Are rainbow casts bad?

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Missus Akasha

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NaNoWri is literally around the corner. I have changed what story I am going to write like ten times. Now I have officially settled on one story idea. It's a fantasy story heavily inspired by one of the greatest pieces of child literature. I am planning it out. Creating character profiles. Though there is one main character, there are three secondary characters who basically get just as much screentime in the book and are important.

My main character is a white boy who has a 7-year-old biracial (white/black) sister from one of his mother's later marriages. This is the first time I have ever written a white guy as my main character. White guys always as a secondary character in my stories. I normally write black female characters as the leads. However, I wanted to do an experiment.

So I have a:
A British-American white guy (British mother, American father)
A dark-skinned British girl of African descent
A Korean-Russian guy (not half white Russian/Korean, but he was born and raised in Russia by Korean parents who were born and raised in Russia. Yes, they do exist there!)
Quebec Cree girl

The world they are basically kidnapped into is filled with talking and walking animals aside from a handful of characters who are appear to be human or are actually human. Even then those characters will look of different races.

I am very tired of books with all white characters. I know it isn't really the fault of the authors. I know they are probably writing what they know or are too scared to write a character outside of their own race in fear of criticism or offending someone. I am not scared. Maybe it's because I've always been in the minority being a black female living in the South. I embrace genuine diversity in YA books.

However, in a book market where the majority of all main characters are white, are rainbow casts too much? How much diversity is too much diversity?

Please talk me out of having adding a Nigerian boy from the Czech Republic (Yes, they exist!) trying to rescue his Roma girlfriend or the half-white Australian/Maori girl from New Zealand who is a ruthless and skilled killer. I don't think I'll be able to stop. I have no self control.
 
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London89

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I would love to see more diversity with regards to the sex and race of all story characters - in literature and film/TV. I think the more people start diversifying their characters the more the readers/audience will become accustomed to it, to the point that it becomes the norm, and - hopefully - white male protagonists no longer control the monopoly...

So, (in my opinion) go for it! :D


...Although be aware that this probably wont be considered 'commercial.'

And as for people only writing what they know -- get to know! It's our job! :Headbang: The same way that male authors write about female characters, and vice versa, or about characters of a different age or social-economic background than themselves, you can write about characters of a different race to yourself. :gaah Rant over!
 

JulianneQJohnson

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In any group, there tends to be a dominant race/culture. Then there might be a person or two that differs. That's not prejudice, that's humanity's tendency to flock with birds of a feather. There is nothing at all wrong with having a rainbow cast, but I cannot help but think of commercials that are "trying too hard." For example, Oh look! It's the white girl, the black girl, and the Asian girl, and they've all gotten together to talk about feminine hygiene!
I guess what I'm trying to say in my "I've only had one cup of coffee this morning" way, is that you should try to walk that fine line between realistic, and trying too hard.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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What JulianneQJohnson said. Or the various adverts aimed at teens trying to do a 'one of each'.

Though I'd like to add that there are plenty of books out there where the MCs are barely described at all. The reader often makes assumptions, based partly on lack of cues the MC is non-white, but also the assumption that 'non-whites' must have 'non-white names' or not live in the suburbs or what have you. Basically, without explicit description (and even then, sometimes) the reader is bound to 'default' unless it involves a degree of 'stereotyping' of some sort throughout. That's where I think 'pick one or two' is probably more effective than trying to include 'everyone'.

It partly depends on where the story is set though. Such a diverse range is a lot more believable in a large, cosmopolitan city or a tourist spot than a small town somewhere remote. Having said that, afaik, an author can get away with being more 'heavy handed' with younger audiences.
 

Missus Akasha

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The funny thing is I have Asian friends and plenty of white friends and we always get together and have a good time. I have friends of lots of races and they are friends with each other. We hang out, get drunk, and do all those things early 20-somethings do. So for me, having a diverse cast of characters is realistic. Writing about rainbow casts is something that I know.

