Bad sales in self-publishing is because readers are snobs

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Maxinquaye

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This maybe should have been put in the 'bad things writers say' thread, but it was so mind-blowing that I think it deserves its own thread.

Palamedes PR did a survey of self-published authors, and the results were, in summary:

http://www.palamedes.co.uk/new-book-pr-research-published/
New research conducted by the book PR specialists, Palamedes PR, has revealed that nearly two-thirds of self-published authors are convinced they have what it takes to become the ‘next’ JK Rowling – but blame a lack of financial success on consumers’ “snobbish” attitude towards the practice.

So, when the self-published writers who decried the gate-keeper function of mainstream publishers for not being able to appreciate true art and genious now say that readers too can't appreciate the same, where does that leave those self-publishers?

Does this 'publish the slush pile offering' actually poison the well for self publishing? Are writers too full of themselves? Is it vindication for the agent system? Or are the self-publishers right?

What think you?
 
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chompers

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I think this is why self-published books even had its bad reputation to begin with -- because a lot of stuff out there IS bad.

Some stories though, I think are good but they aren't considered marketable through the traditional method, so it's a shame that they've had to self-publish and need to jump over the hurdle of the prejudice.
 
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shaldna

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Soooooo, nothing to do with bad writing, shoddy art and non-existent editing then? Because that's what seems to make up about 2 thirds of self published books.

And bear in mind I say this as someone who has self published and trade published.
 

Marian Perera

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Apparently 60% of the authors polled believed that it was readers' unwillingness to "give them a chance" that ended their dreams of bestsellerdom.

There's always a bottleneck. Always. Take out the agents and editors and that bottleneck simply shifts to the readers instead.

And with the massive surge in the number of self-published titles, readers 1. may well be overwhelmed by the quantity (if not the quality) 2. have a lot to pick and choose from, so they can select only the cream of the crop if they like. If it's their choice not to buy poorly-written books...well, that's one aspect of self-publishing authors cannot have complete control over.

I get occasional requests in my email to review self-published books, and the latest one described the book as "a science fiction opaque autobiographical novel". Without even reading it, I can tell it's not something I should spend time on.
 

GeorgeK

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Does this 'publish the slush pile offering' actually poison the well for self publishing? Are writers too full of themselves? Is it vindication for the agent system? Or are the self-publishers right?

What think you?

Lowering standards has never helped any industry.
 

quicklime

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Apparently 60% of the authors polled believed that it was readers' unwillingness to "give them a chance" that ended their dreams of bestsellerdom.

.


so....yeah. There's sort of the problem, isn't it?

Even if we assume self-pub Book X is phenomenal, if this belief is correct then that would seem to suggest they're better off facing "the dreaded gatekeeper." Because even if the gatekeeper (not sure where one becomes a Gatekeeper, I keep checking the local Craigslist but they have almost no new postings related to Gatekeeping, Controlling The Masses, Elitism,' or any of the other keywords I've tried...) is a hurdle, you just swap for a different hurdle, which may be even harder to get over.

a lot of folks who want to self-pub, sadly, have no plan to be seen beyond "if you build it, they will come." That's a piss-poor strategy to rely on in ANY business. And has nothing to do with "reader snobbery."
 

Christyp

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I have to admit I don't tend to read many self pubbed books, but not because I avoid them. Having said that, there was a series I began reading recently which I was convinced HAD to have come from one of the big houses. Nope. Just learned she is an Indie. I don't tend to look at the publishers when I buy book, only the premise and occasionally reviews (won't buy a book with primarily 1 or 2 star reviews).

Other than that little nugget, I think it's not so much reader snobbiness as it is marketing and promotions. I find books on referrals, recommendations, or a known to me author. I've devoured books as long as I can remember and I know I've had to have loved several authors who self pubbed through the years and just didn't know it.
 

jjdebenedictis

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If you read the article closely, the data doesn't necessarily paint self-published authors as being quite as delusional as the intro to that article implies.

Only 38% of the writers said they were as good as authors such as JK Rowling, Lee Child, John Grisham and EL James--but what does that number even mean?

