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WriteRex
12-23-2013, 06:31 PM
I don't want to get this wrong, but I have a vague sense that the person will ask the saint, who specializes in whatever area and thus can sympathize with the person, for something, and the saint will intercede the message to God in that person's time of need. Is there a saint for every type of event? Do saints work like the gods and goddesses of the ancient world, each saint serving as a medium of a particular area of interest? How does the community's patron saint get involved in this? Should a tribe or community pray to the patron saint or any type of saint?

citymouse
12-23-2013, 06:56 PM
First, you should define your terms. Since in one phrase you suggest that saints may equate with gods and goddesses. In the Christian sense this is definitely not the case.
In the Christian system saints are defined as those of God's creatures who, through special grace, behold the God-head face to face. This is a very big deal. Some are departed souls and others are angels. The departed souls have the restored preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve had before the fall. It is in this light of understanding that some Christians pray for a saint to intercede with God for them. This is an ancient tradition. You use the word medium. This is not applicable because the word hints at non-Christian philosophies, fortunetelling. Of course I'm speaking from a RCC tradition.

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 07:02 PM
First, you should define your terms. Since in one phrase you suggest that saints may equate with gods and goddesses. In the Christian sense this is definitely not the case.
In the Christian system saints are defined as those of God's creatures who, through special grace, behold the God-head face to face. This is a very big deal. Some are departed souls and others are angels. The departed souls have the restored preternatural gifts that Adam and Eve had before the fall. It is in this light of understanding that some Christians pray for a saint to intercede with God for them. This is an ancient tradition. You use the word medium. This is not applicable because the word hints at non-Christian philosophies, fortunetelling. Of course I'm speaking from a RCC tradition.

OK. Thank you so much.

Now, can you explain the process in detail or attach references to your explanation?

citymouse
12-23-2013, 07:22 PM
OK. Thank you so much.

Now, can you explain the process in detail or attach references to your explanation?

The process is very straight forward. Let's say you or someone you know is diagnosed with a fatal illness. Saint Jude is the patron saint of lost causes. You would pray to Saint Jude for a cure. This may be in the form of personal prayer or a novena here is a link that may be helpful http://www.stjude.org/stjude/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da522f4277e70110VgnVCM1000001e 0215acRCRD&vgnextchannel=f9a0c268099f4110VgnVCM1000001e0215ac RCRD&SearchUrl=search_results.jsp&QueryText=novena
Need a second chance? Saint Dismas is your go-to man. Saint Dismas who was crucified along side Jesus, is also known as the Good Thief. He is the patron saint of thieves. He's my favorite saint. He remained a thief to the end. From his felons cross, the stole the heart of Christ.
There's lots more. Just Google RCC saints, and be prepared for saintly overload!

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 07:28 PM
The process is very straight forward. Let's say you or someone you know is diagnosed with a fatal illness. Saint Jude is the patron saint of lost causes. You would pray to Saint Jude for a cure. This may be in the form of personal prayer or a novena here is a link that may be helpful http://www.stjude.org/stjude/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da522f4277e70110VgnVCM1000001e 0215acRCRD&vgnextchannel=f9a0c268099f4110VgnVCM1000001e0215ac RCRD&SearchUrl=search_results.jsp&QueryText=novena
Need a second chance? Saint Dismas is your go-to man. Saint Dismas who was crucified along side Jesus, is also known as the Good Thief. He is the patron saint of thieves. He's my favorite saint. He remained a thief to the end. From his felons cross, the stole the heart of Christ.
There's lots more. Just Google RCC saints, and be prepared for saintly overload!

So... does a community's patron saint play a role in it at all? How does the patron saint of a community/village/town/district fit in this? Under what circumstances might a person pray to a patron saint? If a person moves from one community to another, then would that person have to change patron saints too?

How would a Roman Catholic person interact with an Eastern Orthodox person, especially when they pray to different saints? Would one be expected to conform to the religion of another when that person moves to a new location?