Plus, they don't know each other prior to the story starting. They are basically forced to go to this fantasy world and meet each other after dire circumstances are revealed.

I understand "trying too hard", but it returns to the question of how much diversity is too much? If you say that a simple commercial of a white girl, a black girl, and an Asian girl is could be deemed as "trying too hard" then the commercial be more accepting if it was two black girls and an asian girl or two white girls and a black girl? Is that the right amount of diversity or is that still "trying too hard"?

That is my question. That is my dilemma.

I get that this story most definitely isn't "commercial". People would probably say the story is unrealistic. Well, it kind of is considering it takes place in a fantasy world that defies natural logic and understanding of what we think and how we do things in the human world. It has talking and walking-on-two-feet animals, lol.

However, I can counter and say what is unrealistic is novels and TV shows with entirely white casts and no diversity in sight but it is deemed as "acceptable", "relatable", and "realistic". If that is what "commercial" is then I don't think I would want my book labeled as such.
 

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I struggle with this every single book I write--in terms of ethnicity, but also sexuality and disability, and all combinations thereof. Double and triple minorities abound.

Examples:
1) The book in my sig has a disabled Mexican-American protag and a disabled, queer WoC protag; important secondary characters include protag #1's Mexican-American family--who identify as Native/Nahua--a fat, queer WoC, and a disabled MoC.
2) In my previous WIP, I had two protags with albinism--one a CSA survivor, the other part Latina and queer.
3) In my current WIP, my MC is an autistic black girl with a trans sister, plus several other characters who are PoC/queer/disabled/some combination thereof.

I feel continually conflicted. On one hand, we don't see nearly enough minority characters, and particularly protagonists, and I want fiercely to be part of the solution rather than the problem. Straight, white, and abled is not the Default Human Being with minority accessories simply tacked on. One kind of person should not be considered normal, with everyone else being an outlier and requiring justification.

On the other hand, I'm starting to feel increasingly self-conscious about writing what I do and sharing it with others. I can already see people thinking, "Oh, of COURSE this character is queer, of COURSE that one's trans, oh sure, interracial lesbian parents, and this and that and . . ." and that's where the trying-too-hard fear comes in.

That fear goes hand-in-hand with the fear of appropriation. I feel extra worried about writing minority groups I don't belong to. I don't want to get it wrong, either in terms of what's actually on the page or my approach. (Too much? Too little?)

So . . . I don't know if one can objectively say that rainbow casts are Bad and other casts are Good. I think it's always going to be filtered through the eyes of the reader. One reader may roll their eyes at certain characters while other readers may be squealing in joy to finally find someone like themselves, or see a world that more accurately reflects their own.

I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing as much as I can, because I'd rather do too much than too little. Still, I'm petrified of the day my editor goes, "Er, can we tone it down a little?" I'll be equal parts knee-jerk "NO, how could you even ask that?" and "Maybe she has a point and I am trying too hard . . ."

I'm not sure if any of that is really helpful to you. Sorry; I'm just musing aloud. But at least you know you're not alone! :)
 

LJ Hall

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I'm a big fan of rainbow casts in novels where it fits. You'd have a harder time populating a novel set in a tiny farm town in Nebraska with a full rainbow, but if it's downtown in some major city, or if you're a fantasy writer, or sci-fi, where the entire world is up to you, then there's no excuse to not have some kind of diversity.
 

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It does hit me a little bit as trying too hard, but because of their nationalities, not their race. For example, I wouldn't blink an eye if your novel's set in California and most of the characters are Californian but made up of different races, say one Asian, two black, one white, one mixed race and so on. But the very unique nationalities you have going on for each and every main character kinda makes me do a double take as it is.
 

Maryn

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I get a trying-too-hard feel as well, unless your plot explains how these people came together because of forces outside their control. All you're missing is one who's disabled and one who's bipolar, you know?

But, if they're together due entirely to circumstance which makes perfect sense within the world of your novel, then my objection melts away.