If you ask me whether I'm as good a writer as J. K. Rowling, I'll say no, but if you ask me whether I'm as good a writer as E. L. James, I'll say yes. In fact, I'll say I think I'm better.

So is it 38% who thought they were as good as all those writers--or 38% who thought they were as good as one or more of those writers? Because how that question was phrased, and how the data was analysed, makes a huge difference.

The rest of the statistics don't seem too outlandish to me, either. The authors were disappointed in their sales. They think more publicity could have helped. They think the public's lack of willingness to try self-published books probably hurt their sales. There's nothing in those opinions I find surprising or delusional.

78% of them thinking they could have hit Amazon's bestseller lists with "the right professional support" is probably a big wad of wishful thinking, but it's not an unusual belief, either. Trade published authors occasionally grouse about their publisher not giving them the support they need to hit the bestseller lists (whether that's true or not.)

Given that article is written by a PR firm who apparently reps self-published authors (see the lines at the bottom of the article), I view their results with a great deal of skepticism. I think they're fishing for clients and massaging the data in order to skew it into a narrative that serves their purposes.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, n'est pas?
 
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OJCade

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The thing is, when I'm reading, I don't want to be a sort of crowd-sourced gatekeeper. I don't want to be the one sorting and sifting to find something good to read. There are some wonderful self-published books out there, but in the end it's just plain easier for me to find a book that's gone through someone else's gatekeeping - something published by a reputable company and in front of me at a book shop.
 
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kaitie

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Having said that, there was a series I began reading recently which I was convinced HAD to have come from one of the big houses. Nope. Just learned she is an Indie.

[Spanish accent] You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. [/Spanish accent]
 

kaitie

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If you read the article closely, the data doesn't necessarily paint self-published authors as being quite as delusional as the intro to that article implies.

Only 38% of the writers said they were as good as authors such as JK Rowling, Lee Child, John Grisham and EL James--but what does that number even mean?

If you ask me whether I'm as good a writer as J. K. Rowling, I'll say no, but if you ask me whether I'm as good a writer as E. L. James, I'll say yes. In fact, I'll say I think I'm better.

So is it 38% who thought they were as good as all those writers--or 38% who thought they were as good as one or more of those writers? Because how that question was phrased, and how the data was analysed, makes a huge difference.

The rest of the statistics don't seem too outlandish to me, either. The authors were disappointed in their sales. They think more publicity could have helped. They think the public's lack of willingness to try self-published books probably hurt their sales. There's nothing in those opinions I find surprising or delusional.

78% of them thinking they could have hit Amazon's bestseller lists with "the right professional support" is probably a big wad of wishful thinking, but it's not an unusual belief, either. Trade published authors occasionally grouse about their publisher not giving them the support they need to hit the bestseller lists (whether that's true or not.)

Given that article is written by a PR firm who apparently reps self-published authors (see the lines at the bottom of the article), I view their results with a great deal of skepticism. I think they're fishing for clients and massaging the data in order to skew it into a narrative that serves their purposes.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, n'est pas?

On one hand, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. On the other, I think there is a tendency among certain people to assume that any fault is not their own. And the fact is, there are certainly people who go into self-publishing because their work was rejected by agents and publishers and rather than recognizing that the reason was that their writing ability wasn't yet at a professional level, they decided it was because publishers won't consider an unknown author, and they're only looking for bestsellers, and so on.

I think in some ways, that skews the self-publishing crowd a bit. There are a lot of people who externalize lack of success, and that makes sense because internalizing it means recognizing that the fault lies in yourself, and that sucks. It's hard. I imagine a lot of the people that believed their lack of success with publishers was completely external also believe that their lack of success with readers is external. "Clearly the reader is the problem, not me."

Bear in mind, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most self-publishers. I'm just saying that you'll probably have many self-publishers who fit this description because the reason they self-published was externalization of problems.

Where this becomes and issue, and granted it's a personal issue, not a generalized one, is that if you always externalize problems, it means you can't improve. The author who can't say, "Maybe there is a problem with my writing" can't learn to write better. Learning a skill requires recognizing your faults and working to improve them. If you're able to do that, you will likely one day be successful. If you can't, you never will.

