Maintaining Anonymity on Amazon

docmarty · Oct 26, 2013

Hi,

I've been thinking about self publishing an ebook for a couple of years and I think I might finally do it. I've been researching self publishing and I've narrowed it down to Smashwords and amazon.

Smashwords allows you to use a pen name and I'm wondering if Amazon also has this feature. I wasn't able to find this information on this Website, if anyone knows if they allow this please let me know.

veinglory · Oct 26, 2013

Yes they do.

merrihiatt · Oct 26, 2013

Yes, they do. You can go to the Amazon Kindle Direct Publishing website and read the FAQs, and I encourage you to do so. It has tons of information.

You can publish through more than one sales channel. It isn't either/or. It only becomes an issue if you choose to go with Amazon KDP Select, which requires exclusivity.

M. H. Lee · Oct 26, 2013

Just to add to what the others said. You will need to give your real name when you create your Amazon account (taxes), but each book you put up you can list your pen name as the author. Just be sure on the details page that you don't list your own name anywhere and you should be good. (I read about someone who had listed their name as an editor or contributor or something, so ended up putting up the book with their own name associated with it.)

You'll also want to consider what to do about the copyright notice. You can put it under the pen name, but the terms of the copyright will be different and it may be harder to prove that you are the pen name if there's ever a need to.

docmarty · Oct 26, 2013

Thanks for all the info. I'll take a closer look at their FAQ's.

You'll also want to consider what to do about the copyright notice. You can put it under the pen name, but the terms of the copyright will be different and it may be harder to prove that you are the pen name if there's ever a need to.

I'm not concerned about copyright right now but I assume that Amazon would be able to confirm my identity if necessary.

Old Hack · Oct 27, 2013

I wouldn't assume that Amazon would be able to do so, nor would I assume that Amazon would be willing to do so.

Also, while you can use pseudonyms on Amazon this won't protect your true identity: if someone wants to find out who is behind your book they almost certainly will. Pseudonyms offer no real protection.

Why are you so keen to keep your own name separate from your writing?

Arpeggio · Oct 27, 2013

Old Hack said:
Also, while you can use pseudonyms on Amazon this won't protect your true identity: if someone wants to find out who is behind your book they almost certainly will. Pseudonyms offer no real protection.

I’d be interested to learn more about what you are saying.

What if you have your own ISBN's and are therefore publisher. You get "caught" but can say you are not the author, the “pen name” name is?

The stalker say’s “prove it!” to which you reply that you are under contractual obligation to offer your author(s) privacy and that the name is actually a pen name for the authors real name, so there is no need for them to look for Fifi Le’ Criossont Von Spankington.

As far as not wanting certain genres linked on the publisher level, I'm sure many large publishers have different imprints, but I just found that (to my surprise) Penguin seems to use its same main imprint for erotica, BDSM and children’s books.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241965454/?tag=absowrit-21

http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9781620877999/bdsm-101

http://www.us.penguingroup.com/static/pages/youngreaders/children/index.html

Old Hack · Oct 27, 2013

Arpeggio said:
I’d be interested to learn more about what you are saying.

What if you have your own ISBN's and are therefore publisher. You get "caught" but can say you are not the author, the “pen name” name is?

The stalker say’s “prove it!” to which you reply that you are under contractual obligation to offer your author(s) privacy and that the name is actually a pen name for the authors real name, so there is no need for them to look for Fifi Le’ Criossont Von Spankington.

Apart from all the lies that are involved in your scenario, which I'd certainly be uncomfortable with, you're assuming that the only way for people to find out what was happening was by asking the publisher/author directly. There are other ways, as we saw recently when J K Rowling's pseudonym was discovered.

As far as not wanting certain genres linked on the publisher level, I'm sure many large publishers have different imprints, but I just found that (to my surprise) Penguin seems to use its same main imprint for erotica, BDSM and children’s books.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241965454/?tag=absowrit-21

http://www.penguin.co.nz/products/9781620877999/bdsm-101

http://www.us.penguingroup.com/static/pages/youngreaders/children/index.html

Your links each show Penguin's activity in different countries (the UK, New Zealand, and the USA), and so they're not a reliable proof for your claim; and one of them does give the imprint name Norton. Perhaps you missed that.