Chris P
12-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Citymouse described it pretty much how I understand it. In the simplest sense, there is no difference between asking a departed person to pray for you and asking your very much living brother or friend to pray for you. People don't pray to saints, they ask the saints to pray for them. You don't need to ask a specific saint for one thing and another for others, but many people believe certain saints have "specialties," for lack of a better word. The person being prayed to (other than God) has no special powers, but is believed to be able to intercede in a way that might (or might not) result in the prayer being answered in the way the prayer wishes.

There is also no shortage of recognized saints. There are also likely saints that we don't know about because we don't know enough about their lives to know about them.

Chris P
12-23-2013, 07:44 PM
So... does a community's patron saint play a role in it at all? How does the patron saint of a community/village/town/district fit in this? Under what circumstances might a person pray to a patron saint? If a person moves from one community to another, then would that person have to change patron saints too?

How would a Roman Catholic person interact with an Eastern Orthodox person, especially when they pray to different saints? Would one be expected to conform to the religion of another when that person moves to a new location?

As to your first part, people in a community might ask that the saint to pray that God guides the community in its decisions, harvests, safety, etc. The patron saint of a village isn't the patron saint of everyone in that village, so the issue of moving and changing saints is moot. I don't know enough about Eastern Orthodoxy to say how they would view a Roman rite's prayers, but I suspect there wouldn't be much conflict about that.

As far as personal patron saints, when I was confirmed I choose St. Christopher as my saint name, since that's also my real name. However, I now look to St. Albert the Great for inspiration since he was a scientist who didn't see any conflict between faith and science, and whose pupil (Thomas Aquinas) surpassed him, just as any teacher should hope. In other issues I look to the lives of other saints who've overcome certain obstacles that I might be facing. Having a personal patron saint is really a pretty informal thing, and I don't think many people choose one and one only.

citymouse
12-23-2013, 07:51 PM
So... does a community's patron saint play a role in it at all? How does the patron saint of a community/village/town/district fit in this? Under what circumstances might a person pray to a patron saint? If a person moves from one community to another, then would that person have to change patron saints too?

How would a Roman Catholic person interact with an Eastern Orthodox person, especially when they pray to different saints? Would one be expected to conform to the religion of another when that person moves to a new location?

I already described two reasons for asking for saintly intercession.
Saints are not specific to individuals. There are communities devoted to certain saints, however the rigidity you suggest (having to change saints) does not exist.
Be clear. I'm speaking from a RCC view.

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 08:09 PM
Great! Thanks, people!

Now, I want to know how would Catholic godparents play a role in the upbringing or development of a child. What do they do?

By the way, the reason why I am asking these questions is that I want to find more about the Catholic culture in which certain fairy tales were based, and I want to write a believable, moralistic, and childishly playful fairy tale too.

citymouse
12-23-2013, 08:23 PM
Great! Thanks, people!

Now, I want to know how would Catholic godparents play a role in the upbringing or development of a child. What do they do?

By the way, the reason why I am asking these questions is that I want to find more about the Catholic culture in which certain fairy tales were based, and I want to write a believable, moralistic, and childishly playful fairy tale too.

Alas the original role of godparents has become mostly ceremonial. You can look up the role of godparents on this site. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0233.html

You got me on the fairy tale angle. Of course there are people who feel the whole of the Catholic anthropology is a fairy tale. Some of it is quite amazing.
Since we're discussing prayer, you may find this from Saint Teresa of Avila helpful. 'More tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones.'

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 09:03 PM
Alas the original role of godparents has become mostly ceremonial. You can look up the role of godparents on this site. http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0233.html

You got me on the fairy tale angle. Of course there are people who feel the whole of the Catholic anthropology is a fairy tale. Some of it is quite amazing.
Since we're discussing prayer, you may find this from Saint Teresa of Avila helpful. 'More tears are shed over answered prayers than unanswered ones.'

What do you mean by "people who feel the whole of the Catholic anthropology is a fairy tale"? What's so amazing about it?

Cyia
12-23-2013, 09:11 PM
I'm curious which fairy tales you're talking about. With the *possible* exception of The Little Mermaid, most fairy tales were floating around their continents of origin before the Catholic church spread out. (That's one reason the heroes or villains in certain stories are witches or fairies instead of angels or something similar.)

