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View Full Version : Kids, we now have to call Mr. McBeth Ms. McBeth



mdin
03-01-2006, 12:17 AM
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11602457/



EAGLESWOOD TOWNSHIP, N.J. - A New Jersey school board will allow Lily McBeth to return to the school where she taught for five years as a man.To students at Eagleswood Elementary School, she used to be Mr. McBeth. The retired sales executive was married for 33 years and had three children before having sex-change surgery last year. She re-applied for her job as a substitute teacher under her new name.




So, whaddya think? The poll on MSNBC is currently 50-something % approve and 38% disapprove.

I think it's awesome.

Jaycinth
03-01-2006, 12:21 AM
It's the person inside that counts, right? If 'he' had been in a disfiguring accident aand had to have prosthetic legs and arms and complete facial reconstructive surgery, you'd still have the same trained teacher inside, right? I mean there would have been no reapplying for the job in that situation, right?

I don't understand the fuss, and I, too, think it is awesome.

William Haskins
03-01-2006, 12:22 AM
What bloody man is that? - Macbeth, 1. 2

Jcomp
03-01-2006, 12:22 AM
No big deal to me either way. Although I a lot of kids when I was in school who, if dealing with a male teacher coming back as a female (a substitute at that), would've let her-him have it.

Duncan J Macdonald
03-01-2006, 12:43 AM
Is he still married? If not, then it would be Miss, not Ms.

William Haskins
03-01-2006, 12:45 AM
Usage Note: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.

robeiae
03-01-2006, 12:46 AM
I don't care. But if word filters down to the student body, she will. If it was high school, she'd leave every day in tears.

Rob :)

Aconite
03-01-2006, 12:51 AM
I would just like to point out that "A New Jersey school board will allow Lily McBeth to return to the school where she taught for five years as a man" is not the clearest sentence construction in terms of whether the individual is returning as a man or taught as a man.

I'm just sayin'.

mdin
03-01-2006, 12:56 AM
I don't care. But if word filters down to the student body, she will. If it was high school, she'd leave every day in tears.

Rob :)

Jr. High would be much, much worse.

mdin
03-01-2006, 12:57 AM
I would just like to point out that "A New Jersey school board will allow Lily McBeth to return to the school where she taught for five years as a man" is not the clearest sentence construction in terms of whether the individual is returning as a man or taught as a man.

I'm just sayin'.

She did teach as a man, at least according to all the other news coverage this is getting.

Peggy
03-01-2006, 12:57 AM
The retired sales executive was married for 33 years and had three children before having sex-change surgery last year. For some reason I read "had three children" as "gave birth to three children", which is rather confusing in the context of the sex change. Shouldn't it be "has three children who were born before the sex-change surgery"?

Aconite
03-01-2006, 01:01 AM
For some reason I read "had three children" as "gave birth to three children", which is rather confusing in the context of the sex change. Shouldn't it be "has three children who were born before the sex-change surgery"? I think we can all agree this is not a well written article. Harumph.

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 01:04 AM
I'd ask 'er to show me the scars.

robeiae
03-01-2006, 01:09 AM
Usage Note: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.Just viscious. I'm glad this thread is on TIO...

Rob :)

William Haskins
03-01-2006, 01:14 AM
and yet, this is me actually trying to behave.

David McAfee
03-01-2006, 01:14 AM
It wouldn't bother me at all. Who cares what gender a teacher is, as long as they can teach. I think some of the other people are correct in pointing out that she will catch hell from the student body, though.

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 01:20 AM
I don't think she will, necessarily. For one, it depends on how long it's been since she taught there -- it may be the case that none of the students have even taken her class before.

And even if they have, it's not as if students can up and say **** to a teacher's face. That wouldn't fly w/ anyone -- transsexual or not. And if they talk behind her back... well, kids'll do that anyway.

I think she'll be fine. Kids may even like her more for it.

Who knows?

MadScientistMatt
03-01-2006, 01:34 AM
I don't care. But if word filters down to the student body, she will. If it was high school, she'd leave every day in tears.

Rob :)

The way I see it, it's up to parents to decide what sexual morals they will try to teach their children. If she can teach, I don't think the school board has any real reason to turn down her application just because she's a transexual. It's a much less alarming sexual decision than, say, a straight male teacher whose sexual preference is best described as "underage."