Maryn, whose daughter's high school friends were 3 white, 1 Indian, 1 Chinese, 1 Orthodox Jew (also white)
 

Missus Akasha

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These characters are forcibly taken from their part of the world and tossed into a violent fantasy world. This is beyond their control. I didn't want the overall story to be "Lots of American teenagers are kidnapped into a fantasy world." What about other countries and ethnicities? Why just American teenagers? Would it be more acceptable if all of the characters shared the same skin color but kept their orginial ethnicities (British, Czech, Australian, Canadian, American)?

I just wanted to evenly distribute the concept of teenagers being kidnapped from all over Earth (not just one concentrated area) and taken into a different fantasy world.

Each character has something to bring to the table. Their race and ethnicity is apart of them, but it doesn't impact the story. There will not be any racial tensions or issues. They have other important things to worry about like making it out of the world alive.
 

Maryn

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These characters are forcibly taken from their part of the world and tossed into a violent fantasy world. This is beyond their control. I didn't want the overall story to be "Lots of American teenagers are kidnapped into a fantasy world." What about other countries and ethnicities? Why just American teenagers? Would it be more acceptable if all of the characters shared the same skin color but kept their orginial ethnicities (British, Czech, Australian, Canadian, American)?

I just wanted to evenly distribute the concept of teenagers being kidnapped from all over Earth (not just one concentrated area) and taken into a different fantasy world.

Each character has something to bring to the table. Their race and ethnicity is apart of them, but it doesn't impact the story. There will not be any racial tensions or issues. They have other important things to worry about like making it out of the world alive.
Then it does make sense in context--especially if you have a reason it's all teenagers, not mixed ages.

It seems odd they're all English speakers and there's nobody Asian, though. Still, if you have a plausible reason, that's all it takes. Are they specifically chosen as individuals, each with something they bring which is somewhat unique?

(I can't imagine the frustration of a group of teens who cannot communicate under such dire circumstances, so all speaking English seems necessary for the concept to work.)

Maryn, trying not to discourage, only throw out questions
 

lolchemist

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I'm born and raised in New York City so your fiction seems like reality to me! But I agree with tapering it down a bit too. First you have the Korean guy who lives in Russia (which is great! He speaks two languages! Awesome!) But then you have the Nigerian guy who lives in Czech Rep. And an Australian/Maori from New Zealand it's like you're just piling it on for double-diversity points or something.

Can't your Nigerian guy JUST be from Nigeria? Can't your Australian Maori from NZ just be a Maori with some white ancestry from NZ? Etc. Etc.

When the reader pulls back and goes "Wait... What?" too many times, you will end up losing them. You already have a great excuse for the diversity in that kids are being taken from different parts of the world but it's a bit "WAT???" That ALL the kids seem to be multi-culti immigrants too, you know what I mean? You mightend up alienating readers.
 

cornflake

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I'm born and raised in New York City so your fiction seems like reality to me! But I agree with tapering it down a bit too. First you have the Korean guy who lives in Russia (which is great! He speaks two languages! Awesome!) But then you have the Nigerian guy who lives in Czech Rep. And an Australian/Maori from New Zealand it's like you're just piling it on for double-diversity points or something.

Can't your Nigerian guy JUST be from Nigeria? Can't your Australian Maori from NZ just be a Maori with some white ancestry from NZ? Etc. Etc.

When the reader pulls back and goes "Wait... What?" too many times, you will end up losing them. You already have a great excuse for the diversity in that kids are being taken from different parts of the world but it's a bit "WAT???" That ALL the kids seem to be multi-culti immigrants too, you know what I mean? You mightend up alienating readers.

This.

It begins to read like the reading passages on the SAT, where, in an effort to be inclusive, everyone is some bizarre, unlikely mix of ancestry and religion. Like, there'll be a passage about a Chinese Jewish immigrant living in an entirely Southern Baptist town.