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 09:18 PM
I'm curious which fairy tales you're talking about. With the *possible* exception of The Little Mermaid, most fairy tales were floating around their continents of origin before the Catholic church spread out. (That's one reason the heroes or villains in certain stories are witches or fairies instead of angels or something similar.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault

Cyia
12-23-2013, 09:29 PM
At least one of the stories he's credited with predates his life by centuries, and isn't even European - Cinderella began as a Chinese (or Persian, depending on the version) folktale.

Chris P
12-23-2013, 09:44 PM
Which fairy tales/fables/parables originated with the bible and which did not is beside the point, I think. Shoot, Christ-type virgin-birth stories go waaaay back. However, how Christianity has adopted existing stories and practices for its own use (especially in non-biblical but even in biblical accounts) seems more what the OP is after, and is an incredibly interesting topic that I am ill equipped to discuss myself.

As for godparents, in modern times they don't do very much. It was just kind of understood that they would adopt me if something happened to my parents.

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 09:48 PM
At least one of the stories he's credited with predates his life by centuries, and isn't even European - Cinderella began as a Chinese (or Persian, depending on the version) folktale.

Of course fairy tales are ancient cultural tales. They are essentially folk tales, committed to belong to the various ethnic communities. They are part of the wider range of traditional means of storytelling. I just want my fairy tale to blend in seamlessly with the fairy tale motifs found in Western culture, as that may connect more with Western readers. I think some people brush away religion as if they are not important in beliefs and attitudes of a particular culture, when understanding the religion of Western culture can elucidate the values and meaning of the traditional stories. One of my favorite fairy tales was by Hans Christian Andersen: The Red Shoes. It was translated in my parents' native language, which was not influenced by Christianity, so the cultural significance of red might be lost. When I read the English version by myself, I found that it was loaded with Christian references, and that inspired me to follow the same pattern: writing fairy tales with deep Christian morals.

Medievalist
12-23-2013, 09:52 PM
If you read medieval saint's lives, you'll see strong similarities between them and folklore/fairytales.

Later versions (c. 10th century) of medieval Irish tales have St. Patrick performing things that earlier versions (c. 6th to 8th century, based on the language) have druids doing.

And then you have what are essentially miracle duals between St. Patrick and the druids . . . and St. Brigid/Bree's earlier role as a Celtic deity . . .

citymouse
12-23-2013, 09:53 PM
What do you mean by "people who feel the whole of the Catholic anthropology is a fairy tale"? What's so amazing about it?

I was joking.

Torgo
12-23-2013, 09:59 PM
If you read medieval saint's lives, you'll see strong similarities between them and folklore/fairytales.

Later versions (c. 10th century) of medieval Irish tales have St. Patrick performing things that earlier versions (c. 6th to 8th century, based on the language) have druids doing.

And then you have what are essentially miracle duals between St. Patrick and the druids . . . and St. Brigid/Bree's earlier role as a Celtic deity . . .

There are some great Italian folk tales in Calvino about Jesus and the disciples wandering around Italy (Peter is usually the butt of the jokes); and I think the Apocrypha has a bunch of Infant Jesus stories that look just like folk tales.

King Neptune
12-23-2013, 10:39 PM
How would a Roman Catholic person interact with an Eastern Orthodox person, especially when they pray to different saints? Would one be expected to conform to the religion of another when that person moves to a new location?

A great many Roman and Eastern saints are the same, because the two sects only separated less than a thousand years ago. The basic prayers are identical in the two sects, and the ceremonies have a great deal of similarity. Eastern masses and other ceremonies are regarded as valid in the Roman Church, but I don't know whether the reverse is true.

King Neptune
12-23-2013, 10:47 PM
Great! Thanks, people!

Now, I want to know how would Catholic godparents play a role in the upbringing or development of a child. What do they do?

By the way, the reason why I am asking these questions is that I want to find more about the Catholic culture in which certain fairy tales were based, and I want to write a believable, moralistic, and childishly playful fairy tale too.

It's more like the other way around. The Jesus myth closely parallels the stories of Mithra, the son of the chief God in the ancient Persian religion, which now survives as Parseeism. As you should know, Mithraism was the most popular religion in the Roman world around the timje when Jesus was around, and the Christians absorbed what they could from that.