Students are quite capable of making their own judgements about their teachers' sexuality. There are already enough rumors circulating in any juniour high or high school about which teachers are cheating on their spouses, which teachers may or may not be pedophiles, which teachers are seeing hookers, and which teachers are gay. Having students know that one of their teachers had a sex change isn't that big an addition to the school rumor mill.

Aconite
03-01-2006, 01:39 AM
The way I see it, it's up to parents to decide what sexual morals they will try to teach their children. Matt, until you said that, it never occurred to me that anyone could see a sex-change operation as a sexual act. I'd always thought of it as having to do with identity, not sex.

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 01:40 AM
Matt, until you said that, it never occurred to me that anyone could see a sex-change operation as a sexual act. I'd always thought of it as having to do with identity, not sex.

You're right. With the possible exception of Buffalo Bill.

Jcomp
03-01-2006, 01:40 AM
And even if they have, it's not as if students can up and say **** to a teacher's face. That wouldn't fly w/ anyone -- transsexual or not.



Sure they can. They shouldn't, but they can and do. If it was junior high or high school, at least one knucklehead would pop off on her. And in elementary, depending on the age, it's more likely a kid might say "My dad says you're a freak, and you're the reason God wants to destroy America," or some such craziness. Little kids are the worst, they talk and half the time don't even realize they're saying something that isn't "tactful."

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 01:48 AM
And any teacher would have something said to them: fat, short, hairy, ugly -- I'm sure kids have said it all. It's a good opportunity to teach them something about not being little twerps.

As for junior high and high school... yeah, it might happen. But when that kid's kicked outta' class, or suspended, and possibly the next kid too, I think they might start getting the hint and realize that they can't say whatever the **** they want -- especially to someone in a position of authority.

Jcomp
03-01-2006, 01:59 AM
And any teacher would have something said to them: fat, short, hairy, ugly -- I'm sure kids have said it all. It's a good opportunity to teach them something about not being little twerps.

As for junior high and high school... yeah, it might happen. But when that kid's kicked outta' class, or suspended, and possibly the next kid too, I think they might start getting the hint and realize that they can't say whatever the **** they want -- especially to someone in a position of authority.

Man, I dunno. Maybe you've been out of school a while or I'm just in a bad part of the country, but I've never seen it just go down like that. The kids that are disciplined are just naturally disciplined. The kids that wild out aren't going to stop just because some teacher tried to scold them. Getting kicked out of class isn't much threat, and you usually don't get suspended for mouthing off unless you've done it to absurd levels on several occassions. Otherwise you just get Saturday detentions and whatnot. Teachers are not as protected as you think by that "position of authority" thang. That's why they complain about not getting paid enough.

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 02:02 AM
I dunno. I might just be an idealist when it comes to this kinda stuff. In this case, I would think that a kid saying something derogatory (specifically, about his transsexualism) to this teacher would be along the same lines of calling a black teacher a ******. And I don't know where that would fly.

Jcomp
03-01-2006, 02:08 AM
I dunno. I might just be an idealist when it comes to this kinda stuff. In this case, I would think that a kid saying something derogatory (specifically, about his transsexualism) to this teacher would be along the same lines of calling a black teacher a ******. And I don't know where that would fly.

Doubt that would be the same at all. I see the idealism, but think about it. A black teacher coming to a school isn't a newsworthy item. It wouldn't even be a topic on a message board. But a transsexual teacher coming to school post gender-change operation? Well, here we are discussing the news article...

trumancoyote
03-01-2006, 02:11 AM
Well, it is sad that it's newsworthy. Shouldn't even be a question as to whether or not she's allowed back at school to teach.

It's not like she shot a 78 year-old man in the face, or nothin'.

sellthepharm
03-04-2006, 02:54 AM
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11602457/





So, whaddya think? The poll on MSNBC is currently 50-something % approve and 38% disapprove.

I think it's awesome.

I think she looks like Dick Cheney in drag. Startling resemblance.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/02/28/teacher.sex.change.ap/?section=cnn_education

trumancoyote
03-04-2006, 03:00 AM
Holy crap. You're right.

Not bad for a 70 year-old, though.

aghast
03-04-2006, 03:05 AM
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11602457/





So, whaddya think? The poll on MSNBC is currently 50-something % approve and 38% disapprove.

I think it's awesome.

Its sad when we (the 38%) would consider a transgender person not a real person or something and that they shouldnt teach... she is the same person whether she has a penis or not and people should just get over themselves

Christine N.
03-04-2006, 03:47 AM
I see multiple showings of "Transamerica" in this school's future, if for nothing else than to put it into perspective. I adore Felicity Huffman!

