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Betas: what piques your interest?

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Viridian

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Let's say someone posts a thread on this forum asking for a beta, explaining what their story is about and what they want. What makes you decide to message that writer -- or alternatively, not message them? (Assuming the story is question is in a genre you like and all that good stuff.)

Does the story have to be a certain level of "good"? Or is it the opposite -- do they have to have flaws you know how to fix? Do they have to be someone you already know?

Just wondering! :)
 

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For me, they would have to: be active members; write a genre I not only like, but feel well-versed in so I could provide good feedback; have a concise, well-written summary of the book (if they can't put together a two-paragraph post on a message board, I probably won't be able to slog through 400 manuscript pages of their work); appear to be open to suggestions and constructive criticisms.

That said, I haven't beta'd for anyone on this board, but those would be my requirements if I was going to beta for a stranger. :O)
 

Viridian

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have a concise, well-written summary of the book (if they can't put together a two-paragraph post on a message board, I probably won't be able to slog through 400 manuscript pages of their work)

This has been my problem so far. I'm not actively looking for anyone to beta, but I like to keep an eye on the requests. What ends up turning me off 90% of the time is either the lack of a summary, or a summary that's badly written or completely unhelpful.
 

Maryn

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For me, it has to be someone I've seen around for a while who's been neutral or good to have here; the book's genre has to be something I pleasure read; the logline or basic summary needs to sound interesting and be well-written; there needs to be a suggestion or flat-out statement that the author believes the manuscript is polished and ready to submit (anybody who says they need grammar help, I skip); the post should offer a first chapter or first 50 pp. to see if we mesh; the author says s/he will swap beta reads or promises to do a beta for someone else for each one s/he receives.

Maryn, pretty persnickety
 

buz

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Let's say someone posts a thread on this forum asking for a beta, explaining what their story is about and what they want. What makes you decide to message that writer -- or alternatively, not message them? (Assuming the story is question is in a genre you like and all that good stuff.)

Does the story have to be a certain level of "good"? Or is it the opposite -- do they have to have flaws you know how to fix? Do they have to be someone you already know?

Just wondering! :)

Wellll...

What makes me decide to beta is a combination of things that have nothing to do with the request and things that *do* have to do with the request.

First consideration is whether someone I know and respect is asking me. Closely behind is whether I have time to do it or not.

If the first is true, I will say yes, unless I really really don't have the time.

As far as looking for things to read in this part of the forum, though...well, I don't even look unless I have the time and inclination, generally, so we can discard that, although it's probably the single biggest factor...

Considerations after that:

1) How much I know of the poster and their writing from the site (not necessarily SYW excerpts or whatever; posts count) and how I feel about all that. I'm far less likely to read for an unknown entity than someone I'm at least a little familiar with.

2) The genre and market. I feel awkward and kinda scared about offering to beta MG or children's or something I'm equally unfamiliar with--even if the story sounds interesting, I'll often balk at offering, because I really haven't read anything for that age level since I was that age (with a few exceptions). Likewise, I'm not going to offer on something like erotica or other genres I don't read because I'd be useless.

3) The summary of the book, or link to excerpt on SYW, or some other thing that gives me a decent idea of what the book is like and a brief idea of writing style. I prefer to see a summary or query or something, so I can see if it appeals to me for whatever reason.

As far as whether the book is "good" or not...I really don't know that I could tell without reading the manuscript ;) But I like to see that the author has tried to learn to self-edit to some degree, and I like it if I know that they've received (and given) critique before, so forum participation really helps. ;)

That's all just me though.
 

shadowwalker

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My immediate turn-off is if the author is "passionate" about their writing/story. I've found those to be the most difficult to work with. Otherwise, besides the whole genre thing, I'll work with someone I know has some grasp of the basics, or a stranger if the plot intrigues me - but I always want just the first chapter before making any decision. If the 'relationship' works out for that, it stands a good chance of going the distance.
 

slhuang

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How well I know the poster is the number one criterion. I want to feel like our interaction clicks, like I won't have to tiptoe and offer qualifiers for all of my crits. And I won't know that unless I've interacted with someone.

