Why is getting published by a publisher better than self publishing?

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
I am not sure this is the right place for this thread. But I have been wondering about this.
It takes ages to go through agent/publisher etc
While with self publishing (on kindle) it's immediate, you get immediate reponse.
So is it just a matter of advertising?
And why would a publisher who might be interested in your book not decide to offer you a contract just because it's been online for a few months?
Thanks!
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,354
Reaction score
4,661
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
I am not sure this is the right place for this thread. But I have been wondering about this.
It takes ages to go through agent/publisher etc
While with self publishing (on kindle) it's immediate, you get immediate reponse.

Well, if that's what you want - an immediate response - go for it.

Though I wouldn't assume that just because you put something up on the Kindle, people will respond right away. And what if the response is something like, "I'd give this zero stars if I could - it looks like the author didn't spend any time editing or proofreading it"?

Personally, I'd rather spend as much time as is needed and get it right rather than rush it into print.
 

jimmymc

Benefactor Member
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
216
Reaction score
12
Depends on the publisher-Plenty of fly by night rip-offs out there.

Depends on the writer and how much work they're willing to do before they self-publish.
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,954
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Coastal Desert
Moved from Strategic/WLA subforum.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
I am not sure this is the right place for this thread. But I have been wondering about this.
It takes ages to go through agent/publisher etc
While with self publishing (on kindle) it's immediate, you get immediate reponse.
So is it just a matter of advertising?

Is what just a matter of advertising? If you mean selling lots of copies, then no, you need to do much more than advertising to achieve good sales when you self publish. You need to publish well, in the first place, which has sadly proved to be beyond most of the self publishers whose books I've seen.

And why would a publisher who might be interested in your book not decide to offer you a contract just because it's been online for a few months?
Thanks!
There are lots of reasons. Here are a few.

If you've failed to sell many copies you'll have proved that your book has no commercial potential; and if you've sold a lot then you might well have saturated its market; if you're not a competent publisher you won't necessarily know until you publish, and then there'll be a dodgy edition of your work with your name on it in circulation, which might well deter anyone who encounters it from reading any other books you might publish....

Not all agents and publishers are reluctant to work with books which have been self published. But there are enough for it to substantially reduce your options if you do then decide to seek representation, and with the market limited before you start, why would you make it even harder for yourself?
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Whether it's better depends on the writer and what they want to accomplish. Unfortunately (IMHO) the rush to get it out there is one of the worst reasons to self-publish, but if that's paramount to the author...

But each route has its good and bad aspects - learn about both and decide which one better fits your needs and go for it.
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
And then, self-publishing a book doesn't make it anything a publisher would want even if it wasn't already self-published, either.

As to why "getting published by a publisher is better than self-publishing," I wouldn't say that as an absolute blanket statement. But it does at least mean someone deemed it worthy of publishing, besides the person who wrote it. That other person or persons likely has experience as well, and liked it over a pile of others enough to put money behind it. And then, we assume the publisher edited it and has a distribution channel and... but you probably already know this, yes?
 
Last edited:

kaitie

With great power comes
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
11,052
Reaction score
2,642
It depends on what you want and the circumstances for the book. But lets assume we're speaking equally, about a book that can easily be picked up by the big 5 publishers. You have the choice between, say, an average Random House contract and a self-publishing contract.

It's possible that, because your book is presumably well-written and good (hence the interest from Random House), you might be able to sell copies self-publishing as well. So here are a few advantages to taking the contract:

1) Money up front. Random House would pay you an advance (likely a fairly nice one, as your agent will be negotiating for you. I'm not talking tons, but I've seen in a few places that the average agented advance for a first-time author is $10,000. I'd take $10,000 in a heartbeat. That's over half what I make in a year.

2) You don't have to pay an expense up front. With self-publishing, you have to cover the art, editing, formatting, etc. You're starting out with a negative baseline. Editing alone can cost $1500, so you're looking at being out a fair amount of money. As we're assuming your book is stellar enough to rock Random House's socks, it might sell enough to make up the costs, maaaybe even earn what you would have gotten from the advance, but it's a gamble. You've spent a lot of money with no guarantee of making any of it back.

3) Random House will try to get your book into bookstores. Not everyone has ereaders. A lot of book sales still happen in bookstores, and you're giving up a fairly large proportion of potential sales if you go only print or only ebooks. A contract will almost certainly give you both. A self-publisher can perhaps have print books set up to be sold POD online, but getting them into more than a local bookstore or two won't happen.

4) You'll get help with promotion in various ways that might lead to higher sales.

5) If the book doesn't sell well, you've still got your advance. You were still paid for the work and effort that went into it. If you self-publish and don't sell well, you get nothing (and keeping in mind you started out in the red, this is harder than it looks).

