What would happen to an old ship?

Look at what happens to planes in scrapyards instead of ships. See Aircraft boneyard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaShips are subject to water and wave action that is incredibly destructive. Plus ships are made from plain steel instead of the alloys that would be used in a space vehicle.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Schilcote said:

What obviously visible effect might the passage of time have on the hull? Would the craft still be operable after that long with only minor maintenance? What would fail first? How long would it take to get such a craft from a 'storage mode' to being ready to sail?

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Great research questions. You get the spaceship and I'll find a cave and we can find out together!

Seriously. Nothing has been mothballed and brought back after 100 years. Certainly not a spaceship. And why would you store it underground rather than in space? No atmosphere in space to cause deterioration. Lot more space (pun intended) to store it in too.

Jeff

You'd have to watch out for debris and stuff smacking holes in it though.

If it's in an underground bunker then presumably it's been spared weathering the elements. Basically old vessels tend to get cannibalized for parts and then sold for scrap. If it's been a century I doubt that there'd be any proprietary technology concerns so it might even have antique weapons and the average buyer would consider the whole thing scrap. Presumably if you have just the right tinker/mechanic / engineer and source of old parts you might get it space worthy. If you have the bucks you could update it.

Maybe those old ships had AI's that could even try to teach you how to fix it? Old parts...schmartz..This thing is equipped with a 3-D Printer and the schematics! It must have been made before Halliburton took over spacefaring

mirandashell said:

You'd have to watch out for debris and stuff smacking holes in it though.

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The last spaceship graveyard I visited had debris-deflectors that ran on solar energy.

Your questions have no real-life answers. There's no research into your question available, not even in Google. Do you really want us to make up your story line and details?

Jeff

WeaselFire said:

The last spaceship graveyard I visited had debris-deflectors that ran on solar energy.

Your questions have no real-life answers. There's no research into your question available, not even in Google. Do you really want us to make up your story line and details?

Jeff

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Ermmm... I understand the sarcasm but it's a genuine real life problem for satellites and what not.

Satellites are designed to work until either the electronics fries up because there was enough cumulative cosmic rays going through it, or the solar panels are no longer efficient enough to juice it up.

A spaceshipe hangered in space could still be in some working order after 100 years, modulo some of the 'spacionics' (space avionics).

That same spaceship hangered the same way old airplanes are kept - in a desertic area (ex: Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson, Arizona) - could last 50ish years and still be operational.

Anything else is a function of construction materials, environment, exposure to elements and critters, etc.

-cb

Schilcote said:

I realize nothing's been stored for that long in reality, but surely there's been studies looking into how long an aircraft carrier can continue functioning under extreme conditions? Or museums that have kept ships or parts of ships indoors for long periods of time?

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You might want to look up the histories of the US Battleships of WWII. Especially the Iowa and the Missouri. They (and I think two others) were mothballed sometime after WWII. They were reactivated in the late 1980's to early 1990's. Maybe the Iowa stayed active into the 2000's?

Anyway, the US Navy has a facility unofficially called "The Mothball Fleet." Near San Francisco, I believe. Suisun Bay? I think they're getting slowly scrapped. The four big US Battleships (Iowa Class) were part of that fleet until reactivated.

Here's an intriguing photo story about The Mothball Fleet from the UK's Daily Mail.

Schilcote said:

What happens to lubricants over that kind of timescale? What happens to paint that's been on a piece of metal for a hundred years? Fuel? Other consumables? What effect would dust have on the ship's innards?

Basically, what would the thing end up looking like?

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Lubricants are drained from a vessel sent to mothballs. Fuel, too. If any power is needed, it's fed from the facility (i.e. shore power). I think the Daily Mail article will give you some insight into how these ships might look after a hundred years. They've been in a sea atmosphere for 60 years, some of them.

But also look up the reactivation of the Iowa-class battleships.

I'm not convinced it's a good comparison between seafaring and space-faring ships. Sea vessels are build to withstand salt and water, space vessels need to withstand heat and pressure. They'll be built differently and from different materials.

Cath said:

I'm not convinced it's a good comparison between seafaring and space-faring ships. Sea vessels are build to withstand salt and water, space vessels need to withstand heat and pressure. They'll be built differently and from different materials.

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That's very likely true. But if the spaceship is sitting in some kind of facility, attended by people, it's in an atmosphere, which would be outside its intended purpose (at least in a continuous mothball situation).

I think it's close enough.

Google Maps will give you a nice look at the ships in Suisan Bay.

Google Earth can show you some cool info on space junk.

