to the person/people who need to clean up their own messes... if you get involved, you'll end up as the monster.