6) You don't have to worry about the logistics of finding an artist, editor, formatter, blah blah blah, or doing constant promotions and marketing. Amanda Hocking had said she spent the majority of her time marketing and not writing as a self-publisher, which was one of her main reasons for taking a contract when offered. Just a lot less to stress about.

Now, there are reasons why it might be a good idea to self-publish. You think it sounds fun and don't mind if you don't sell many copies (you have to be okay with this because there is no guarantee and most don't). You just want to see if you can do it, or do it for the experience of it. You have enough money to spend on it without getting pinched if it goes badly. You have a book that you want to share with family and friends and making money/a career out of it isn't your goal. You have a book that's out of print that you'd like to make some extra money on. You have a book that is really great but got turned down because it fits into a weird marketing niche that a big publisher isn't willing to take a risk on.

That being said, the above assumes that the book is of publishable quality. One of the most important things you would need as a self-publisher is competent writing ability, and that's what a lot of people lack. If you do decide to self-publish, make sure you've done your homework and put in the time and effort into a quality product. That means going beyond having friends or family proofread it for you. It means getting beta readers who can tell you in an unbiased way whether or not your writing is up to speed. Put some parts into SYW. Make sure you have an editor who can help you with content, and preferably an editor to check for errors as well.

I've heard a lot of people say that they don't want to wait, but consider that it often takes years for someone to be good enough to ask people to spend money on their work. For many, writing is a long game. It's something we spend a lot of time perfecting and learning about.

Whenever I see someone who is in a hurry, my first thought is to slow down. Before you ever consider which path, you need to spend a lot of time doing the research on both forms to truly understand them as much as possible before you make decisions. I spent six months researching before I ever sent out my first query. It's important to understand how this industry works and what the expectations are so that you can present yourself professionally and have a chance at success.

Don't rush it. It's fun to have a book that you're excited about and you just want to see it out there on shelves RIGHT NOW, but this just isn't a world that moves fast. Even when self-publishing, if doing it right it's going to take time.

Considering this came from the Strategic forum, I'm going to guess that more research is a good place to start.
 

sheadakota

part of the human equation
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
3,956
Reaction score
1,151
Location
The Void
The answer depends on what you expect to get out of being published.
Everything Kaitie said, read her post carefully, there is a lot of great advice in there.

I might add my own 2 cents for what its worth.

I have been published by two small presses, but still with my first book I thought I knew how to self edit-- until my editor got hold of it. I soon learned I had no Idea what I was doing and have immense respect for all my editors. They took a very rough MS and turned into something worthy of being read. I could never have made it as great as they helped me make it.

then there was the cover art and the digital as well as print formatting, the reviews my publisher got for me, the marketing and the promotions. I had no clue what I was doing or how to go about it.

Now a little more educated, I have regained my print rights back from my first publisher and am about to release my first book in print again. I had to go back and re- edit- there were still some mistakes and I had the luxury of fixing certain dialogue and add scenes I always thought should be included, I hired someone to design a cover for me, she also formatted the book for me as I am still clueless as how to do that. It was a lot of work for just the two of us and cost more than I thought it would. I am still pondering over whether I will do this with my other books or not. I have two other MS that are not published and before this I had toyed with the idea of self publishing them. Not anymore. It is a lot A LOT of work. it costs A LOT of money. and you may never break even. not something I want. I dont make a lot in royalties but I never had red to make up for either, it was all pure profit, I liked it that way.
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,644
Reaction score
4,097
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
I am not sure this is the right place for this thread. But I have been wondering about this.
It takes ages to go through agent/publisher etc
While with self publishing (on kindle) it's immediate, you get immediate reponse.
So is it just a matter of advertising?

Advertising is part of it, though it's not the biggest one.

When a publisher offers on / purchases rights to a book, they're agreeing to invest time, money, and reputation to make that book work. They edit it professionally; they get professional artists who know the market to make the cover; they go through proven channels to get your book to the people likely to purchase it. When you self publish, you have to do those first two steps out of your own pocket, and may not be able to crack the third at all. Most current self publishing is done via e-book, and there are still a lot of readers who don't (or can't) use e-readers.

Also, with the exception of a few magazines and journals where the prestige is part of the payment, publishers will pay you an advance, meaning up front money based on what they believe the book will sell over time. With self-publishing, any monetary payoff is on the backside of things.

With readers, you get the added bonus of some who frequent a specific publisher because they know the kind and quality of books they can get from that publisher. It's a comfort zone.

And why would a publisher who might be interested in your book not decide to offer you a contract just because it's been online for a few months?
Thanks!

Some will still be interested; some won't.

When your book's been online for any period of time, that means people have been able to read it for free, which reduces the pool of potential buyers down the line. If it's been up long enough to be cached, then that pool shrinks further because the book is searchable even after it's been taken off the site you had it posted on. (Not all sites cache, so that's not always a danger.)