Schilcote said:

What would happen to a ship about the size and complexity of an aircraft carrier that's been 'mothballed' for a hundred years or so? It's a spaceship in this particular case, but I'm presuming modern seafaring vessels would be an adequate reference.

It's being held in an underground hangar, and while there are people trying to preserve and tinker with it, they don't really have the money or manpower to keep it in the condition they might if it was being actively used. As I've mentioned, it's been sitting around for about a hundred years in this state.

What obviously visible effect might the passage of time have on the hull? Would the craft still be operable after that long with only minor maintenance? What would fail first? How long would it take to get such a craft from a 'storage mode' to being ready to sail?

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It would most likely be scrapped. Sent somewhere for dismantling. I know in the UK most ships etc go to Portsmouth where they have the facilities to do it.

I know that in Belfast we have had a couple of ships recently - you should look up the SS Nomadic and it's story, and the SS Caroline.

Oxidation effects different metals in different ways. Copper turns green, silver tarnishes, and iron rusts. Within certain parameters, weight doesn't matter in building a ship. Weight is vital in a space vehicle. Hence a space vehicle will use high-grade alloys designed to minimize weight. Ships use cheap steel. A ship on dry land will rust and corrode from the moisture in the air. An airplane will be ideally stored in a dry environment, but will corrode in markedly different ways.

Look up photos of airplanes in scrapyards and ships in ghost fleets. Markedly different ways of corroding.

Ships in mothball fleets and airplanes in scrap fleets are divested of anything useful as time goes on. If there's money to be made in taking it off and using it someplace else, someone will.

Ships are stored in or near salt water. Corrosion from water and salt in incredibly lethal to metal. A lot of work on any ship is chipping rust and painting. It's a constant process. Museum ships require a lot of work to keep up, and every few years need multi-million dollar refits. If you figure keeping an aircraft carrier in the water as a museum you're looking at about a million a year average for keeping the thing floating.

You might want to look into the requirements for having the space shuttles in your museum.

But much more, look at airplane scrapyards. The pictures will tell you the tale of how aluminum and other alloys are effected by time.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

There are two things you can model this on.

1. Mothballed ships - Large ships tend to deteriorate quickly if not regularly maintained. We're talking about the routine daily maintenance performed by the ship's crew here just to keep ahead of rust and corrosion.

I had a private tour of the Battleship U.S.S. Missouri with the engineer in charge of the conservation/restoration project a few years ago. At that time the ship had been out of service for about 10 years and open as a museum for three or four.

He told me, "This is still officially part of the mothball fleet but there's no way it could ever re-enter service. These ships start to decay right away and at this point it would be easier and much cheaper to build a new one."

This is because ships are exposed to the elements and especially to seawater which is very damaging over time.


2. The other example is an "aircraft boneyard" like the one run by the U.S. military in Arizona.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/309th_Aerospace_Maintenance_and_Regeneration_Group

The difference is that these aircraft are kept in a dry environment, without the corrosive effects of saltwater and high humidity. The aircraft are also smaller than a ship which allows them to be essentially "shrink wrapped" for preservation.

The process is to drain all fluids (fuel, hydralics, oil, etc) seal all openings, and then cover the aircraft.

The aircraft can be stored for years or decades this way. If desired a specific aircraft can be unsealed, inspected, and returned to service after a reconditioning process. (More is involved then just taking off the wrap and fueling her up, but it's only possible at all because the aircraft was carefully prepped ahead of time).

For a large spaceship I'd presume a combination of both approaches would work in the story. Realistically the hull might not be completely covered. If the craft needs to be on the the planet, as opposed to in space, then storing it in a non-humid environment would be best.

I'd expect all entrances, hatches, etc., to be sealed and all systems powered down. If there is the equivilant of fuel, fluids, etc, they should be removed.

Depending on the tech they could possibly spray the entire outer hull with a preservative if you want to go that route. It would be an undertaking, but not as much as building the ship in the first place.

If nothing else, they could shrink wrap any smaller craft used with the ship and seal off certain areas, like the bridge, under plastic, etc.

With all the preservation techniques "restarting" such a ship should be an undertaking. I'd expect it to take considerable time to remove the preservation, repower the systems, test them, refuel and rearm, etc. Depending on manpower and resources spent it could take years.

I'm a big fan of urban exploration and there's two blogs I follow that might help you out.

Three California photographers snuck aboard the Ghost Fleet of Suisun Bay and photographed the hell out of the place.
http://scotthaefner.com/beyond/mothball-fleet-ghost-ships/

And few years ago a UK explorer that goes by the handle Silentuk sneaked on board the much smaller British version of their ghost fleet
http://www.silentuk.com/?p=3985

As someone who grew up on the water and spent my fair time in ships I would say the two biggest mistakes sci-fi makes when it comes to ship is space and functionality. I look at Star Trek and see these big massive ships with these big massive rooms and endless hallways, and I suppose it makes sense because they have this magical no-money economy, but everything on a ship has to justify space.