It's not that any of your combinations on their own are impossible or anything, but throw them all together and it begins to get 'really? No one is just like, French from France, or was born and raised in Nebraska by pasty cornhuskers?'
 

slhuang

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Given the premise you expanded on in #10, I find your cast not to be diverse *enough,* honestly. Britain, the Czech Republic, Australia, Canada, and America seems decidedly slanted toward Western nations. If you were picking five people from around the world randomly, I'd definitely expect at least one East Asian or South Asian character, or possibly both. (See this map: more than half the world's population is within the circle, which would make 2-3 of your characters Asian or Indian.)

When I'm doing "people randomly selected from around the world," I use this and scale the proportions appropriately. I don't aim to fit it exactly, but I use the numbers as a guide to see if my demographic breakdown is at least reasonably matching reality. Notice that if you pull 5 people, it'd be perfectly realistic not to have any of them be from North America and to have 3 of them from Asia. Whereas your breakdown has several people from North America and nobody from Asia, which feels skewed to me.

Also, remember that your characters won't all come from the same socioeconomic background (unless for some reason this plays into their selection). If you're randomly selecting teenagers, I would expect some of them to come from extremely poor, underprivileged backgrounds and thus have cultural viewpoints diametrically opposed to their middle- and upper-class peers in the group. Notice that in the breakdown from the above link, you might expect 1 out of the 5 to be illiterate, not have clean drinking water, and not have had access to electricity. This would affect characterization significantly, I would think . . .
 

Missus Akasha

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Then it does make sense in context--especially if you have a reason it's all teenagers, not mixed ages.

It seems odd they're all English speakers and there's nobody Asian, though. Still, if you have a plausible reason, that's all it takes. Are they specifically chosen as individuals, each with something they bring which is somewhat unique?

(I can't imagine the frustration of a group of teens who cannot communicate under such dire circumstances, so all speaking English seems necessary for the concept to work.)

Maryn, trying not to discourage, only throw out questions

I do have someone who is Asian, Korean to be exact. He was born in Russia just like his parents. Back in one of my former courses for my education degree, I met this girl whose background was the next same. Her parents were Koreans born and raised in Russia. She was also born in Russia. The only difference is that she moved to the United States with her family as a child.

As for the speaking English situation, he has a decent grasp of English. It's not great.

@lolchemist, the only person who is a "multi-cultural" immigrant is my Korean-Russian. Everyone else is very common and standard. There are people who are half Maori, half Australian (I based this character off of one my favorite actresses, Keisha Castle-Hughes). There are plenty of black British people in the UK. The Cree tribe have been in Quebec longer anyone else.

I might remove my Nigerian guy. I might get the confusion, but how can that alienate my readers? You could say the exact same thing about a story in a entirely fantasy world with their own logic and its own races and ethnicities of people. That could potentially alienate a reader too, but writers still write it because they flesh out the characters and the world along the way, so the reader can feel comfortable reading it.

@cornflake, for me, that is kind of like accepting this assumption that there aren't people of different races and ethnicities don't verge out of their homeland. Most Asians stay in Asia. Most Africans stay in Africa. Cree Indians are some reserve somewhere.

If I removed two of my characters like the Cree girl and the Maori/Australian girl, would that even out the "trying too hard"?
 

Missus Akasha

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I am just going to delete this story from my mind. It seems to be like no matter what direction I want to go, it would be me trying too hard. So I'll write something else for NaNoWriMo. Thanks for the responses.

To add: slhuang, the characters I mentioned are important to the main plot. I actually have one Indian girl and a Japanese boy, who are minor characters within the story. They are also kidnapped and taken to this fantasy world as well. There are ten teenagers in total who are kidnapped. This isn't the first time this has happened. Six of them are unique to the plot. The other four of them such as the Indian girl, the Japanese boy, and two other characters are introduced and encountered throughout the story.
 
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lolchemist

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I meant 'alienating' in a 'what's going on here? I'm so confused!I think I'm going to put this book down and look at something easier.' sort of way but maybe it was too harsh a word to use because I didn't mean for it to have effect on you that it did.

