NYT-Article - Exposure is what you die of when you can't pay the rent

Makes me think of this:

It all started when DN Lee, who runs the Urban Scientist blog on the prestigious Scientific American network, got asked to do some blogging for Biology-Online.
It would be a monthly article, he said, and she would have to wait two weeks before she was allowed to repost the blog on her own site.
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“Regarding payment,” editor “Ofek” replied in response to her question. “Truthfully, we don’t pay guest bloggers”.
“Thank you very much for your reply,” DN Lee said. “But I will have to decline your offer. Have a great day”.
It should have stopped there. Why should a respected blogger and scientist provide content to a website for free?
But instead, Ofek decided to send this reply:
“Because we don’t pay for blog entries? Are you an urban scientist or an urban whore?”

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http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-an...she-wouldnt-work-for-free-20131017-2vp07.html

Thank you for posting this, I think it's so important.

Yeah, it's such irksome "logic".

I would get exactly the same amount of this oh-so-precious exposure if you published my work--and paid me for it.

It's like trying to get someone enthused about the awesome wrapper you plan to give them instead of a candy bar.

I've seen this sort of article posted elsewhere, usually on private blogs, but one thing I saw in the NYT piece that I haven't seen elsewhere so much is the idea that this is a cultural phenomenon. And I think this is SO important to think about. Because it's not just a case of stupid/greedy/thoughtless/clueless individuals asking this sort of thing. All sorts of people get sucked into this cultural trap of thinking of artistic work as "easy" and someone's "hobby." I am the child of artists, raised in a community of artists, and a writer myself, and I have still been guilty of this myself. Anyway, I think it's something we need to work to change about our culture, and the first step is to be sure not to give it away for free ourselves.

One of my favorite Lois McMaster Bujold books, A Civil Campaign has a great line about this, which has always stuck with me. One character is hiring another for design work, and the second is still so new and unsure of herself that she doesn't think she deserves be paid for something so "easy" as that. The hiring character replies with this

"Never"," said Kareen with passion, "ever suggest they don't have to pay you. What they pay for, they'll value. What they get for free, they'll take for granted, and then demand as a right. Hold them up for all the market will bear."

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It's true, and important, and I for one will not give my writing away for free, even if it means I never get published.

Having had to fight for pay, and declining offers for no pay I want to reiterate how important this is to get out. The fact the NYT printed this is tremendous as most sites that deal with this are preaching to the choir. Exposure is Something You Die Of has been a rallying cry for awhile.

This hits close to home for me. I'm giving a couple of talks at a local sci-fi convention, and I was hoping I could get a guest pass or even just a discount on the entrance fee seeing as I'm running two panels. Nope. I think their volunteer policy is pretty fair (you have to volunteer at least four hours to qualify for a volunteer badge) but I'm still creating content for them for free, and I have to buy my way in to do it? It doesn't still well with me, and I've been trying to justify it (I'm doing this to help other writers, I will get my money's worth by having as much fun as I can at the rest of the con) but gah.

Sorry for the rant. Thanks for the links!

I agree most wholeheartedly except...

Ok, except we often DO write stuff just for the exposure. Blog tours/guest posts etc. Unless you all are getting paid for yours? Cos I ain't.

I don't see the harm in someone asking for a single post from you -- it's done with regularity, by many many writers, without a squeak and we don't usually get paid for it. As long as the asker understands that it's not always possible. There' sno excuse for being rude, on either sides. In other words, I see little difference between a short blog post and a short piece of fiction, except I find fiction easier...

Regular input, or something that'll take a lot of time is another matter. Something I can bang out in an hour? Well, if I calculate how much I made per hour for my last novel...that's, um, *calculates quickly* about £5* prolly!


*actually the gods only know. But it takes a fair few hours to write a novel. I'm pretty quick, and it's still a chunk o'time compared to a blog post.

So I think it's more "take it on a case by case basis". And if you ask, don't be surprised if the writer says no, because we'll all have different reactions depending on what you'r asking us, what time we have, and how much benefit we see out of it. I'm more likely to write a quick free piece for a site that has a regular million views than I am for somene whose only visitor is his mum.