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 11:09 PM
It's more like the other way around. The Jesus myth closely parallels the stories of Mithra, the son of the chief God in the ancient Persian religion, which now survives as Parseeism. As you should know, Mithraism was the most popular religion in the Roman world around the timje when Jesus was around, and the Christians absorbed what they could from that.

I'm not talking about the origin of fairy tales, if that is what you seem to have in mind.

King Neptune
12-23-2013, 11:12 PM
I'm not talking about the origin of fairy tales, if that is what you seem to have in mind.

That is not what I had in mind.

WriteRex
12-23-2013, 11:46 PM
That is not what I had in mind.

Well, I had in mind of Hans Christian Andersen stories.

Ken
12-23-2013, 11:47 PM
... one needn't pray. An icon of one's patron saint is sufficient, strung on a wall w. or w/o a votive. Icons afford protection as well as luck with one's harvest and whatnot. A very old and respected custom.

Tazlima
12-24-2013, 01:23 AM
If God is a publisher, then saints are agents. They're a go-between but they're definitely not gods or goddesses themselves.

Cath
12-24-2013, 01:30 AM
WriteRex, I urge you to be very specific and cautious in your questions on this topic to avoid confusion, and to minimize the possibility of offending your fellow writers.

cornflake
12-24-2013, 01:36 AM
How would a Roman Catholic person interact with an Eastern Orthodox person, especially when they pray to different saints? Would one be expected to conform to the religion of another when that person moves to a new location?

I don't understand this part of your question. How would they interact in what way?

How does a Catholic person interact with a Jewish person or how does an Episcopalian interact with a Baptist? I don't get where what saints one might pray to would even come up.

As to the latter - eh? The presupposition is that there are municipal religions. Where are you talking about?

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 02:52 AM
WriteRex, I urge you to be very specific and cautious in your questions on this topic to avoid confusion, and to minimize the possibility of offending your fellow writers.

I understand. I didn't want to mention a specific denomination, because I know it occurs older Christian denominations (Orthodox and Catholic are the ones that I know practice this), yet Protestant denominations may think highly of saints too (Methodists instantly come to mind). I also intentionally wrote "praying to saints", because I knew that was the traditional Catholic term for "asking the saints to intercede"; unfortunately, I think there is a misinterpretation among the Protestants when they read the term "praying". I've read before that Protestants reserve the word "pray" for God.

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 03:04 AM
I don't understand this part of your question. How would they interact in what way?

How does a Catholic person interact with a Jewish person or how does an Episcopalian interact with a Baptist? I don't get where what saints one might pray to would even come up.

Well, I was thinking about how the Catholic and Orthodox Christian would view each other. Beliefs, attitudes, stereotypes that one person may have towards another. If the Catholic prays to a saint that is not accepted as canonical in the Orthodox churches, how would the Orthodox Christian react?


As to the latter - eh? The presupposition is that there are municipal religions. Where are you talking about?

Actually, I was referring to the fact that a community may have a patron saint, and I just wanted to know the difference between a patron saint and a saint, the role of the patron saint as opposed to the other saints, etc. Sorry for the confusion.

benbenberi
12-24-2013, 03:52 AM
Well, I had in mind of Hans Christian Andersen stories.

Hans Christian Andersen's stories are not really "fairy tales" except as a marketing category. He was a literary writer crafting rather sophisticated short stories for a literate fiction-reading adult public in 19c Denmark -- if you want to understand the cultural background of those stories, general questions about saints and folklore won't get you very far. You need to look instead at mid-19c urban literary culture & society (with possibly a dose of mid-19c industrialization and political radicalism).

cornflake
12-24-2013, 04:17 AM
Well, I was thinking about how the Catholic and Orthodox Christian would view each other. Beliefs, attitudes, stereotypes that one person may have towards another. If the Catholic prays to a saint that is not accepted as canonical in the Orthodox churches, how would the Orthodox Christian react?

First, you get a big tub of water...

Uhm, how would one know who the other is praying to?

Even if they did, how would they know it wasn't a saint in their chuirch?

Why, if they knew both those things, would they care? I'm not snarking, I don't get the setup at all and I'm trying to understand what you mean and how you're setting it.