If you've had it up for sale, then its sale record becomes a plus or minus for you. Strong sales can mean a potential break-out hit -- OR -- they can mean you've exhausted your audience pool. Weak sales can mean that no one knew the book existed -- OR -- they can mean nothing at all.
 

Deleted member 42

I don't know that it's better. It is different. What matters is what's best for the particular book, and the particular author.

I've done both self-publishing, and trade publishing.

With trade publishing, I write the book, it is professionally edited, proofed, typeset, composited, indexed, and designed, with a high-quality cover, and printed.

They then sell the book to thousands of bookstores, and provide it in multiple digital formats, and have it translated.

I receive an advance, usually half on signing, and half on final delivery.

So far, I've also received royalties because the books have sold through the advance.

Meanwhile, I've already started on a new book before the first royalty check on book 1 has arrived.

For my part, it often makes more sense to trade publish, because my time is worth money, and it takes a while to recoup the value of my time and labor when I self-publish.
 

NewKidOldKid

diplomat
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
831
Reaction score
49
Well, self-publishing is a lot more work. There's finding the right cover, finding an editor, paying for everything yourself... So, in that sense, trade publishing is better because somebody else is in charge of all that.

But overall? It depends on your goals.
 

triceretops

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
14,060
Reaction score
2,755
Location
In a van down by the river
Website
guerrillawarfareforwriters.blogspot.com
The cost associated with:

Formatting
Cover Art
Multi-level editing

is all very prohibitive to me and I need them all. I have no desire to start out in the hole on a book that might sell average or below numbers, which I've just experienced. If I had invested in all those services with my (current) self-published book, instead of having them donated to me (thank the maker and the contributors), I would have lost a potentially large sum of money.

At least I've made money every time I went with a commercial publisher, no matter what size.

tri
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,354
Reaction score
4,661
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
Whenever I see someone who is in a hurry, my first thought is to slow down. Before you ever consider which path, you need to spend a lot of time doing the research on both forms to truly understand them as much as possible before you make decisions.

I know of a writer who self-published his first book, then pulled it. I believe he needed to correct typos and other problems.

Self-published it for the second time (as the Revised and Expanded Edition), then pulled it again to look for an agent.

It's now been self-published for the third time. All three books have different covers but the same title.

This writer got an immediate response from me. "Good grief." Backspace.
 

HoldinHolden

Blogger, author, poop joke maker
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
853
Reaction score
42
Website
holdinholden.com
I am self-published. It is hard work. All of the responsibility is on you, and most don't have someone helping with marketing, advertising, editing, etc. It's ALL on you. And while I have done some great things, I've found that no chain bookstores will have me in for a signing because I use createspace which is POD, and some news outlets don't take me as seriously as they do published authors. It's been very frustrating on that front, and exhausting to not have any "help" as I would with a trade publisher.
 

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
Thanks, everyone! You make the publisher route sound like the better one, but then again, what if I spend a year looking for a publisher and nobody picks it up? I got a positive response from an agent for my last book (but hadn't finished it), so I could try sending this one to her. I have heard you should always go through an agent, but what if she can't find a publisher for it and all my hard work is stuck with her?
I'm not sure. I have a couple of friends who self published a children's book with simple text and a few illustrations they did years ago at art school. Well, the book is selling quite well in Italy! What will happen when they translate it into English and it becomes available to British, American, Canadian readers etc?
I don't know if it's still like it was about 10 years ago when I tried with my first novel (the one I never got round to finishing)? Do you still have to send a self addressed envelope with your ms? Do you still have to wait 3 months on average to get a reply which more often than not is a standard rejection slip and nobody really even bothered reading the first page of your work? Because if that is how it is, well it sounds pretty dreary.
Of course I would love to make a career out of it. It's what I've wanted all my life. I truly thought that with self publishing if your novel was good enough, if the formatting and editing was well done, then that of course people would read it and the word would spread. I thought that had been the case with Fifty Shades and others out there. My bubble has burst! :-/
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
Thanks, everyone! You make the publisher route sound like the better one, but then again, what if I spend a year looking for a publisher and nobody picks it up? I got a positive response from an agent for my last book (but hadn't finished it), so I could try sending this one to her. I have heard you should always go through an agent, but what if she can't find a publisher for it and all my hard work is stuck with her?

If your first book doesn't sell then your agent would move onto your next book. You could then choose to leave the book unpublished, or self publish it at that stage.

I'm not sure. I have a couple of friends who self published a children's book with simple text and a few illustrations they did years ago at art school. Well, the book is selling quite well in Italy! What will happen when they translate it into English and it becomes available to British, American, Canadian readers etc?

Who knows!

What does speculation about your friends' translated children's book have to do with how you should proceed?