Genre matters too -- I'll still offer to beta a genre I don't normally read (with disclaimers), but I usually won't offer to beta in a genre or category I mostly dislike. The better I know the poster, the less important the genre is.

I'll usually also look for SYW excerpts to make sure I enjoy the writing style before offering. Again, the better I know the poster, the less important seeing their work is.

I don't think I've ever offered to beta for a person I haven't interacted with previously. *thinks* Nope.

Eta: I just realized I listed the same three things Buz did. Heh.
 
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quicklime

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honestly my biggest pique is getting a sense they want to learn.

Whish isn't as easy as "I want to learn teh rulez," its usually seeing then get their ass knocked into the dirt, and then seeing how well they pick themselves up. Because everybody thinks they want to learn, but that's sort off where the rubber meets the road.

I am fairly flexible with genre, but i don't like the idea of wasting my time on someone who's gonna dismiss anything they don't want to hear.
 

Maryn

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BTW, kudos to us all for "pique." I've had it up to here with inspiring writters who want to peak my intrest.

Maryn, intolerant
 

slhuang

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BTW, kudos to us all for "pique." I've had it up to here with inspiring writters who want to peak my intrest.

Maryn, intolerant

Ya, me too. Although I found out just a few months ago that you "leach" things away and bury the "lede," which was very humbling, so I guess I can't be too much on my high horse about it . . .

~slhuang, also intolerant, and now derailing :D
 

Viridian

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BTW, kudos to us all for "pique." I've had it up to here with inspiring writters who want to peak my intrest.

Hahahaha, yep. Though I'm not ashamed to admit it's one of those words I still look up just in case. I think I've seen it spelled wrong more than I've seen it spelled right and it's affecting my brain.
 

Karen Junker

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Well, as you may know if you have read the "Why I Won't Beta..." thread--I have been much less picky in the past and I've read dozens of whole manuscripts and nearly 100 first chapters for people who did nothing more than post a request (or PM me privately to ask for my help).

*NOW* I try to stick to stories in a genre I read a lot or enjoy reading. I do tend to check and see if the person has posted around here a few times ( I read some of their posts to see if I notice any red flags). I like to see an offer to exchange work (though I don't take many people up on that).

I don't really go by the blurb, because good writers can't always write good blurbs (as anyone who has been to QLH may know).

As a result of becoming more picky, I have found some very good crit partners recently and have read at least one mss that I think has some very exciting potential. There's a tingling at the base of my ribs I get when I first read a mss that is good enough to sell. I love to get that feeling when I read AWer's work. Sometimes I get it when I read a beta request.
 

quicklime

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Ya, me too. Although I found out just a few months ago that you "leach" things away and bury the "lede," which was very humbling, so I guess I can't be too much on my high horse about it . . .

~slhuang, also intolerant, and now derailing :D



*writes off Lisa's many, many critical comments after realizing she's either part Wisconsinite or reading from an ESL perspective
 

quicklime

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Well, as you may know if you have read the "Why I Won't Beta..." thread--I have been much less picky in the past and I've read dozens of whole manuscripts and nearly 100 first chapters for people who did nothing more than post a request (or PM me privately to ask for my help).

*NOW* I try to stick to stories in a genre I read a lot or enjoy reading. I do tend to check and see if the person has posted around here a few times ( I read some of their posts to see if I notice any red flags). I like to see an offer to exchange work (though I don't take many people up on that).

I don't really go by the blurb, because good writers can't always write good blurbs (as anyone who has been to QLH may know).

As a result of becoming more picky, I have found some very good crit partners recently and have read at least one mss that I think has some very exciting potential. There's a tingling at the base of my ribs I get when I first read a mss that is good enough to sell. I love to get that feeling when I read AWer's work. Sometimes I get it when I read a beta request.


I just wanted to quote this because for all the flack maryn got for her "why I won't" thread, most of us use a handful of tells or criteria to decide what we will or won't read. Personally I have not had a bad beta experience. OK, I believe I may have BEEN one, but I have never gotten a piece of work where the work was a disappointment, or the beta was. But I believe that's mostly because I've been picky--I have heard some absolutely awful horror stories, and dodged a few of them BECAUSE I got a bad vibe.