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 04:18 AM
Hans Christian Andersen's stories are not really "fairy tales" except as a marketing category. He was a literary writer crafting rather sophisticated short stories for a literate fiction-reading adult public in 19c Denmark -- if you want to understand the cultural background of those stories, general questions about saints and folklore won't get you very far. You need to look instead at mid-19c urban literary culture & society (with possibly a dose of mid-19c industrialization and political radicalism).

Hmmm... Thanks for the redirecting. Hope I'll find it useful. :)

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 04:28 AM
First, you get a big tub of water...

Uhm, how would one know who the other is praying to?

Well, I once watched a movie about a Roman Catholic saint who lived in the 19th century -- Saint Marie-Therese. One character -- her own father -- was praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary by concentrating on her form as a statue. It's not to say that they pray to statues, as that is a gross misinterpretation of Catholicism.


Even if they did, how would they know it wasn't a saint in their church?

I would expect a devoted Catholic would have spend a lot of time in catechumenate class, learning about the saints and other Catholic things.


Why, if they knew both those things, would they care? I'm not snarking, I don't get the setup at all and I'm trying to understand what you mean and how you're setting it.

Well, if an intolerant Protestant accuses a Catholic of idolatry, then how far would it be if an Orthodox would accuse the Catholic of idolatry as well, by accepting non-canonical saints?

cornflake
12-24-2013, 04:39 AM
Well, I once watched a movie about a Roman Catholic saint who lived in the 19th century -- Saint Marie-Therese. One character -- her own father -- was praying to the Blessed Virgin Mary by concentrating on her form as a statue. It's not to say that they pray to statues, as that is a gross misinterpretation of Catholicism.

Indeedy. Also, there aren't statues to most saints.


I would expect a devoted Catholic would have spend a lot of time in catechumenate class, learning about the saints and other Catholic things.

In what class? Do you know how many saints there are?


Well, if an intolerant Protestant accuses a Catholic of idolatry, then how far would it be if an Orthodox would accuse the Catholic of idolatry as well, by accepting non-canonical saints?

Far.

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 04:50 AM
In what class? Do you know how many saints there are?


Catechumenate. It's a religious education class found in many Christian churches and mostly tailored towards children and converts.

According to this page (http://catholicexchange.com/saints-101-how-many-saints-are-there), the number of Catholic saints is approximately 810-921*. Some are disputed.

MattW
12-24-2013, 05:03 AM
As far as I know, only a few Catholics make extensive study of the saints.

If the saints even play a part in individual beliefs, it's typically limited to a handful who have been become part of a cultural/geograhical tradition. There may be a patron saint of many things, but most don't really apply to most situations. Virgin Mary, St Christopher, and St Jude are the most common ones I've heard most catholics refer to.

cornflake
12-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Catechumenate. It's a religious education class found in many Christian churches and mostly tailored towards children and converts.

According to this page (http://catholicexchange.com/saints-101-how-many-saints-are-there), the number of Catholic saints is approximately 810-921*. Some are disputed.

Catechism class I've heard of - that, I've not.

Yes - do you really think someone would be all 'hey, that's not a saint!' especially given the names?

WriteRex
12-24-2013, 05:25 AM
Catechism class I've heard of - that, I've not.

Yes - do you really think someone would be all 'hey, that's not a saint!' especially given the names?

Never mind. I decided to toss that idea out. It's not working.

King Neptune
12-24-2013, 05:25 PM
I would expect a devoted Catholic would have spend a lot of time in catechumenate class, learning about the saints and other Catholic things.

There are not detailed classes in saints. Most saints have been forgotten for centuries. Doctrine is taught. (That's a beautiful tautology.)


Well, if an intolerant Protestant accuses a Catholic of idolatry, then how far would it be if an Orthodox would accuse the Catholic of idolatry as well, by accepting non-canonical saints?

Nearly all Catholics would just laugh in regard to being idolaters; neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship images. Images are just things to help people bring to mind the real person.

Medievalist
12-25-2013, 01:40 AM
Indeedy. Also, there aren't statues to most saints.

You'd be surprised.

Medievalist
12-25-2013, 01:43 AM
Of course fairy tales are ancient cultural tales. They are essentially folk tales, committed to belong to the various ethnic communities.