Alice Xavier · Oct 27, 2013

If someone is intent on finding out the true identity under the pen name, they're not going to find out via Amazon. There is NO way to link the books you see in the store to the KDP account details unless you're the government or law enforcement and subpoena Amazon for that info. In that case, you have bigger problems than having people find out your pen name.

Other precautions to take are to pay extra for privacy protection when getting a domain for your pen name, use a completely new email and don't have it route or forward to any email associated with your real identity, and if you need to create an LLC for your publishing endeavors, make sure to do a DBA and all that good stuff. Oh, and don't post about your pen name on forums where you've linked your profile to your real identity. Doing all that and being diligent about not spilling the beans yourself will make it extremely, massively difficult for stalkers or your future boss to connect you and your pen name.

docmarty · Oct 27, 2013

Old Hack said:
I wouldn't assume that Amazon would be able to do so, nor would I assume that Amazon would be willing to do so.

Also, while you can use pseudonyms on Amazon this won't protect your true identity: if someone wants to find out who is behind your book they almost certainly will. Pseudonyms offer no real protection.

Can you explain how you would go about finding the real identity of an author who has used a pen name? I doubt Amazon would reveal the identity of an author to anyone who makes a random inquiry.

Why are you so keen to keep your own name separate from your writing?

I like to maintain my privacy. The ebook I wrote is a comedy and the material is not objectionable, however, at this time I don't want any ebook I write to be linked to my real name.

Alice Xavier, good tips. I think what you're describing is cross contamination.

Old Hack · Oct 27, 2013

docmarty said:
Can you explain how you would go about finding the real identity of an author who has used a pen name?

There are all sorts of ways to find things out, which I'm not going to list here for what are, I hope, obvious reasons. I've used various free tools to discover who was trolling my website: it was easy, and took only a few moments. And it's even easier if the person whose true identity you're after doesn't know about these things and doesn't understand how they work.

That you have to ask implies to me that you're in that category. Which means you're also not going to know what you should do to protect your true identity if you do decide to go ahead with this.

I doubt Amazon would reveal the identity of an author to anyone who makes a random inquiry.

If Amazon won't reveal your true identity to anyone who makes a "random inquiry", why would Amazon also confirm your identity if necessary? You can't have it both ways.

I like to maintain my privacy. The ebook I wrote is a comedy and the material is not objectionable, however, at this time I don't want any ebook I write to be linked to my real name.

The only way to ensure that happens is to not publish it, I'm afraid.

docmarty · Oct 27, 2013

Old Hack said:
There are all sorts of ways to find things out, which I'm not going to list here for what are, I hope, obvious reasons. I've used various free tools to discover who was trolling my website: it was easy, and took only a few moments. And it's even easier if the person whose true identity you're after doesn't know about these things and doesn't understand how they work.

What you're describing (uncovering people who troll your Website) has nothing to do with uncovering who's behind a pen name.

That you have to ask implies to me that you're in that category. Which means you're also not going to know what you should do to protect your true identity if you do decide to go ahead with this.

You make too many assumptions and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that you are knowledgeable about this yourself.

If Amazon won't reveal your true identity to anyone who makes a "random inquiry", why would Amazon also confirm your identity if necessary? You can't have it both ways.

There's a big difference. If I'm suing someone for copyright infringement and my attorney contacts Amazon with the details of the request for information, there would be a good reason for them to cooperate. On the other hand, if I email Amazon asking them to reveal to me the true identity of an author, I wouldn't even get a response.

The only way to ensure that happens is to not publish it, I'm afraid.

I think you're wrong.

docmarty · Oct 27, 2013

Old Hack said:
There are all sorts of ways to find things out, which I'm not going to list here for what are, I hope, obvious reasons. I've used various free tools to discover who was trolling my website: it was easy, and took only a few moments. And it's even easier if the person whose true identity you're after doesn't know about these things and doesn't understand how they work.

That you have to ask implies to me that you're in that category. Which means you're also not going to know what you should do to protect your true identity if you do decide to go ahead with this.