The other thing I think you'd have to work on is making the ship feel obsolete. The "Get the old girl out of moth balls and lets go," plot is is a trope in SF/F, but has a huge place in my heart, and there's totally room to do it again, do it well enough and I'll read it.

One question I have, not really related to your original point, but one I think is worth raising:

Why is your ship being mothballed on the surface of a planet? It would make a great deal more sense if she were mothballed in some kind of planetary orbit.

As it is, I have to imagine that the energy required to boost a spaceship the size of an aircraft carrier into orbit would probably be considered not worth it for a 100 year old, thoroughly obsolete vessel.

Not to mention the risks involved with getting it out of orbit and onto the planet 100 years ago.

I have no idea why it has to be underground; it makes more sense,and would be more logical, to me, for it to be mothballed in orbit.

Just my $0.02.

Maybe you could work it into your story that it could have been stored in some type of preservation containment field so nothing degenerated?

I know as far as military and industrial electrical and electronics go(my field), if they sit off for even a few weeks, a lot of times you have parts go bad that have to be replaced on start up. The best situation for electronic and electrical systems usually is to have as little down time as possible for this reason.

At any rate, I think they would need spare parts and a week or two minimum of getting everything back online and running. A lot of that would depend on your story's universe, time frame, and technology level.

However, I think having to run without *this system* or having to force a part to work where it didn't fit or "MacGuyvering" something, or even sending out an expedition to trade for or obtain the part by other means could be a really cool addition to any sci fi plot.

You might consider looking at the problems of actual spacecraft:

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2007/11may_locad3/

Mold, water, dust and other issues were a big problem on Mir and now on the ISS. The picture of the fungus on the ISS is quite illuminating, and it's only 20 years old.

CetiAlphaVI said:

However, I think having to run without *this system* or having to force a part to work where it didn't fit or "MacGuyvering" something, or even sending out an expedition to trade for or obtain the part by other means could be a really cool addition to any sci fi plot.

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Maybe they could fix it with duct tape.

Schilcote said:

What would happen to a ship about the size and complexity of an aircraft carrier that's been 'mothballed' for a hundred years or so? It's a spaceship in this particular case, but I'm presuming modern seafaring vessels would be an adequate reference.

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Almost certainly not. Seafaring ships on Earth are subject to weathering, both from the water in which they are berthed and from atmosphere. No amount of "mothballing" totally protects against those influences.

A spaceship, docked at some kind of space station? Not much happens to it. Radiation from a "sun", if it's in an orbit around such a star, might affect things like electronic components, but such components might be removed or shielded in a long-dormant vessel.

caw

60 Minutes did a segment about the ship breakers of Bangladesh. You can see it here.

You could do what they did with a number of smaller ships--sink it to use as a habitat for fish. For the space variety, strip it of usable materials and land it on a planet for the native animal life to use as a shelter.

Some random thoughts ...

It might make a difference whether the ship was meant to fly in an atmosphere or not. We tend to think of all spaceships as if they go from land to sky to space. But a more realistic proposition is that some of the larger spaceships would never land. They would be built in space and spend all of their time in space. Smaller ships would be used to ferry people to and from these larger ships. After all, why go to all the extra hassle of making a spaceship work in an atmosphere if you don't need to?

Then we might think about what environments the spaceship was designed to operate in. If it was built for harsh environments then I'd imagine that it would get pretty tough paint. Think the Nostromo from Alien or a dropship from Starship Troopers. On the other hand, if it's a consular ship on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan, I'd expect gleaming white paintwork which wouldn't last so well in storage. And don't even think about the gleaming paintjob on those pointy Naboo ships.

Many WW2 jeeps are still going strong. Civilian cars from the same era usually aren't - unless they have received better than average care.

What is the ship used for when it's not in storage? If it's built for long journeys with the crew in hypersleep then a hundred years is barely the blink of an eye. On the other hand, if we are punching our way through hyperspace we might have a bit more built-in obsolescence.

How far in the future are we? If we are in the far future we might have everlasting materials and self-cleaning, self-repairing ships.

One odd consequence of mothballing tech might be that its technology might get out of date. Didn't the space shuttle use very out of date computer chips that nobody was making any more?

Any rats in your storage facility? Nibbling away at wires perhaps?

Like others I'm not so sure about the analogy with existing ships. It might be better to think through how the spaceship would work, and extrapolate from there.