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mesh138
02-25-2006, 04:15 AM
One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."
I don't know the rule. I know you put it when listing things (I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub). How about two sentences like these:


I put down the tray and ran to the door.
Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do.

unthoughtknown
02-25-2006, 04:21 AM
Well, I'd say that both sentences don't require a comma...

pianoman5
02-25-2006, 05:47 AM
One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And"

I guess you meant before "and".

In your first example: "I put down the tray and ran to the door"
it's not necessary, because only the first clause is independent.


Your second example is an interesting (and potentially confusing) one, because in this case the comma is optional:

"Waverly got upset, and I didn't know what to do."
is correct, because the two clauses are independent -- that is, each can stand alone, as in: "Waverly got upset. I didn't know what to do."

But equally, "Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do." is fine, because the clauses are short.

How long do independent clauses need to be before the comma ceases to be optional? Ah, well, there's a question. That appears to be a matter for writerly judgement, if not plain old common sense, in which faithfully representing the desired rhythm is a guiding principle.

Sage
02-25-2006, 05:49 AM
But equally, "Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do." is fine, because the clauses are short.

How long do independent clauses need to be before the comma ceases to be optional? Ah, well, there's a question. That appears to be a matter for writerly judgement, if not plain old common sense, in which faithfully representing the desired rhythm is a guiding principle.I didn't know this was an option.

reph
02-25-2006, 06:17 AM
I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub.
Pianoman took care of your question. Here's another one: is the sample sentence above correctly constructed? Answer: no.

I went to

school
the library
later to the nightclub

"School" is a noun. "The library" is a noun with an article. So far, so good. But "to the nightclub" isn't a noun. It's a prepositional phrase. Not to get too technical, I hope, but the important thing isn't to have them all nouns or not; it's to have them all substantives or not. Nouns are substantives, and so are some other things.

This is correct: "I went to school, to the library, and later to the nightclub."

This is also correct: "I went to school, the library, and later the nightclub."

(grasshopper)
02-25-2006, 06:34 PM
Pianoman took care of your question. Here's another one: is the sample sentence above correctly constructed? Answer: no.


Ah yes, reph, you picked up on that, too.

I think part of the mechanism involved here is parallelism.

For example it would be okay to say:

I went to the school, to the library, and later to the nightclub.

But if you ellipse the preposition in one of the succeeding phrases, then you should ellipse it in all of them (just to keep things parallel).

I went to the school, (to) the library, and later (to) the nightclub.

I'm not sure but I think this is more a matter of aesthetics, rather than a rule.

reph
02-25-2006, 10:29 PM
It's a rule. A failure of parallelism is a fault in the grammar of the sentence. People need to return to diagramming sentences.

Jamesaritchie
02-26-2006, 06:17 AM
One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."
I don't know the rule. I know you put it when listing things (I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub). How about two sentences like these:


I put down the tray and ran to the door.
Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do.

No comma in the first. Definitely a comma in the second.

(grasshopper)
02-26-2006, 07:34 AM
So it is a rule. Thank you. I should have checked.

Yes, I'd love to see the return of sentence diagramming in school. You know, when I was trying to find reference books on diagramming, I called my local grammar school to see if they had any books on the subject. They didn't, of course, and the concept was so foreign to them that they had trouble understanding what I wanted at first.

I had to laugh at the irony when I hung up. It was a grammar school for heaven's sake!

sacredmime
03-02-2006, 09:57 PM
Yes, grasshopper, I had the same problem when I had chemistry questions in my elementary school . Or when I had substance abuse questions for my high school counselor. (ugh, sorry about that :)

(grasshopper)
03-03-2006, 07:03 AM
I'm sorry, sacredmime. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

reph
03-03-2006, 07:08 AM
(g'hopper), s'mime was punning.

chemistry . . . elementary school

substance abuse . . . high school

(grasshopper)
03-03-2006, 07:11 AM
Hang on a minute. . . .

Chemistry questions in an elementary school . . .
Abuse problems for a counselor . . .

(Bing) the little light just went on.

Good one.

You deserve a rep point for that!

(grasshopper)
03-03-2006, 07:15 AM
Thanks, Reph.

I made the post immediately above before I read your post explaining it.

I was on the right track, though, but still a little slow on the uptake.
Still worth a point, don't you think?

sacredmime
03-04-2006, 11:05 AM
woo hoo! I'll take any rep points that anyone wants to give. I'm still new here, so I don't know what the heck those are. But they sound good. Can I cash them in later for say... a white chocolate chip cookie with macedamia nuts?

KAP
03-05-2006, 05:11 AM
Now if your post had led me to daydreaming about DARK chocolate instead of white, I'd have given you a rep point, too.

Phouka
03-06-2006, 10:28 AM
Yes, I'd love to see the return of sentence diagramming in school. You know, when I was trying to find reference books on diagramming, I called my local grammar school to see if they had any books on the subject. They didn't, of course, and the concept was so foreign to them that they had trouble understanding what I wanted at first.

I latched on a treasure trove of Grammar books from the early 1920s and 30s off eBay, which covered all the diagramming and odd grammar concepts that I never saw in school. I absolutely love them, and I can diagram a sentence with the best of them.

Carmy
03-20-2006, 05:44 AM
Excuse me, but I may be reading this the wrong way.

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."

All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?

"Today I went to the zoo and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours."

I was taught at school that any clause, in the middle of a sentence, that could be taken out and still have the sentence make sense should be offset by commas.

reph
03-20-2006, 06:42 AM
All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?
Yes. See post #3.

poetinahat
03-20-2006, 06:51 AM
Excuse me, but I may be reading this the wrong way.

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."

All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?

"Today I went to the zoo and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours."

I was taught at school that any clause, in the middle of a sentence, that could be taken out and still have the sentence make sense should be offset by commas.

Based on the earlier discussion, there is also an optional comma between "zoo" and "and". Personally, I like having it there.

The comma after the and is a different proposition altogether; it's not mutually exclusive with this optional comma.

maestrowork
03-20-2006, 06:54 AM
I would normally write it this way:

Today I went to the zoo, and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours.

or

Today I went to the zoo and walked around for hours, ignoring the rain.