PDA

View Full Version : virginity and self-mutilation



TellMeAStory
12-01-2013, 12:29 AM
It's 1934 and a 45 year old nurse is found in the stirrups having viciously pseudo-D&C'd herself to death. She was not pregnant. In fact, I'd like the doctors to be able to tell that previous to this, she'd been a virgin. Can I do that?

Maryn
12-01-2013, 12:31 AM
If her hymen is intact, sure. Whether that's possible depends on how and in what way she was vicious with her fake D&C.

Maryn, who lost her hymen to a Danish modern chair's arm

buz
12-01-2013, 12:40 AM
A doctor can't reliably tell whether a woman is a virgin or not. The hymen may not "break" during intercourse, it may "break" during something that is not intercourse, size and shape of the hymen itself and the hole already there may vary, and some women don't have one.

Whether or not your doctors think they can tell, I suppose, depends on how things were in 1934...which I don't know anything about, so I'm useless there.

:)

The_Ink_Goddess
12-01-2013, 01:01 AM
A doctor can't reliably tell whether a woman is a virgin or not. The hymen may not "break" during intercourse, it may "break" during something that is not intercourse, size and shape of the hymen itself and the hole already there may vary, and some women don't have one.

Whether or not your doctors think they can tell, I suppose, depends on how things were in 1934...which I don't know anything about, so I'm useless there.

:)

Most of my biology knowledge comes from Law & Order: SVU, but, yes, all of this is true - but, if your character had a hymen and it was still intact, would that "prove" virginity?

buz
12-01-2013, 01:08 AM
Most of my biology knowledge comes from Law & Order: SVU, but, yes, all of this is true - but, if your character had a hymen and it was still intact, would that "prove" virginity?

No. :)

Here's one source (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/A 2004 study published in the Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine reported "Subjects who admitted having past intercourse still had non disrupted, intact hymens in 52% of cases.") on the subject:



A 2004 study published in the Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine reported "Subjects who admitted having past intercourse still had non disrupted, intact hymens in 52% of cases."
study of the genitals (especially the hymens) of pregnant girls published that same year in Pediatrics found that, "Despite definitive evidence of sexual contact (pregnancy (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/pregnancy)), only 2 of 36 adolescents had genital changes that were diagnostic of penetrating trauma (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/trauma)" (Pediatrics Vol. 113 No. 1 January 2004).
a 2007 study published in Pediatrics reports, "The hymenal injuries in these prepubertal and adolescent girls all healed rapidly and frequently left little or no evidence of the previous trauma... These findings reaffirm the remarkably complex healing process that occurs after a hymenal injury. (Pediatrics 2007;119;e1094-e1106) So even when the hymen does tear, it appears to have an amazing ability to heal and repair itself, at least in young women. However, what the doctors of 1934 think of intact hymens may be more relevant than the actual fact? ;)

(Whether or not it could be "intact" after such trauma is something I have absolutely no knowledge of, though, so it may be irrelevant :p I dunno)

Medievalist
12-01-2013, 01:15 AM
Most of my biology knowledge comes from Law & Order: SVU, but, yes, all of this is true - but, if your character had a hymen and it was still intact, would that "prove" virginity?

No. It would not.

mccardey
12-01-2013, 01:29 AM
Ah, hymens. I got caned in communion class for asking the nun if a hymen was a hymnal for women. God knows where I'd seen the word written... One thing that did come of that was the explanation of what hymens actually were, via Sister Anne Mary. A hymen, girls, is a secret message about you, between God and your husband.

There was more info about the importance of not letting it get lost or broken or run through the washing machine, but then Deidre Keanny got sent out of the room for arguing (she grew up to be a Doctor. A lady Doctor! Who'd have thought?) and then the conversation drifted off vaguely into the danger of things like horse-riding and climbing trees and generally behaving like boys.

Oh come back, 1964! You were so full of mysteries and magic - and all that we're left with now is bloody misogyny. :cry: Oh, how I miss you.

andiwrite
12-01-2013, 02:14 AM
This is of no help at all, but I'd just like to say:

OUCH. :(

Tazlima
12-01-2013, 03:42 AM
Ah, hymens. I got caned in communion class for asking the nun if a hymen was a hymnal for women.

LMAO! This is awesome!

Er...not the caning part.

Calla Lily
12-01-2013, 05:47 AM
mccardey, that was epic.

mccardey
12-01-2013, 05:50 AM
Welcome to my childhood. :Sun:

Calla Lily
12-01-2013, 06:25 AM
I was 3 years old in 1964. By the time I took First Communion class in 1968, the nuns were trying a kinder, gentler scheme. Verbal lashings instead of physical. :rolleyes:

mccardey
12-01-2013, 06:30 AM
I was 3 years old in 1964. By the time I took First Communion class in 1968, the nuns were trying a kinder, gentler scheme. Verbal lashings instead of physical. :rolleyes:

Not in Australia they weren't. I was five in '64, seven in Communion Class in '66 and caned last on my last day of convent-school at the end of '69.

ETA: '64 was my best year. They hadn't started showing us films of child-martyrdoms in China yet.

Karen Junker
12-01-2013, 06:53 AM
And I thought the First Free Methodists were harsh for not letting us dance.

Calla Lily
12-01-2013, 07:04 AM
*hugs* We never got whapped. My dad, though, has a nun grab his ears and bang the back of his head repeatedly against the chalkboard, for giving attitude. This was in the late 1940s.

mccardey
12-01-2013, 07:08 AM
*hugs* We never got whapped. My dad, though, has a nun grab his ears and bang the back of his head repeatedly against the chalkboard, for giving attitude. This was in the late 1940s.