Honestly, though, I imagine that as more people try at self-publishing and don't become bestsellers, the number of people doing it will start to go do. That's just my speculation, but I imagine it's true. I think you'll start seeing less evangelizing and more honest explanations of what success requires, and more people working hard to do it well.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Somehow I don't think uploading a file to Amazon counts as 'managing production of your book yourself'. Somehow.

I also suspect a lot of readers don't know and don't care whether a book is trade published or self-published. They want a good read and they're looking for books that, for them, satisfy that criterion, wherever they may be found. And that's all there is to it, really.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I think in some ways, that skews the self-publishing crowd a bit. There are a lot of people who externalize lack of success, and that makes sense because internalizing it means recognizing that the fault lies in yourself, and that sucks. It's hard. I imagine a lot of the people that believed their lack of success with publishers was completely external also believe that their lack of success with readers is external. "Clearly the reader is the problem, not me."

Bear in mind, I'm not saying that this is true of all or even most self-publishers. I'm just saying that you'll probably have many self-publishers who fit this description because the reason they self-published was externalization of problems.
Oh, I agree completely that self-published authors probably skew toward the "No one understands my genius!" end of the spectrum.

But the article claims two-thirds of self-published authors think they could become the next JK Rowling.

That just seems way too high to me, and then when you read the article, the number of self-published writers thinking they're on par with Rowling or some other high-selling author abruptly drops to only 38%--nowhere close to two-thirds.

There's just something hinky about their math and the way they're wording things. I do believe there are some badly self-deluding self-published authors--but I don't believe two-thirds of them are that way.
 

Christyp

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elindsen

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That just seems way too high to me, and then when you read the article, the number of self-published writers thinking they're on par with Rowling or some other high-selling author abruptly drops to only 38%--nowhere close to two-thirds.
Didn't read the article because I'm on my phone. However, I wonder what the stats are of self-pub works being first works or even first drafts? Every newbie writer thinks their book is the next (insert bestseller in genre). My first book I thought would make it big. But thankfully, those Gatekeepers existed and stopped the book from hitting anything. With self-publishing, you lose that. And most newbies have friend, husband, mom, ect. read book, possibly even first draft. When mom loves it, they think it's golden. So when readers don't agree and fail to soothe the ego, maybe those self-pubbers do think it's the readers.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm sure there are some good self published titles out there, but barring writers I know personally, I'm one of those snobbish readers who gravitates towards trade published books.

1. Trade published books screen their submissions rigorously. No doubt they miss some good stories and pass some that aren't so great, but overall, there's a certain minimum level of quality they're shooting for. Writers are notorious for lacking objectivity of their own work, so the fact that you think your novel's wonderful doesn't mean many will agree.

2. Trade publishers edit the novels they sell. Not always perfectly, but they're not just selling drafts of novels, the way some independent authors are. Self-pubbed authors can write, rewrite, workshop and polish their stories, and some do pay for pro editing etc., but many don't. This shows.

3. I have a huge backlog to read of trade-published books by authors I know, authors who have been recommended to me, or authors who look interesting to me. These have a reasonable chance of being something I will find entertaining, or at least learn something from reading. Why would I want to take some of my precious reading time to sift through a vast pile of self-pubbed dreck to find a handful or high-quality works? If I ever run out of trade-published books, then maybe I'll start looking at other titles.

4. I'm not broke, so while I wonder if the trade-published e-books on Amazon really need to be ten or more bucks each, I can still afford it. The lure of one and two dollar books just doesn't draw me in for its own sake, though if someone I trusts points me towards a bargain, I might go for it.

So independently published authors are really surprised by these facts? They didn't realize that they were up against this situation?
 
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Marian Perera

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I'm sure there are some good self published titles out there, but barring writers I know personally, I'm one of those snobbish readers who gravitates towards trade published books.

Same here. If I know a writer through AW and their posts read well and they've self-published something I'm interested in, I'll check out the sample available on Amazon. Or if a trade-published writer whose work I enjoy decides to self-publish, I'll try that.

Otherwise, I'm past the stage where I thought it would be interesting to read slush.
 

gingerwoman

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This maybe should have been put in the 'bad things writers say' thread, but it was so mind-blowing that I think it deserves its own thread.