I think you could KEEP all your characters just the way they are (although I would STRONGLY suggest that the Nigerian guy come from somewhere in Africa, because like other people said, it DOES seem like all your kids are being taken from "White" (for the lack of better word) countries) Even your Korean gets taken from Russia, you know what I mean?

But yeah, I think you should NOT forget this story and just flesh it you and work on it for Nano. I see a good story in here and for a change, there is at least GOOD REASON for the people in your cast to end up together! Forget 'trying too hard' and write it. It has potential.
 

Putputt

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These characters are forcibly taken from their part of the world and tossed into a violent fantasy world. This is beyond their control. I didn't want the overall story to be "Lots of American teenagers are kidnapped into a fantasy world." What about other countries and ethnicities? Why just American teenagers? Would it be more acceptable if all of the characters shared the same skin color but kept their orginial ethnicities (British, Czech, Australian, Canadian, American)?

I just wanted to evenly distribute the concept of teenagers being kidnapped from all over Earth (not just one concentrated area) and taken into a different fantasy world.

Each character has something to bring to the table. Their race and ethnicity is apart of them, but it doesn't impact the story. There will not be any racial tensions or issues. They have other important things to worry about like making it out of the world alive.

Were they chosen selectively to be kidnapped or taken at random? If it's the first, then I guess that's fine...but if it's the latter, I'd suggest switching half of them so that their races match their nationalities (i.e. the Korean character is from Korea instead of Russia etc). Otherwise, it does seem really bizzare that everyone happens to be a unique mix of ancestry and nationality. Is there a reason why they all have to be this unique mix?
 

slhuang

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I meant 'alienating' in a 'what's going on here? I'm so confused!I think I'm going to put this book down and look at something easier.' sort of way but maybe it was too harsh a word to use because I didn't mean for it to have effect on you that it did.

I think you could KEEP all your characters just the way they are (although I would STRONGLY suggest that the Nigerian guy come from somewhere in Africa, because like other people said, it DOES seem like all your kids are being taken from "White" (for the lack of better word) countries) Even your Korean gets taken from Russia, you know what I mean?

But yeah, I think you should NOT forget this story and just flesh it you and work on it for Nano. I see a good story in here and for a change, there is at least GOOD REASON for the people in your cast to end up together! Forget 'trying too hard' and write it. It has potential.

^^This, especially the part I bolded. I didn't mean to discourage you either! Only to give you other food for thought as you write it. :tongue I don't think anyone here thinks you shouldn't write this story; I think we're all more in the mind of, "consider this! and this!" (which I admit *can* sound very discouraging when you're on the other side of it, but I don't think we mean it that way -- I certainly didn't).

Maybe this idea is something less-suited to Nano, since it might take some research, but if you've got a story you want to write here, I think you should write it. :D I'd encourage you to consider the feedback you've gotten here in tweaking your ideas, but I don't see anything inherently problematic or anything.
 

cornflake

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@cornflake, for me, that is kind of like accepting this assumption that there aren't people of different races and ethnicities don't verge out of their homeland. Most Asians stay in Asia. Most Africans stay in Africa. Cree Indians are some reserve somewhere.

If I removed two of my characters like the Cree girl and the Maori/Australian girl, would that even out the "trying too hard"?

Of course there are people of different races and of course people venture out of their places of origin, both personal and ethnic. However, not ALL of them do.

I live in an exceedingly diverse city. I heard people speaking French, Russian, I think Haitian Creole/French, an Asian language I can't identify and another one I couldn't identify today just going to work and running errands. I know people with interesting and unusual backgrounds.

However, same as the show Friends was notable, given it was set in NYC, for lacking pretty much any people of colour or various ethnicities among the cast or people the cast interacted with, so would I have found it strange if the entire cast was made up of a Korean girl from Russia, etc., etc.

Which isn't to say I think you shouldn't write it or anything. You asked if they were bad - no one said it was bad, just said the specific collection you proposed sounded unrealistic.
 