It's been five years... just long enough for the kids who were freshmen when she left to have graduated last year. If the news article hadn't ever run, nobody would even notice.

I also think it's awesome.

madderblue
03-05-2006, 01:08 PM
The difference between elementary students and college ones? I just recently discovered that my poli sci professor underwent a sex change. But it seems there wasn't too much of a stink about it.

http://www.oasismag.com/node/view/14283

I like the punch line at the end of the article.
The real question here is since gay marriage is banned in Nebraska, and both Dr. Bacon and his wife are female, can they stay married after 37 years?

Carole
03-05-2006, 05:26 PM
Since it is an elementary school we're talking about, I'd probably move my kids - and not for reasons some might think. Middle school, maybe. High school, probably not.

IMO, elementary school age kids should still be under their parents' authority as to when and where any non-standard sex-ed is concerned and even though they wouldn't be taught about it formally, they would be taught. There would be some kids who understood the idea of a sex change and some who didn't. I don't think elementary school age kids should be forced to grasp a situation that their little minds might not be ready for. And surely, if some kids "got it", they'd be talking to all the other kids about it. It's a complex and controversial enough topic for adults to understand. I don't think it would be fair to put that on elementary school age kids.

I am not saying that this teacher should be unemployable. I do think that the kids should be considered first since everyone at that school should be there for the kids in the first place.

There is also a morality issue here, and not just a question of when I thought my kids would be able to grasp this situation without it distacting them from their schooling. My morals might be totally different than anyone elses and the same goes for every other parent in that school. If their religious beliefs are strongly against sex changes, then I see nothing wrong with those parents taking their kids out of that school. It's their right to keep their children from being exposed to something they find morally wrong just as much as it is another parents right to keep their kids there if they see nothing wrong with it.

fallenangelwriter
03-05-2006, 10:16 PM
What evidence do you have that the notion of a transgendered teacher is harmful to children's psyches?


I'm not being facetious here. nor am i demanding rigorous scientific evidence or documentation. an anecdote would do. do you personally know of anyone who ever been harmed by knowledge of/interaction with a transgendered, cross-dressing, homosexual or otherwise gender-defying individual?


Children may not iunderstand everyhting at first, but it's exposure to the world that makes them learn and grow. When I was elemtnary school age my lesbian aunt came to visit. I had a hard time wrapping ym brain around the concept. my mother says i found ti somewhat upsetting at first.

so what? i didn't suffer permanenet psychic harm, it didn't leave me with warped notions of gender roles, it didn't mean i didn't like the aunt (once i actually met her, i forgot all about the whole issue.)

and besides, children don't understand lots of things. when we had a vegeatarian friend of my dad's over, i had just as much trouble understanding why someone wouldn't eat meat as i did why a woman would marry another woman.

Carole
03-06-2006, 01:10 AM
It may or may not be harmful. Who knows? I don't think I would have appreciated my boys having to grasp the idea of a sex change operation before they had even had the first basic sex ed class. That's just me, and in fact I clearly said IMO=in my opinion. I imagine I have the right to my own opinion regarding myself and my children just as much as anyone else, correct? Even when it is not the same as someone else?

badducky
03-06-2006, 01:17 AM
There's no reason not to let him/her in.

Why not?

Gay students need their role models, too.

And, frankly, the fear and loathing that many young homosexuals deal with in their confusing, depressing, angry youths could use someone putting the issues in the face of those horrible jocks.

writerterri
03-06-2006, 01:39 AM
That would be way too strange for me, but I'd live with it cause it's none of my business, and I'd probably relocate my kid to another school if they couldn't deal with it.

Life is made up of all sorts and this guy's decision is between him and God.

Terri

fallenangelwriter
03-06-2006, 02:16 AM
It may or may not be harmful. Who knows? I don't think I would have appreciated my boys having to grasp the idea of a sex change operation before they had even had the first basic sex ed class. That's just me, and in fact I clearly said IMO=in my opinion. I imagine I have the right to my own opinion regarding myself and my children just as much as anyone else, correct? Even when it is not the same as someone else?