Although this sort of derails my own thread, I'll take the bait and respond to this properly.

Here's how I think you catch those who troll your Website. You link the IP address they use to post a message on your site to the IP address they use when they post on this forum. You use some type of tracker or analytic software on your Website to obtain their IP address there and your Moderator status allows you to see the IP address of every forum member on this site when they post a comment.

If you really want to get into cyberstalker mode, you could then do a search on the email address they used to register an account here to see if they've used it elsewhere. You can also do a search on their username. Many people usually use the same email account and/or username on multiple different sites such as twitter, facebook, instagram...etc.

Then, if you really, really want to go into creepy cyberstalker mode, you will cyberstalk their facebook, twitter & instagram friends. Sooner or later (usually sooner) you'll find a friend who displays all of their pictures to the public. You'll probably find a picture of the "troll" as well.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. You can use this information listed above to find their linkedin profile and possibly even their work contact # on various other Websites. The list goes on and on. So, I do have a pretty good idea of how this works.

Now for the good part. This is what I'd do to prevent this from happening. I'd create a new email account to register with Amazon. I'd use a pen name that I haven't used anywhere else in the past. And the most important part, if I wanted complete anonymity, I wouldn't tell anyone that I self published an ebook.

This way there are no links. So, for example, if I were to visit your Website and leave a rude comment (I wouldn't do that

) you would certainly link it to my username here and know it was me, unless I used a VPN, proxy or TOR to post the comment on your Website.

So now you know that I am the culprit. If you decided to get even by leaving a negative review of my book you would then attempt to uncover my pen name but you would run into a brick wall since none of the information I used on Amazon matches the information I used here. Even the name docmarty and the email account I used to register this account would lead nowhere.

Obviously, nothing is foolproof. However, there are ways to remain anonymous online as Alice pointed out earlier. While it's true that I'm not familiar with pen names as this is all new to me, I refuse to accept that remaining anonymous is not possible. If you can prove me wrong, please do. It would be educational for a lot of people.

Alice Xavier · Oct 27, 2013

I think a big thing we're forgetting about is motivation. The fact that it's technically possible to unearth the real identity behind a pen name doesn't mean that it'll actually happen. Why? Because who the hell cares about this docmarty guy and his silly books? Unless you do something assholish enough to inspire the various forces of the internet to bring their ire down upon you, like dumping a friendly kitty in a trashcan or even trolling a website, then there's really no motivation for anyone to go after you. Like at all. There are better, easier targets out there.

docmarty · Oct 27, 2013

Alice Xavier said:
Because who the hell cares about this docmarty guy and his silly books?

There's no need to be mean.

P.S. I like cats.

P.P.S. I rather focus on the technical rather than the motivation. Although I'm not afraid of anyone trolling me or using information against me, I'm very interested in maintaining my anonymity just like every author who uses a pen name. Anyway, there's a lot of good info in this thread and I think my question has been answered. But, I always like to hear the other side of the argument and I think that the more information we have the better prepared we are.

JournoWriter · Oct 27, 2013

Your assumption that pen names grant anonymity is incorrect. This has been discussed in several previous threads, including this one: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237370

Also, not every author who uses a pen name wants anonymity. There are multiple reasons one could want one's real name not attached to certain books.

Old Hack · Oct 28, 2013

docmarty said:
What you're describing (uncovering people who troll your Website) has nothing to do with uncovering who's behind a pen name.

I used that as an example. There are simple, free ways to discover things about people who comment on my blog, just as there are simple, free ways to discover things about people who have written books. My point was that using a pseudonym does not guarantee you anonymity; and information is easy to find if you know how to look.

You make too many assumptions and you haven't provided a shred of evidence that you are knowledgeable about this yourself.

As I wrote in my previous comment, I'm not going to go into detail for what I'd have thought are obvious reasons. If as a result you believe I don't know anything about it, that's your choice.

There's a big difference. If I'm suing someone for copyright infringement and my attorney contacts Amazon with the details of the request for information, there would be a good reason for them to cooperate. On the other hand, if I email Amazon asking them to reveal to me the true identity of an author, I wouldn't even get a response.