J.S.F.

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From a white middle-aged dude who has written predominantly about white characters, here's my two yen for what they're worth on the open market. I'd have to agree with the "you're trying too hard to be inclusive of everyone" idea put forth by JulianneQJohnson and other posters.

There's nothing wrong with having a diverse cast. Nothing. There's nothing wrong with having a person or people of color as the MC('s). But from what you wrote about the descriptions of your characters, it seems like you're trying to toss in every combination and permutation around, almost as if you're afraid of leaving something or someone out.

The problem is, even with a dystopian novel such as what you're writing, is that the ethnicities/races might overwhelm the reader, as in "Okay, Lars is a Scandinavian name, but his mother's a French Creole while his father had an Aborigine mother." (I know that sounds silly, but I'm using an extreme example). I think the readers would be more interested in character development as opposed to wondering just how many races/ethnic groups are involved.

My two yen. I genuinely like the idea, but sometimes too much is just as bad as not enough.
 

Missus Akasha

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I wanted to try something different with this story. I am done with the story idea because the direction I was going to go would have exploded everyone's minds even more. I was going to add more races and ethnicities and go all out because the fantasy world they were going to be taken to was Wonderland. Each of them were Alice in their own way. There is no real reasoning behind why they were taken. They were kidnapped randomly around the world. Wonderland doesn't have normal logic. I can understand where it could have been overwhelming, but my characters' ethnicities would have been the readers' least of their worries when they are busy killing each other or trying to stay alive.

The overload of diversity would have complimented the talking animals and plants, the Card Army, and the evil Queen of Hearts. The story was meant to have a different logic behind the reasoning that can't be understood by us in the normal sense. For those who didn't speak English very well or not at all like the Korean-Russian guy, the characters within Wonderland speak all languages if necessary because it is built upon the imagination of all children around the world. No the other characters probably couldn't speak it. However, that imitates real world.

I used to teach Pre-Kindergarten and I had plenty of children who were from Spanish families and Chinese families who didn't speak a lick of English and I didn't know their languages either. Yet I knew how to communicate with the parents and I knew how to teach the children. Not understanding a language would be a little frustrating to the other characters, but that's life. It wouldn't be any different if they went encountered someone who is Korean at work or at school or at home. It's something unavoidable, but is adjustable. You would have to find a way to communicate with each other. A common ground.

And I apologize for any misunderstanding. This is not a dystopian novel by any means. This story is fantasy all the way.
 

slhuang

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Um, this sounds pretty fantastic and I think you should write it.

Also, given your larger-than-life feel, I think your character diversity would not seem as out-of-place as people initially thought. That tone adds an important context we didn't have before. :)
 

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I wanted to try something different with this story. I am done with the story idea because the direction I was going to go would have exploded everyone's minds even more. I was going to add more races and ethnicities and go all out because the fantasy world they were going to be taken to was Wonderland. Each of them were Alice in their own way. There is no real reasoning behind why they were taken. They were kidnapped randomly around the world. Wonderland doesn't have normal logic. I can understand where it could have been overwhelming, but my characters' ethnicities would have been the readers' least of their worries when they are busy killing each other or trying to stay alive.

And I apologize for any misunderstanding. This is not a dystopian novel by any means. This story is fantasy all the way.

Now that idea, I quite like. The source of any misunderstanding was not enough relevant detail in the OP that would give us any context.

If that's the idea, then I think it could work, though as others have said, it does work better if individual people are described as less 'mixed'... Just makes it easier for the reader.
 
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kevinwaynewilliams

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It won't be easy to write. You've read my WIP, where I was trying to juggle the fairly minor differences between Dominicans and Puerto Ricans and between the dialects of low-income blacks with island heritage and those without. That went slowly, and you know better than I do whether I actually succeeded. I finally added one adult white male to the mix just so that I could write dialog without having to work so hard.

Go for it, but budget time to research the backgrounds.
 
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