I judge on a case by case basis, and most of the time I say 'no' now. My blog is free, so is my fan fiction. My published stuff is not. Neither is my art. When someone suggests I am a sellout for not offering free artwork for charity, claiming 'we can give you exposure', I point out that Yale and nine other universities pay me for my work. Artwork that their students are writing papers about. Not to mention my several hundred private collectors. I have exposure already.

Same with prose markets. Why would I send my writing to a low-paying or free market, unless it offers amazing street cred?

I am so glad to see this article.

Maxinquaye said:

Well, I generally follow John Scalzi's rule about non-payment. “Fuck you, pay me.” And saying that, like he explains, isn't me being the asshole, it's the one asking for freebies.

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He shoulda paid me for that guest post I did on his blog then, huh? Not really -- it was great exposure, and it didn't take hardly any time, so no, I didn't expect to get paid, same as I don't get paid for any guest posts I make.

For a quick blog/article/interview/giveaway/cover reveal post, most (fiction) writers don't get paid, or expect to be, and they do them all the time. If that is the case, then you can't be surprised when people ask you to do stuff for free. Because you already are.

Then again, they shouldn't be surprised if you politely say no. No harm in asking, as long as you don't get offended by a polite answer imo.

Mr Flibble said:

I agree most wholeheartedly except...

Ok, except we often DO write stuff just for the exposure. Blog tours/guest posts etc. Unless you all are getting paid for yours? Cos I ain't.

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See, I don't take this as the same thing.

I write posts for my blog for my own reasons, just like I write my books. No one's asking me to do it. I just do it. It's like my crocheting baby blankets. I make them and give them to friends and family because I want to.

However, when someone asks me to make one for their friend or family, it becomes a commission. They want it a particular color, a particular whatever and it's not what I might want to do with the next blanket I make. I don't see why I shouldn't be compensated for my time, talent and materials doing something for them when I could be doing something for me. (They're multi-color Celtic knotwork afghans, so it takes me 3-4 months to make one, so it's not an afternoon thing.) Of course, I could choose to do it for free, but I resent the attitude that just because I make them for fun, I shouldn't charge anything for them, not even materials.

Writing's the same way. It's still my time and talent being occupied, that I'm not able to work on my own stuff. Unless I choose to give that away for free, I don't see why I shouldn't be compensated for it in some practical terms. Any expectation that I shouldn't is very irking.

DeleyanLee said:

See, I don't take this as the same thing.

I write posts for my blog for my own reasons, just like I write my books. No one's asking me to do it. I just do it. It's like my crocheting baby blankets. I make them and give them to friends and family because I want to.

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I'm talking about doing posts for other people's blogs. Not my own. Being asked to write something for someone else, as stated in the OP.

I think on it on a case by case basis myself. If it sounds like fun and it won't take long, sure. If you want me to do a weekly article, or it's going to be a grind, or take too much time, pay the hell up.

Mr Flibble said:

I'm talking about doing posts for other people's blogs. Not my own. Being asked to write something for someone else, as stated in the OP.

I think on it on a case by case basis myself. If it sounds like fun and it won't take long, sure. If you want me to do a weekly article, or it's going to be a grind, or take too much time, pay the hell up.

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QFT, though I find doing blog posts to be a grind and take up too much time, just for my own blog. I can't imagine doing it for someone else.

As a person who does my own artwork as a hobby first, asking me to engage in any contract that requires timeliness or regular contribution would have me asking for money. It is hard for me to hit deadlines when I have no incentives to meet them.

I completely agree with the article in the OP. However, it's kind of completely hilarious to me that the NYT of all places, published that.

The NYT, absolutely notorious for paying freelancers crap, because, well, you get printed in the NYT.

These kinds of situations remind me of the unpaid internship dramas that happen all the time too. Those poor kids get treated like indentured servants for the sake of 'exposure and education' when in reality a lot of them are literally doing jobs paid employees should be doing. This 'for the exposure' scam needs to be curtailed from all directions. People need to be *PAID* for the work that they do.