For the OP, everyone is different, but to add my personal tally to the mix: I have offered to beta for one or two people off the beta forum, and it was because I knew them from QLH, and saw a post in the beta forum after that. A few other folks asked me, and I knew of them and felt ok accepting their request and reading for them. A fair number of others sent requests I turned down or sort of dragged out and let die because I HAD serious concerns. So if you're asking what people look for, again, I look for a sense the requester wants to learn. And that they're willing to get knocked around, and bleed a bit, to do it. Doesn't matter what part of the forum, but I don't do unknowns because I've heard so much awful shit, and I realize that doesn't represent every newbie, but I like to have some clue of what I am getting into instead of jumping blind.
 

slhuang

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*writes off Lisa's many, many critical comments after realizing she's either part Wisconsinite or reading from an ESL perspective

Hey, I'm Ayshun. We all know Ayshuns speaka no Engrish. :D

Personally I have not had a bad beta experience. ...

Yeah, me neither -- and I've finished every crit I've started -- and I think it's definitely because I'm picky about whom I'll beta for. And I feel neither the desire nor the responsibility to invite bad experiences by widening that pool of people. I like doing it, but I like doing it for people who'll appreciate it.

Personally I have not had a bad beta experience.
OK, I believe I may have BEEN one
Oh wait . . . right . . . there was that one guy. So precious. Didn't want to hear a single comment on any of his writing that wasn't, "this is the BESTEST and most SPECIALIST thing I have EVER read." Some fucker from Wisconsin. Totally fucking illiterate. Now I avoid him on the forums and when he comes at me moaning for more crits I tell him to eat his dick. :D
 

Little Anonymous Me

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I've only beta'd once on AW, and I had to bow out partway through because of Life Events that didn't leave me with the time the MS deserved (which I still feel awful about). :e2bummed:


LAM's List:

1. Knowing and liking you. I will read outside of my genre if I've seen you around and I have a warm fuzzy for you. Note: warm fuzzies should not be confused with lukewarm squiggles or cold pinpricks. Having a lot of rep points from me is a good hint of my willingness. :tongue

2. Playing nice in SYW. I don't always comment, but I'm reading in QLH and the Fantasy sub-forum almost every single day. Someone who handles criticism well is on my short list. (One small hissy fit immediately followed by apologies will not land you in my black books. We're all human. Lord knows I've kicked and screamed a bit.)

3. I want to see your plot. This doesn't mean a query. If I can see you've got a good plot just from talking to you or from the threads you've started, that's enough for me. But I need to know beforehand you aren't a walking TV Tropes ad.
 

Viridian

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So if you're asking what people look for, again, I look for a sense the requester wants to learn. And that they're willing to get knocked around, and bleed a bit, to do it. Doesn't matter what part of the forum, but I don't do unknowns because I've heard so much awful shit, and I realize that doesn't represent every newbie, but I like to have some clue of what I am getting into instead of jumping blind.

This makes me wonder why someone would ask for a beta in the first place if they're not willing to be criticized. Then again, I have seen quite a few people (not on AbsoluteWrite, haven't been here long enough) who ask for help and then get offended. Though maybe I shouldn't be talking; I don't think I've ever angrily replied to someone giving me critique, but I have been known to sulk quietly.

Speaking of "passionate" writers (@shadowwalker) I once had someone post an excerpt of their work (on a fanfiction site) asking for critique. I pointed out a couple problems and praised them for being a "competent writer". Boy, did he get pissed I called him competent. He was quick to inform me that he was "passionate" about his work and had been writing for years. :tongue Whoops.

Anyway, thanks for the responses so far. Though I'm surprised some of you require excerpts before you'll sign on... what, like on the board? I guess if I ever ask for betas I'll post my first page in the appropriate SYW forum and link to it.
 
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Channy

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Although no one has said out right specifically that one's reluctance to post something in SYW shows an inability to handle criticism or a superiority complex, I just want to offer an opinion of maybe why someone who never posted anything in SYW but asked for a beta (as I myself have done this).