No, really, they're not. Fairy tales are distinct from folklore in that they are written down and a literary form. They are part of the wider range of traditional means of storytelling. I just want my fairy tale to blend in seamlessly with the fairy tale motifs found in Western culture, as that may connect more with Western readers.[/quote]

Most of what people consider to be fairy tales were constructed by intensely literate people using motifs from folklore.

Medievalist
12-25-2013, 01:46 AM
As far as I know, only a few Catholics make extensive study of the saints.

Monastics tend to be exceedingly familiar with them—as are medievalists.

Medievalist
12-25-2013, 01:47 AM
There are not detailed classes in saints. Most saints have been forgotten for centuries. Doctrine is taught. (That's a beautiful tautology.)

Err . . . yeah there are. It's a formal study; hagiography.

WriteRex
12-25-2013, 05:43 AM
Medievalist, you can click on the Multi-Quote button at the bottom-right corner of every post if you want to reply to multiple posts at the same time. Personally, I find that button very efficient, because I don't have to click on the Reply button too frequently. But to each his (or her) own.


Fairy tales are distinct from folklore in that they are written down and a literary form. They are part of the wider range of traditional means of storytelling.

Most of what people consider to be fairy tales were constructed by intensely literate people using motifs from folklore.

Indeed, the Grimm Brothers were linguists and academics. Fairy tales are a subgenre of folk tales and almost always involve some element of magic and good triumphing over evil. A good rule of thumb: if there's a fairy in the story, it's a fairy tale. (http://cuip.uchicago.edu/wit/2000/teams/onceupon/whatisit.html) The folktale is then divided into two classes based on form. Those with more complex form are called fairy tales, �Marchen�, or wonder tales. The more simple in form are animal tales, jokes, anecdotes, and formula tales. It is on the fairy tales and animal tales or fables that I intend to place my emphasis, as a sampling of the folktale. (http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1984/4/84.04.01.x.html#f) I am not disagreeing with you; I am just adding more meat to your post. :)

Rufus Coppertop
12-25-2013, 08:24 PM
It's more like the other way around. The Jesus myth closely parallels the stories of Mithra, the son of the chief God in the ancient Persian religion, which now survives as Parseeism.

What sources do you have for this?

The Oxford Classical Dictionary says this about Mithraism's transmission.

Did the cult develop from and perpetuate a stream of Zoroastrianism, or was it essentially a western creation with 'Persian' trimmings? There is no agreement because there is so little evidence.

Literary references to Mithras and Mithraism are as scarce as the material remains are abundant.


As you should know, Mithraism was the most popular religion in the Roman world around the timje when Jesus was around, 2 per cent of the entire population at the very most. Scarcely the great rival to Christianity that inflated views of the cult have sometimes made it. --- OCD, Revised Third Edition, P 991.


and the Christians absorbed what they could from that.You might possibly be selling the early Christians a bit short here or overestimating the influence Mithraism might have had on Christianity.

The only way we can discern anything about the Mithraic narrative is from icons, mainly bas-reliefs recovered from Mithraea.

He was born from a rock. He sacrificed a bull. He did lunch with the Sun. That seems to be it although zodiacal relevance and mythological templates can (not necessarily invalidly) be applied to Christ's narrative from some points-of-view and such comparisons can often be illuminating.

I'm very suss about the whole Mithraism informing Christianity thing although I'd more than happy to be shown to be wrong. I do think we need to be careful about how much credence we pay to the likes of Manly Palmer Hall and others who make spectacular claims without quoting sources, who quote sources who don't, who quote completely silly sources or who make it up as they go along.

StephanieFox
12-26-2013, 03:14 AM
Some people have, for one reason or another, have their own favorite saint who they ask to intercede with God about what they need. This could have to do with a personal experience, with their personal admiration of that saint, if they were born on that saint's day or if they share a name with a saint.

Rufus Coppertop
12-26-2013, 03:37 AM
If the Catholic prays to a saint that is not accepted as canonical in the Orthodox churches, how would the Orthodox Christian react?

How do you want them to react? You're the one writing the story. They're going to be your characters, not mine or someone else's.

Get your basic doctrines right and let your humans be as they are.

How will the Orthodox guy react? Here are two possibilites.