I was really, really, trying not to sound accusatory. rereading my post, i realize once again how hard it is to make words in print come out the way they sound in your head.

of course you have the right to your opinion. and as I said, i 'm not demanding a rigoorous scientific defense.

it's jsut this: i've read in various places arguments that exposure to homosexual/transsexual/bisexual/cross-dressing/whatevers will harm children's minds somehow. i've never actually spoken with someone who voiced that opinion before. so, since you stated that you'd be concerne dfor your children, i just wanted ot ask why. it's not intuitive to me; i've ismply never understood why so many people assume it will be harmful. so, if you wouldn't mind, i'd appreciate an explanation of why you feel that it would be ba dofr your children

Carole
03-06-2006, 03:03 AM
I was really, really, trying not to sound accusatory.
Of what?

as I said, i 'm not demanding a rigoorous scientific defense.
prolly a good thing. I don't work well with demands. ~laughing~



I don't know if it would be necessarily harmful, I just don't think I would have wanted them to have to, at such young ages, to have to wonder about the whys and hows of someone having a sex change operation. I have had gay friends forever. That's not what I am talking about, so let's make that clear. My boys have been around all sorts of people their whole lives, but not someone who had surgery to change their gender. I think it is wrong for adults to assume that all children have mature enough minds to process what some ADULTS would have difficulty processing.

The only person I have known who was supposedly going to have a sex change operation wasn't a person I would have ever had my kids in contact with anyway. She, who wanted to be a he, was just a strange individual from the get go, without the sex change even being an issue. To hear her tell it, she supposedly fell in love with me the first time we met and yada yada...told me she was going to "rescue" me from my sad little heterosexual life with hubby (then, boyfriend) but that it would all be ok because she was going to be a he. But no. I am not basing my opinion of every person who would want a sex change operation on her. She is the only person I have known in that situation.

Christine N.
03-06-2006, 06:13 AM
Yeah, like I said, if the media didn't bother printing an article, the kids probably would NEVER know. I've met a transgendered person - our own Diana Hignutt. She is a sweet and wonderful person, and if I didn't already know that about her, I never in a million years would have guessed. How would the kids know if someone didn't tell them? I don't think the teacher herself would be running up and down the halls yelling it, and I don't think the other teachers would feel it was their place (at least, I hope not).

And if my child did find out, I would explain it to them in plain, simple, terms. Children are NOT stupid, nor are they incapable of complex thought. My son is three, he already knows the difference between boy parts and girl parts. He hasn't really asked why, but I will explain it to him.

Celia Cyanide
03-06-2006, 11:25 AM
I don't know if it would be necessarily harmful, I just don't think I would have wanted them to have to, at such young ages, to have to wonder about the whys and hows of someone having a sex change operation.

But wouldn't children have to be very VERY young to not know the difference between boys and girls? You said, "before a basic sex ed class," but I think children understand what girls and boys "have" way before that, and that's really what a sex change operation is about. Kids may not understand how the operation works, but they probably don't understand how organ transplants work, either.

Diana Hignutt
04-01-2006, 06:11 PM
Okay, I was spending too much time here goofing around today and I discovered this thread...

I am a post-operative transsexual woman. And I thought since some of you seem to have only negative ideas or experiences about transsexuals (though most of you have a delightfully enlightened outlook) I would be willing to answer any questions you have on this issue.

Of course, it is constitutionally mandated that the teacher cannot and should not be dismissed. If a person is capable of doing a job before undergoing gender reassignment, they are capable of doing it after.

Someone, and forgive for not going back and checking, asked about the issue of same-sex marriage regarding this case. I am currently in a legal same-sex marriage. Marriage is a legal event. Meaning that at the time of the wedding if the people involved were of opposite sexes, then the marriage is still legal. To do otherwise would be to punish the spouse of the transgendered person. How can the government take away their rights to their marriage, when they have done nothing except fulfill their wedding vows of sticking to their partner for better or worse, for sickness or in health, etc... for more on this issue...

http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=6040

Like I said, I'll check back for questions, if anyone has any...

BTW, thanks for the kind words, Christine...

Forbidden Snowflake
04-01-2006, 06:14 PM
I think it's awesome! One should support that! A person should always be true to her/himself.

@Diana: Do I get it right that you're a woman, in a relationship with a woman and before were a man? But always attracted to women? Just to make sure I didn't mess facts up.

Diana Hignutt
04-02-2006, 04:34 AM
I think it's awesome! One should support that! A person should always be true to her/himself.

@Diana: Do I get it right that you're a woman, in a relationship with a woman and before were a man? But always attracted to women? Just to make sure I didn't mess facts up.

Yeah, you got it.

Optimus
04-02-2006, 05:03 AM
I dunno. I might just be an idealist when it comes to this kinda stuff. In this case, I would think that a kid saying something derogatory (specifically, about his transsexualism) to this teacher would be along the same lines of calling a black teacher a ******. And I don't know where that would fly.