I experienced a 3 beta swap with others here after posting to ask (and my thread was atrocious, I didn't really provide a link to the query, a tag line, I just offered the genre and I think a very brief summary of it. Maybe not even until I got the PMs from people and let them know what they were getting into) and I was completely humbled by the experience. Of course, some people mentioned, maybe I'll get some more replies if I link a thread of mine in SYW (which I hadn't made one yet) or offered a sample of my query (which I hadn't constructed yet) but I was just so overwhelmed with the idea of sharing my work (excited, scared, a little nauseated maybe) that I forgot all these things when making the initial thread.

Now, as to why I had never posted in SYW before, despite being around for over a year now, I am terrified. I can handle sharing (and swapping) with the odd handful of strangers and deal with one-on-one crits, but to lay out a whole chapter/summary/query to the forum and wait for the reaction... it's like bearing your soul to the world.
 

Little Anonymous Me

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Now, as to why I had never posted in SYW before, despite being around for over a year now, I am terrified. I can handle sharing (and swapping) with the odd handful of strangers and deal with one-on-one crits, but to lay out a whole chapter/summary/query to the forum and wait for the reaction... it's like bearing your soul to the world.


That's not an issue for me, as I'm the same way. Throwing my query up in SYW was the hardest thing I've done writing-wise to date, and that's my only writing sample on here. I feel a little ill when I look at the little number that says my thread's gotten over 1,200 views. (Actually, I feel very ill.) But seeing how someone acts when they've gotten criticism is an easy way to see if we'd work well together. And if I can't do that, I'll try and hunt down a thread where tempers flared a bit and see how the person did there.
 

mccardey

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Although no one has said out right specifically that one's reluctance to post something in SYW shows an inability to handle criticism or a superiority complex, I just want to offer an opinion of maybe why someone who never posted anything in SYW but asked for a beta (as I myself have done this).

I've never posted in SYW and I've never critted there either - but that's because I like a lot more face-to-face. I like to be able to see the people I'm talking to. I have beta'd though, for a few people. There are two writers especially whose work I loved to bits.

I think the most irritating thing that can happen is when you send back a beta-report to hear "Oh, yeah, thanks but I've already sent the ms out."

I like beta-reading, don't like critting so much. Oh - and I'd never offer to beta without having a three-chapter look-and-feel. I'm too old and life is too short.

ETA: Sorry - I just realised I didn't answer the topic question. I beta for people whose posts I've really enjoyed, who write in a genre I know I can speak on. Posting history is very important to me in deciding - I like to feel I can at least understand the writer before we begin.
 
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buz

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This makes me wonder why someone would ask for a beta in the first place if they're not willing to be criticized.
Well, a think a lot of people expect to be told stuff like "I think you should tweak this section, add some more detail here, watch the grammar in this bit, etc" and then get hit with something like "I'm not at all interested in your character" or something much more major than they were expecting, which is understandably difficult to take. And then they get upset...;)

Though maybe I shouldn't be talking; I don't think I've ever angrily replied to someone giving me critique, but I have been known to sulk quietly.

Sulking quietly is perfectly acceptable. I mope profusely. :D

Anyway, thanks for the responses so far. Though I'm surprised some of you require excerpts before you'll sign on... what, like on the board? I guess if I ever ask for betas I'll post my first page in the appropriate SYW forum and link to it.

For me personally, it's not a requirement, but it really helps. The basic thing is that I like to have some idea of a) what the author is like and b) what the book is like, and SYW is sort of a shortcut to both. But there are other ways of doing it. Generally posting a lot so that people are familiar with your personality, and providing a good summary or something (or just blabbing about it somewhere on the forum)...as long as I can get a good impression, basically. :) (But that's just me speaking for me, not anyone else.) SYW also has the added bonus of showing how a writer may respond to criticism, which, again, is not *strictly* necessary for me to know, but the more information I have, the better.
 

mccardey

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SYW also has the added bonus of showing how a writer may respond to criticism, which, again, is not *strictly* necessary for me to know, but the more information I have, the better.

Not foolproof, though. I remember once in my very early days here, beta-ing for someone. It was before I realised SYW existed. Apparently the writer had posted an excerpt there, asking for a gentle crit and had received lots of affirmation and gentle crittage. So when I got back with a report that mentioned things like wobbly tenses, a narrative arc that jumped ship half-way through the book, and a rash of apostrophes, I got lots of very cross PMing.