Hmm. Your late forties were our late sixties. Clearly :)

Orianna2000
12-01-2013, 08:45 AM
I did a bunch of research into hymens and virginity on behalf of a friend who suspected she'd been abused as a child and wanted evidence. Basically, there is no definitive way of telling if someone is a virgin or not. As others have mentioned, there might be an intact hymen even after sex, or there might be no hymen at all, even for a virgin. (Also of note, the hymen is not actually a "barrier" to be breached during sex. It's not a wall, it doesn't stop penetration, and it doesn't break. It stretches and tears. Sometimes. Every time I read a romance novel where the man must force his way past the woman's maidenhead, I cringe, because they always get it wrong.)

Also, I know someone who was told by a doctor that they were imagining their childhood sexual abuse, simply because it was painful when they examined her. The doctor said this pain was evidence of an intact hymen. Well, as it turns out, my friend had vaginismus, a medical condition that causes vaginal spasms (i.e. pain) at the slightest touch down there. It also turns out that, in many cases, vaginismus is caused by sexual trauma. So. . . . yeah. Doctor = Idiot.

As for the OP, I would guess that a D/C would obliterate any hymen that would have existed, based on the nature of the procedure. But I could be wrong.

mccardey
12-01-2013, 08:52 AM
I did a bunch of research into hymens and virginity on behalf of a friend who suspected she'd been abused as a child and wanted evidence. Basically, there is no definitive way of telling if someone is a virgin or not. As others have mentioned, there might be an intact hymen even after sex, or there might be no hymen at all, even for a virgin. (Also of note, the hymen is not actually a "barrier" to be breached during sex. It's not a wall, it doesn't stop penetration, and it doesn't break. It stretches and tears. Sometimes. Every time I read a romance novel where the man must force his way past the woman's maidenhead, I cringe, because they always get it wrong.)

Also, I know someone who was told by a doctor that they were imagining their childhood sexual abuse, simply because it was painful when they examined her. The doctor said this pain was evidence of an intact hymen. Well, as it turns out, my friend had vaginismus, a medical condition that causes vaginal spasms (i.e. pain) at the slightest touch down there. It also turns out that, in many cases, vaginismus is caused by sexual trauma. So. . . . yeah. Doctor = Idiot.

As for the OP, I would guess that a D/C would obliterate any hymen that would have existed, based on the nature of the procedure. But I could be wrong.

Well - hang on...

ETA: But to return to the topic - a belief in the magical interpretive power of hymens is basically (and historically) nothing more than yet another way for men to control women. Just sayin'

Helix
12-01-2013, 09:10 AM
a belief in the magical interpretive power of hymens

I'm sure someone's written a book about it: 'Hymenomancy: A look beyond the veil'.

buz
12-01-2013, 05:26 PM
As for the OP, I would guess that a D/C would obliterate any hymen that would have existed, based on the nature of the procedure. But I could be wrong.

I was thinking on this more (because I sit around and think about hymens, apparently) and, as a reader, having only a cursory knowledge of what a D&C is, and knowing that whatever she did was severe enough to kill herself, I would probably find it a stretch of believability that her hymen would be intact without some brief explanation. Just an initial reaction as an uneducated casual reader, though. :)

TellMeAStory
12-01-2013, 07:12 PM
Good point, buzhidao. I guess what I'm really asking is could a doctor tell if the hymen was RECENTLY ruptured, i.e. by the mutilation--and not by previous sexual activity.

cornflake
12-01-2013, 09:23 PM
Good point, buzhidao. I guess what I'm really asking is could a doctor tell if the hymen was RECENTLY ruptured, i.e. by the mutilation--and not by previous sexual activity.

No, nor would that tell anyone anything about virginity as, see the above posts.

Williebee
12-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Although, it appears the real question would be in 1934 would a Doctor think that they could, and would people believe said doctor?

valibby
12-02-2013, 04:50 AM
I think if the woman had an intact hymen (which I think is doubtful at her age - plenty of things could damage it), her gruesome act would have obliterated it and doctors would be able to see that (recent damage, etc). In 1934, it would be decided that she had been a virgin.

Lost mine to a bicycle seat in grade 6.

I want to know more about your story. Because wtf? That's a damn weird thing to do, and I like weird.

TellMeAStory
12-02-2013, 08:00 PM
Many thanks guys. I think I know what I'm going to do now.

Valibby, the MC in my story is a nursing student who doesn't have money enough to make it through all three years. The self-mutilator is a woman who claims to be a nurse but has no training. She is the model of what might befall MC if she fails to make it--at least that's the way MC sees it.

TellMeAStory
12-02-2013, 08:02 PM
Many thanks guys. I think I know what I'm going to do now.

Valibby, the MC in my story is a nursing student who doesn't have money enough to make it through all three years. The self-mutilator is a woman who claims to be a nurse but has no training. She is the model of what might befall MC if she fails to make it--at least that's the way MC sees it.

ECathers
12-08-2013, 11:18 AM
Now granted there was no medical evidence for this but it seems my hymen managed to survive about 2 years of rather vigorous sex with multiple partners.

Then one day I had sex with another guy and something started bleeding - it never had before. It was definitely not my period.

Maybe there were other factors, I don't know and I'm not a medical professional.

I hesitate even coming out and saying this because I don't prefer to be labeled because of my early promiscuity. But there you have it.

maggi90w1
12-08-2013, 03:26 PM
Every time I read a romance novel where the man must force his way past the woman's maidenhead
Especially when the maidenhead is supposed to be located inside the vagina... like halfway in. No! (I'm looking at you, Ken Follett).