Palamedes PR did a survey of self-published authors, and the results were, in summary:

http://www.palamedes.co.uk/new-book-pr-research-published/


So, when the self-published writers who decried the gate-keeper function of mainstream publishers for not being able to appreciate true art and genious now say that readers too can't appreciate the same, where does that leave those self-publishers?

Does this 'publish the slush pile offering' actually poison the well for self publishing? Are writers too full of themselves? Is it vindication for the agent system? Or are the self-publishers right?

What think you?
It doesn't really muddy the well because some people are making a lot of money self publishing and then there are a lot of other people that aren't making money, many of whom it seems unfortunately, didn't realize that it was going to be just as easy to be rejected by the public as rejected by the "gate keepers".
No online bookstore that I know specifically marks books as self published and many self publishers put their own made up company name on their books so it's not really people not buying books because they are self published. The most likely reason for no one buying your boo,k but your friends is that no one knows it exists.
I saw one guy on yahoo answers complaining that he paid an assisted self publishing service to publish his book, but that then he actually had to search for his book on Amazon because (shock) they weren't promoting it on the front page. lol
It's like that quote from The Fight Club “We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. (and JK Rowlings) But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.”
Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
 

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So independently published authors are really surprised by these facts? They didn't realize that they were up against this situation?

Perhaps not, given they were surrounded by people all parrotting the line that the gatekeepers were the problem. Some of them came up against harsh reality on Goodreads, where they discovered that the reading public can be much, much ruder than the gatekeepers ever were....
 

bearilou

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Wait...what happened to the reasoning that most readers don't care who the publisher is as long as it's a good book?

eta: And if having some standards in my book reading makes me a snob?

Well, okaythen! I'm a snob! But attempting to emotional blackmail me with names they think will hurt me doesn't work so...move along, please.

son of eta: If the biggest selling point of self-publishing themselves is total and complete control over their work, how did these self-published authors not realize at some point that also meant marketing and publicity? Were they asleep during that part of the lecture that that was the toughest part of it? That they would have to do it themselves? And that it was going to cost them money in some manner if it's going to be effective? That being a self-publisher meant they were a self-employed/business-owner now and all that comes with running their own business?
 
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gothicangel

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Next to my bed I have a pile of [trade published] books in my 'to read' list, three of them of 1000-pagers, and award winners. I don't need to go trawling through self-published books to find good reading material.

And I'm with bearilou, if that makes me a snob then so be it.
 

PulpDogg

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Oh is it "lets crap on self publishing" week again?
 

usuallycountingbats

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I read/buy pretty much exclusively on the kindle - and it's an old school black and white keyboard kindle. So I generally have no idea who has published a book and whether or not it is self-published. In fact until I started using AW, it wasn't even something which really occurred to me - and I'm well-educated and widely read. I suspect therefore that I'm not alone in that.

What I have noticed is the following:
1. If something is in the best selling paid novels, that doesn't automatically mean it has been through gatekeepers who will ensure it is a well written book. I bought something from the top ten paid, which had a slew of 5* reviews, and it is beyond awful. Not awful as in I didn't get on with the story, but awful as in I find it hard to believe it has ever seen an editor - characters changing name, spellings of names changing, dire plot, awful writing.
2. If something is in the best selling free, it will likely be better if the author has other books out which are for sale at market rate (i.e. pounds not pence). Ditto if something has a cover price in the pence not pounds range. They're trying to hook you in. (And it worked, damn you Stephen Leather).

My approach now is still not to check whether it's trade or self-published, but to abide by a set of rules which mean I am generally happier with what I end up reading.

Much like when I visit art galleries, I don't want to look at something which I think I could have done myself, given that I have all the artistic talent of the average brick. Likewise, I don't want to read a book which makes me think that I could have written that, and likely done a better job. So does that mean I'm a snob? Probably, yes, and I don't apologise for wanting to read something which seems like it was written by someone literate. I've read some really good self-published stuff, and I hope I will continue to find it.
 
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shadowwalker

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Maybe it's a case of SPs trying to deal with why all that "All you have to do is..." cheerleading isn't all they had to do.
 
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