It doesn't matter who contacts Amazon, or what they're asking for: Amazon is extremely unlikely to give out any information unless they are compelled to do so by a court of law, and even then they'll put up a fight. They're obliged by law to protect the data they hold.

I think you're wrong.

And I know I'm right. I've been involved in several cases like this, which is how I know. For obvious reasons, I can't detail what happened.

docmarty said:
Although this sort of derails my own thread, I'll take the bait and respond to this properly.

I wasn't baiting you.

Here's how I think you catch those who troll your Website.

All those things are possible. But there's a lot more that one can do.

Now for the good part. This is what I'd do to prevent this from happening. I'd create a new email account to register with Amazon. I'd use a pen name that I haven't used anywhere else in the past. And the most important part, if I wanted complete anonymity, I wouldn't tell anyone that I self published an ebook.

This way there are no links.

Many have tried this. But people make mistakes, and sooner or later they slip up. They comment on a message board using the wrong user-name; they register somewhere using the wrong email address; they tell a friend about their e-book. And voila! Those links are established.

While it's true that I'm not familiar with pen names as this is all new to me, I refuse to accept that remaining anonymous is not possible. If you can prove me wrong, please do. It would be educational for a lot of people.

My bold.

You've made your mind up.

You're wrong, but you've already decided you know better than me, so there's no point in my even attempting to prove that.

However, I hope that everyone else who reads this thread recognises that using a pseudonym cannot and will not protect your true identity if someone is determined to uncover it.

As Alice Xavier has already pointed out,

Alice Xavier said:
The fact that it's technically possible to unearth the real identity behind a pen name doesn't mean that it'll actually happen.

But if someone is motivated to uncover your true identity, and they have an inquiring mind, they'll do it.

girlyswot · Oct 28, 2013

Maintaining anonymity if you sell a handful of books a month = easy. Maintaining anonymity if your book happens to be the next Harry Potter = impossible.

Make sure you're okay with what could happen in the latter case before you decide to publish.

Arpeggio · Oct 28, 2013

Old Hack said:
Apart from all the lies that are involved in your scenario, which I'd certainly be uncomfortable with, you're assuming that the only way for people to find out what was happening was by asking the publisher/author directly. There are other ways, as we saw recently when J K Rowling's pseudonym was discovered.

Your links each show Penguin's activity in different countries (the UK, New Zealand, and the USA), and so they're not a reliable proof for your claim; and one of them does give the imprint name Norton. Perhaps you missed that.

Yes OK then, lies, and you'd be right to scrutinize that (which is at least a new idea for me), as ideas should be for deeper thought.

I'm no legal expert but I've heard the saying "for a crime to happen there has to be a victim." in which case wouldn't the persuaunt have to put forward a case to convince the law that there is a victim if they went that route?

If JK wrote these other books in dark a room on her own where nobody is watching, then surely the only person who reveals at the very earliest point that it was her, is her herself. If she is also the publisher behind the imprint then the fictitious author needn't show up to prove their existence in real life.

I posted those links on the basis they are on the internet and I viewed them from one location, regardless if they are sites for different countries, while Norton still had Penguin written next to it.

Old Hack · Oct 28, 2013

Arpeggio said:
Yes OK then, lies, and you'd be right to scrutinize that (which is at least a new idea for me), as ideas should be for deeper thought.

You've never come across the idea that one should be truthful? Really?

I'm no legal expert but I've heard the saying "for a crime to happen there has to be a victim."

I'm no legal expert but I've heard the saying "I'll have a beer please, Bob." It probably holds as much legal water as your saying does.

in which case wouldn't the persuaunt have to put forward a case to convince the law that there is a victim if they went that route?

If that were the case, that might be so. But I'm not sure it is, and even if it is, then what's the point? Suppose someone did that: then Amazon would provide the information and lo! the writer's true identity would be discovered. See, it could happen.

However, I'd moved on. I pointed out that there were other ways for writers' true identities to be linked with their pseudonyms, as we've recently seen with JKR. One doesn't necessarily need to resort to legal wranglings to find these things out.