ETA: My favourite of the PMs was the positively Freud-like (that's Clement, not Sigmund, and a rep if you saw what I did there) "Well, No-one Else Has Complained!"
 
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Channy

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That's not an issue for me, as I'm the same way. Throwing my query up in SYW was the hardest thing I've done writing-wise to date, and that's my only writing sample on here. I feel a little ill when I look at the little number that says my thread's gotten over 1,200 views. (Actually, I feel very ill.)

It's frightening, isn't it? Sure, my mss had some issues and wasn't completely polished (but I did feel good about it) I just needed a fresh pair of eyes to look at it all through from beginning to end, and let me know what inconsistencies there were and if things didn't make sense. Not throw up a one off chapter shoot and expect a line by line analysis of why I shouldn't be a writer. :p

I've never posted in SYW and I've never critted there either - but that's because I like a lot more face-to-face. I like to be able to see the people I'm talking to. I have beta'd though, for a few people. There are two writers especially whose work I loved to bits.

I had only one beta irl/face to face which was my sister (who is also a fellow aspiring writer). However, she took so long to even start my mss that I had to give it out to others to get a reaction to it.

I think the most irritating thing that can happen is when you send back a beta-report to hear "Oh, yeah, thanks but I've already sent the ms out."

I like beta-reading, don't like critting so much. Oh - and I'd never offer to beta without having a three-chapter look-and-feel. I'm too old and life is too short.

The odd thing being is, I don't think having two reports is a bad thing. I swapped with three people at once (well, back to back for me, so I had time to read every one of their mss') because I wanted a couple disparaging opinions. If two of the three picked up on the same issues, then obviously it needed addressing. If each had varying opinions of what worked and what didn't, then I lay that to personal tastes and don't take it too personally. But then I go back and try ask them for clarification of those (for the issues that matter, anyway).

However, I try to also have a long lasting relationship with these few betas because I hope to maybe resend them reworked chapters to see if it's better (one of them has already done so for me)... the other two sort of dropped off/lost touch, and I understand that there's stuff going on that they can't, and it's okay. I, luckily so far, have not had a bad beta experience. But again, I've had only the three. (And right now I'm beta-ing for someone else in chapter chunks who tolerates my tardiness sometimes). I don't start a beta and not finish it, I think if you commit, you do so for a reason. So when all of them said things like "If you start reading and it's not your taste, just let me know" it flabbergasts me.

Oh, I've gone on a tangent again.

Well, a think a lot of people expect to be told stuff like "I think you should tweak this section, add some more detail here, watch the grammar in this bit, etc" and then get hit with something like "I'm not at all interested in your character" or something much more major than they were expecting, which is understandably difficult to take. And then they get upset...;)

While there's no reason to take that crit out on the critter (aha), do you know how heartwrenching that is?! When I first handed my mss out, all betas had an issue with two scenes where my MC lashes out, in a way that I had hoped would make her more human and appealing, and all of them said "Why is she doing this? She's so childish? It's not staying within her character. I can't relate to this." You'd think that these people had never been backstabbed before and confronted/punched someone for it. ;)

ETA: My favourite of the PMs was the positively Freud-like (that's Clement, not Sigmund, and a rep if you saw what I did there) "Well, No-one Else Has Complained!"

HAH.
 

mccardey

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The odd thing being is, I don't think having two reports is a bad thing. .

No - not two reports. I mean the writer had finished the project, called for betas - and then sent the ms out on sub while the betas were still reading. And having done that, responded to the beta reports by saying "Oh yeah, thanks - I won't need that after all. Sorry."

That particular writer isn't here now, so I don't know how submissions worked. I think not as well as was hoped.
 

Mutive

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I generally work with people I've worked with before. A lot of the time, they're someone who's betaed my short stories (or a novel, or query), or they're someone I've betaed, who throws out "if you ever need something betaed, come to me..." Because I don't want short term beta relationships, where I beta their novel and they vanish. (Or vice versa.) I want long term writing partnerships, where we both improve together.

This isn't 100% tit for tat. I've read and critiqued far more novels than I've had critiqued. (And some people have read my stuff who I haven't critiqued, too.) But I'm rarely interested in someone that I think has no interest in helping others.
 
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