He rolls his eyes and says nothing at all.

He rolls a joint and shares it with the Catholic. They both get stoned, discuss theology and giggle a bit.

You need to understand the differences between Catholic and Orthodox hagiolatry and hagiodoxy (is that a word, Medi?) so that your characters or at least their priests do.

Their reactions to minor differences in doctrine though are up to them. There are no rules that seek to micromanage an Orthodox Christians way of relating to a Catholic who prays to an extra-canonical saint.

Bloo
12-26-2013, 12:02 PM
While I'm not RCC (or Orthodox) I do tend to have a "favorite" saint that I use almost as a...I hesitate to say Talisman but that's kind of what it is LOL

Anywhosit, my favorite saint is Genesius, the patron saint of actors, clowns, and comedians (as well as lawyers and printers). So there is really a saint and a Saints Day for just about anyone.

I grew up in a Methodist tradition, and no one ever said anything about the saints, I mean we would quote from St. Francis (usually "preach the gospel to all the world and if necessary use words"). In my twenties, I was pretty heavily involved for a couple of years in the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement and some of them would read a lot about the saints (mainly because you have to perform two documented miracles for Sainthood [I believe]) particularly Francis again and Therese of Avalia (sp?). Brother Lawrence (not a saint but highly regarded) was also pretty heavily read with his book Practicing the Presence of God. No one suggested that they intercede or pray for us though.

As someone who grew up in the Methodist tradition, I can tell you what happened when I encountered a RCC or a EO talking about the saints. I went "cool" and that was it. The prayers to the Virgin Mary (and her title the "Queen of Heaven", which is used in...Revelations I believe, as a term for a demon) were usually what rattled the protestants I knew, not prayers to the saints.

When I worked in a newspaper, every once in awhile we'd get a classified ad that was someone printing a prayer to Mary or one of the Saints. It never once got any kind of response from anyone.

Chris P
12-26-2013, 12:14 PM
Never mind. I decided to toss that idea out. It's not working.

If you were looking for a reason for the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Catholic to disagree, you can focus on the issues that caused the split in the first place, such as the supremacy of the pope (who the Orthodoxy regards as the patriarch of Rome, and not the head of the entire church).

King Neptune
12-26-2013, 05:50 PM
What sources do you have for this?

Various sources for various things related.


The Oxford Classical Dictionary says this about Mithraism's transmission.

Did the cult develop from and perpetuate a stream of Zoroastrianism, or was it essentially a western creation with 'Persian' trimmings? There is no agreement because there is so little evidence.

Literary references to Mithras and Mithraism are as scarce as the material remains are abundant.

Circumstantial evidence indicates that Mithraism originated in the Persia and spread from there. As I understand it, most of the literature about Mithraism is by non-Mithraists, but it is quite possible that it changed dramatically from its Persian origin.


2 per cent of the entire population at the very most. Scarcely the great rival to Christianity that inflated views of the cult have sometimes made it. --- OCD, Revised Third Edition, P 991.

I have never seen census records that reported religion from that period, but I have read that Mithraism had become more popular than the Greek and Roman religions in the East and among the military.


You might possibly be selling the early Christians a bit short here or overestimating the influence Mithraism might have had on Christianity.

I don't think so, but no one was providing detailed information along those line, so we can't be sure.


The only way we can discern anything about the Mithraic narrative is from icons, mainly bas-reliefs recovered from Mithraea.

He was born from a rock. He sacrificed a bull. He did lunch with the Sun. That seems to be it although zodiacal relevance and mythological templates can (not necessarily invalidly) be applied to Christ's narrative from some points-of-view and such comparisons can often be illuminating.

I'm very suss about the whole Mithraism informing Christianity thing although I'd more than happy to be shown to be wrong. I do think we need to be careful about how much credence we pay to the likes of Manly Palmer Hall and others who make spectacular claims without quoting sources, who quote sources who don't, who quote completely silly sources or who make it up as they go along.

How much Christianity took from Mithraism is a guess at ths point, and will continue to be a guess until we get a good time machine. But when one looks at the differences between the Gospels and practice and notices correlations with other things, it appears that significant parts of Mithraism were borrowed by the Christians.