DeleyanLee said:

See, I don't take this as the same thing.

I write posts for my blog for my own reasons, just like I write my books. No one's asking me to do it. I just do it. It's like my crocheting baby blankets. I make them and give them to friends and family because I want to.

However, when someone asks me to make one for their friend or family, it becomes a commission. They want it a particular color, a particular whatever and it's not what I might want to do with the next blanket I make. I don't see why I shouldn't be compensated for my time, talent and materials doing something for them when I could be doing something for me. (They're multi-color Celtic knotwork afghans, so it takes me 3-4 months to make one, so it's not an afternoon thing.) Of course, I could choose to do it for free, but I resent the attitude that just because I make them for fun, I shouldn't charge anything for them, not even materials.

Writing's the same way. It's still my time and talent being occupied, that I'm not able to work on my own stuff. Unless I choose to give that away for free, I don't see why I shouldn't be compensated for it in some practical terms. Any expectation that I shouldn't is very irking.

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And, if you start doing stuff for free just because people ask, it gets harder to charge when you do want to.
"What, you did it for him, and her, and them, and those! Why won't you do it for me?"
It goes back to if you do it because you want to, it's fine, but if there's an expectation that you'll just hop to it, not so fine.

Maxinquaye said:

Well, I generally follow John Scalzi's rule about non-payment. “Fuck you, pay me.” And saying that, like he explains, isn't me being the asshole, it's the one asking for freebies.

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I was poised ready to link his post. It's a good one.

Maxinquaye said:

Note that when I say, “writing for my own blog”, I really mean “realising after three months that I have one, and feeling panicky that I should update it”. That, basically, goes for all my social media these days.

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Yeah. I feel you on this one.

cornflake said:

I completely agree with the article in the OP. However, it's kind of completely hilarious to me that the NYT of all places, published that.

The NYT, absolutely notorious for paying freelancers crap, because, well, you get printed in the NYT.

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Yeah, but at least they pay. If freelances held out for venues that pay well, they'd starve to death.

Maxinquaye said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/o...the-internet-unite.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=1&


I just wanted to post this article here because it's so good, and the content needs to be said. The title of the post comes from one of the comments of that piece.

In an age where the container of data is what is supposed to determine the value of the data in the container, ie digital goods should be close to free, more articles like this should be published.

Asking people to work for free is rude. Accepting work for exposure, or very low pay, damages all writers everywhere.

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Totally agree. The trouble is, the urge to get published is as fierce and unrelenting as the urge to have children when that strikes a person. When I was a literary agent, I had to have the "You don't work for free!" talk with nearly every client. This was in Israel, where most writers were not represented and publishers took full advantage of that.

Do you all know Harlan Ellison's rant on the subject? I listen to it every time I'm tempted to submit a piece to the Huff Post.

As I look over my Duotrope list of short story markets, I find -- surprise! -- that the highest prestige pubs are those that pay at a professional rate, then a few who pay at semi-pro rates. (This is SFF pubs; some lit mags with high prestige might pay little to nothing or copies, but I haven't looked much into this sector lately.)

I guess the part of the brain that assigns values is all like, "Whoa, somebody paid that writer 25 cents a word (Tor.com, highest rate I'm aware of.) She must be GOOD."

As far as I'm concerned, people can ask for free work as long as they accept my "no" with good grace and my occasional "yes" with the only gratitude that really means something: Cookies.

cornflake said:

I completely agree with the article in the OP. However, it's kind of completely hilarious to me that the NYT of all places, published that.

The NYT, absolutely notorious for paying freelancers crap, because, well, you get printed in the NYT.

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QFT --I know several well established, well regarded freelance journalists, all have mentioned being asked to write more for lower rates--or yes, even free--from prestigious pubs.

Barbara R. said:

Yeah, but at least they pay. If freelances held out for venues that pay well, they'd starve to death.

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The majority of people I know who've written for the Times on a freelance basis - the Times pays worse than pretty much anyplace else they write for. It's the Times, though, so they do it. They bitch, but they do it.