Actually, considering that transgenderism is listed as a mental/sexual disorder in the DSM-IV-TR, it'd be more like calling a schizophrenic a "crazy wacko."

Of course, whether or not it should be considered a disorder is a matter of zeitgeist and personal opinion.

But, I was just...you know...trying to be technical. ;)

Diana Hignutt
04-04-2006, 06:11 PM
Actually, considering that transgenderism is listed as a mental/sexual disorder in the DSM-IV-TR, it'd be more like calling a schizophrenic a "crazy wacko."

Of course, whether or not it should be considered a disorder is a matter of zeitgeist and personal opinion.

But, I was just...you know...trying to be technical. ;)

I don't think you'll find transgenderism listed in the DSM, there they call it Gender Identity Dysphoria. Just to be accurate.

Also, going back a little... I go by Ms. Hignutt. My wife is Mrs. Hignutt. She earned that title.

Godfather
04-04-2006, 08:58 PM
depends whether he was a good teacher,

if he was a good teacher,
then yes absolutely she should be let back in

fallenangelwriter
04-04-2006, 09:51 PM
IMO, elementary school age kids should still be under their parents' authority as to when and where any non-standard sex-ed is concerned and even though they wouldn't be taught about it formally, they would be taught.
I am not saying that this teacher should be unemployable. I do think that the kids should be considered first since everyone at that school should be there for the kids in the first place.


Okay: I think this is based on a fundamental i,suse of the word "education." edcuation, at least, in the public school sens,e is the organized dissemination of information. what the school deliberately teaches children is its curriculum, and that's what trhe school is answerable for.

If your children happen to run intoa transgendered person on the street, or in a store, or behind the teacher's desk--that's NOT "sex ed." it's simply learning through experience. and trying too hard to control a child's experience, is, IMO, very dangerous.

the school wouldn't be TEACHING anything, so it's not a sex-ed issue. what you're saying is that you'll hold the schoolr esponsible for everything your child sees or experiecnes while on school grounds, and that's unrealistic.

furthermore, I think there are limits to parental authority. what if the parents doesn't want their precious little children disturbed by having to comprehend the issue of race? what do we, fire all the black teachers? after all, they should be there for the kids. it's not that you're racist, you protest, you just odn't want your children to have to deal with racial tension and other attendant issues...

or how about profanity? lots of parents want to control what their children hear. to some extent, that's a good thing, but every child hears everything eventually. preventing that is, to my mind, not only impossible but misguided. learning to deal with teh ugly and the complicate daspects of life is part of growing up.

fallenangelwriter
04-04-2006, 09:56 PM
It may or may not be harmful. Who knows? I don't think I would have appreciated my boys having to grasp the idea of a sex change operation before they had even had the first basic sex ed class. That's just me, and in fact I clearly said IMO=in my opinion. I imagine I have the right to my own opinion regarding myself and my children just as much as anyone else, correct? Even when it is not the same as someone else?

Sex ed classes exist to standardize information; to make sure evryone knows what they need to know, to try to encourage safe behaviors, and fill in gaps in kids' information they might otherwise be too embarassed to ask about.

NO ONE (to the best of my knowledge) goes into their first sex ed class completely ignorant of what sex is. children, according to their curiosity and what they're exposed to, acquire sexual infromation in bits and pieces form a veriety fo sources, sometimes known to their parents, sometimes not.

protecting your child from all sexual information until their first sex ed class is unrealistic and (IMHO) unnecessary.

(some of my teenage friends have reported being asked about sex by children they babysat for. some children overhear conversations by older people. some actively seek out the infromation. me? i was an avid fantasy and sci-fi reader form a very young age, and read widely from ym father's bookshelves and the adult sections of the library. I encountered plenty of fairly explicit sexual content from the age of nine and up)

Optimus
04-05-2006, 12:34 AM
I don't think you'll find transgenderism listed in the DSM, there they call it Gender Identity Dysphoria. Just to be accurate.

Also, going back a little... I go by Ms. Hignutt. My wife is Mrs. Hignutt. She earned that title.

Actually, there's no such label as "Gender Identity Dysphoria" in the DSM, either.

Transgenderism is sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria" (that is, a state of feeling unwell or unhappy with one's gender), but there is no such label as "Gender Identity Dysphoria" for a disorder.

It's simply called "Gender Identity Disorder."

Page 576. Just to be accurate. ;)