I don't know if it's still like it was about 10 years ago when I tried with my first novel (the one I never got round to finishing)? Do you still have to send a self addressed envelope with your ms? Do you still have to wait 3 months on average to get a reply which more often than not is a standard rejection slip and nobody really even bothered reading the first page of your work? Because if that is how it is, well it sounds pretty dreary.

There are stickies all over AW which will answer many of your questions. But your assertion that no one will bother reading the first page of your submission is not correct, and you're insulting the integrity of the many people who spend their time reading slush.

Of course I would love to make a career out of it. It's what I've wanted all my life. I truly thought that with self publishing if your novel was good enough, if the formatting and editing was well done, then that of course people would read it and the word would spread.

Go and read some of the diary threads in the Self Publishing room. It'll give you a little bit of an idea about how hard people have to work to make the sales that they do.

I thought that had been the case with Fifty Shades and others out there. My bubble has burst! :-/

Fifty Shades of Grey wasn't self-published.
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,354
Reaction score
4,661
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
Thanks, everyone! You make the publisher route sound like the better one

I don't want to give anyone the impression that "Trade publishing is always better" or the impression that "Self-publishing is always better".

It really depends on what the author wants, what the author can do, what the book is like, and other factors.

but then again, what if I spend a year looking for a publisher and nobody picks it up?
That's a possibility.

Are you prepared to consider your work critically and correct problems, or to write another book?

I don't know if it's still like it was about 10 years ago when I tried with my first novel
It's not even still like it was about 10 months ago. Publishing changes.

I truly thought that with self publishing if your novel was good enough, if the formatting and editing was well done, then that of course people would read it and the word would spread.
But how do people find out about your book when they're looking for something to read?

Amazon isn't going to advertise the book for you just because it's on the Kindle. Amazon has a million self-published books already. Who's going to promote and review yours?

All things to consider before rushing into self-publishing because you want instant feedback or success on the Fifty Shades of Grey level.
 
Last edited:

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
I honestly don't think I insulted anyone, Old Hack and speculation about how my friends' book is going is just the first and only example I have of someone I know who has tackled self publishing and it went surprisingly well, so that is the first hand idea I got of self publishing.
How do people find out about my book? I don't know, when I am looking for something to read on amazon I go by genre, usually and then I look at the reviews, I hardly ever check out the ones that are advertised, but then that might just be me.
So basically if an agent can't place your first book with a publisher would they still want you to write a second one? I would be prepared to do that of course, at which point I would try and self publish the first one.
 

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
PS Fifty Shades was online for ages before an agent picked it up from what I have read
 

Marian Perera

starting over
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
14,354
Reaction score
4,661
Location
Heaven is a place on earth called Toronto.
Website
www.marianperera.com
PS Fifty Shades was online for ages before an agent picked it up from what I have read

Fifty Shades was originally Twilight fanfiction posted online. It built up a large readership that way before the author changed the characters' names and published it through The Writers' Coffee Shop. After that it was released by Vintage Books.
 

WendyN

8-armed cyborg tree
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
1,904
Reaction score
181
Location
in the mountain's shadow
So basically if an agent can't place your first book with a publisher would they still want you to write a second one? I would be prepared to do that of course, at which point I would try and self publish the first one.

This would be a discussion to have with your agent when you get one. Sometimes a book that may not be able to be sold as a debut would get better reception once you have an established fan base, or would sell better in a few years once the trends have changed. But yes, agents are generally interested in your career as a writer and are going to want you to keep writing regardless of if they actually sell your first novel.
 

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
That's interesting, I didn't know about fifty shades being twilight fanfiction, I wouldn't have imagined it having much in common with Twilight!
Anyway, I have come to a decision. I will contact the agent who was interested in my first novel. Is there an area in this forum where I could get info about agents' reputation? I seem to remember there was, but this forum is so vast I keep getting lost!
Thanks for all your advice!
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
I honestly don't think I insulted anyone, Old Hack

I don't think you intended to insult anyone: but I do think that you came close to doing so, nevertheless.

This is the part I objected to:

Do you still have to wait 3 months on average to get a reply which more often than not is a standard rejection slip and nobody really even bothered reading the first page of your work?

What you're saying there is that the people whose job it is to read slush piles don't "even bother" to do their job. That's a big insult to their integrity and ability, right there.

Having spent a lot of my working life reading slush I can assure you that not only do most people in publishing "bother" to do their jobs as thoughtfully and as well as they can, including reading slush, they usually give up their own time to do it. So those submissions that you suggest aren't even read are actually often read in the evenings and weekends, when most people are at home or out having fun with their friends, just so that writers can receive those standard rejection slips you seem to find so unreasonable.
 

Foolonthehill

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 17, 2012
Messages
205
Reaction score
9
Location
Rome
I am sorry, Old Hack, but I came across a whole area in this forum where they mentioned personalised rejections slips as opposed to standard ones and I was assuming they meant the standard rejections indicated the ms had not been read. Sorry if I came across as insulting