If JK wrote these other books in dark a room on her own where nobody is watching, then surely the only person who reveals at the very earliest point that it was her, is her herself. If she is also the publisher behind the imprint then the fictitious author needn't show up to prove their existence in real life.

If, if, if...

The point is, though, that very few writers work in the vacuum you describe; and even if they did, they can't escape from the eyes of the Inland Revenue. Someone, somewhere, will eventually know who is behind every pseudonym.

I posted those links on the basis they are on the internet and I viewed them from one location, regardless if they are sites for different countries,

Publishers in different countries have different imprints which publish different sorts of books. Just because they're part of the same conglomerate you can't assume that they'll use the same imprint name for a specific genre in every territory. It doesn't work that way.

while Norton still had Penguin written next to it.

So you saw that the imprint was given as Norton Penguin but still assumed the link somehow proved that Penguin uses identical imprints for various books even though the other links don't name their imprints? Hmmm. I think you need to rethink this one.

Torgo · Oct 28, 2013

Arpeggio said:
I posted those links on the basis they are on the internet and I viewed them from one location, regardless if they are sites for different countries, while Norton still had Penguin written next to it.

Actually, the Penguin erotica anthology is Penguin; the BDSM book is WW Norton (which is part of Penguin, but a separate imprint); the children's books go out under a range of imprints, including Puffin and Dial. As far as I'm aware Penguin don't publish any children's books under the Penguin imprint.

docmarty · Oct 28, 2013

Old Hack said:
As I wrote in my previous comment, I'm not going to go into detail for what I'd have thought are obvious reasons. If as a result you believe I don't know anything about it, that's your choice.

You assumed the same thing about me. lol. My point is that you can't make a claim without backing it up. I honestly want to know if there are ways to find out someone's pen name if the author takes steps to not cross contaminate and keep their mouth shut. You have alluded to ways that anonymity can be compromised but you haven't provided any explanations. If you don't want to do this that's fine, hopefully someone else will.

Old Hack said:
You're wrong, but you've already decided you know better than me, so there's no point in my even attempting to prove that.

If I'm wrong then I'll admit it but you have not proved anything. It's been established that cross contaminating (using the same name/email account...even the same style of writing...etc) can expose someone but I'm more interested in the technical aspects. What measures does Amazon take?

I never said or implied that I know more than you about this, I was simply countering your claims because you did not elaborate.

Old Hack said:
However, I hope that everyone else who reads this thread recognises that using a pseudonym cannot and will not protect your true identity if someone is determined to uncover it.

As Alice Xavier has already pointed out,

But if someone is motivated to uncover your true identity, and they have an inquiring mind, they'll do it.

This is not entirely true. I can be as motivated as I like but unless I find a way to uncover someone's true identity, I will not succeed.

girlyswot said:
Maintaining anonymity if you sell a handful of books a month = easy. Maintaining anonymity if your book happens to be the next Harry Potter = impossible.

Make sure you're okay with what could happen in the latter case before you decide to publish.

It's more likely that anonymity can be compromised if 100,000 people are trying to uncover the true identity than if 1 person is trying to uncover it but there has to be something that gives the identity away in each case.

If it's a matter of figuring of matching someone's writing style or linking their username or email account then yes, I agree that a pen name can easily be discovered. But if Amazon does not divulge the true identity and the author takes measures to ensure they do not leak their own identity then how can it be compromised?

docmarty · Oct 28, 2013

JournoWriter said:
Your assumption that pen names grant anonymity is incorrect. This has been discussed in several previous threads, including this one: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237370

Also, not every author who uses a pen name wants anonymity. There are multiple reasons one could want one's real name not attached to certain books.

Thanks for the link. I found this post particularly insightful.

Nightmelody · Oct 28, 2013

I've used a pen name with no problems. I can google my real name and they don't connect, in fact others with my real name pop up in google, usually in Obits. I never use my real name online except on secure accts like online banking. I use my pen name to copyright and I have probably 10-20 earlier versions of each book, pretty hard for a book swiper to copy ( I name files by month/yr).

I've never had a stalker for writing, though I do have a reviewer who buys all my books even though she HATES them all, lol.

I did have a stalker on a religious forum and that was weird and scary, I had to change a screen name, but they never found the real me. Also, I had mentioned some other forums I was on so I made it easy for the stalker. Again, I never used my real name and used a screen name email to sign up, so it was much harder to find the real me. Most people are not hacktivists with a huge skillset.

Old Hack · Oct 29, 2013

docmarty said:
You assumed the same thing about me. lol. My point is that you can't make a claim without backing it up. I honestly want to know if there are ways to find out someone's pen name if the author takes steps to not cross contaminate and keep their mouth shut. You have alluded to ways that anonymity can be compromised but you haven't provided any explanations. If you don't want to do this that's fine, hopefully someone else will.

No, "hopefully" no one else will. (That's one of my pet grammar-peeves, I'm afraid.)

I'll spell it out for you. I'm not going to provide instructions on how to find out this sort of information. We have members who use pseudonyms for all sorts of reasons, some of whom have posted in this thread, and I don't want to give anyone who has a problem with them any help.

If I'm wrong then I'll admit it

But in a previous comment you wrote,

docmarty said:
I refuse to accept that remaining anonymous is not possible.

You can't mean both.

It's been established that cross contaminating (using the same name/email account...even the same style of writing...etc) can expose someone but I'm more interested in the technical aspects. What measures does Amazon take?

Cross-contamination is a big issue. As I've said before, most people make mistakes, sooner or later; or they won't even realise that they're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs behind them.

My guess is that Amazon won't provide any information unless it's compelled to do so by law: the data protection act would ensure that. But Amazon isn't the problem: there are all sorts of other ways you can find things out. Company accounts are public, for example.

This is not entirely true. I can be as motivated as I like but unless I find a way to uncover someone's true identity, I will not succeed.

But it's also true that if you do find a way to uncover it, you will succeed.

If it's a matter of figuring of matching someone's writing style or linking their username or email account then yes, I agree that a pen name can easily be discovered. But if Amazon does not divulge the true identity and the author takes measures to ensure they do not leak their own identity then how can it be compromised?

You mentioned that you found a specific post from another thread:

docmarty said:
Thanks for the link. I found this post particularly insightful.

To help people reading along I'll quote that post:

James D. Macdonald said:
Specifically when self-publishing it is. Workshop instructions:

1) Let's assume your name is Mary Jane Glatzbier. Go down to your bank. Tell them that you are now DBA Sandi Smith.

2) Get a gmail (or hotmail, or yahoo) account in the name of Reginald Browne. Go to Amazon and set up an account at Kindle Direct Publishing using the name Reginald Brown. Tell them to deposit the money in the account of Sandi Smith (bank routing numbers go here).

3) Create your ebook. On the cover, put the byline Heliotrope Jones. On the copyright page put, "Copyright (c) 2012 by Heliotrope Jones."

4) Do not ever, anywhere, breathe the names "Sandi Smith," "Reginald Brown" and/or especially not "Heliotrope Jones." No Facebook account, no Twitter, no nothing. Don't attach any photos to any of the accounts.

It would take someone with subpoena power to connect Ms. Glatzbier to Ms. Jones' books. Legitimate law enforcement could do it with a court order. Anyone else would have a very hard time indeed.

I agree with Jim that if you do all those things, you should be ok. But as I've said numerous times, people make mistakes. Especially when, as I said a little higher up this post, they don't realise the full implications of what they're doing. The post which follows Jim's gives us a great example of what can go wrong, so I'll quote that one too:

Torgo said:
I would add: check the metadata of any word processing docs you might be sending. MS Word likes to embed your name or at least initials in everything.

That's one of many ways you can give yourself away. And I bet very few writers know about all this stuff: in fact, I bet most don't know what they don't know (if that makes any sense!), and so can't protect themselves against it.

Maintaining Anonymity on Amazon

docmarty

veinglory

volitare nequeo

merrihiatt

Writing! Writing! Writing!

M. H. Lee

docmarty

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Arpeggio

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Alice Xavier

some goon from the internet

docmarty

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

docmarty

docmarty

Alice Xavier

some goon from the internet

docmarty

JournoWriter

Just the facts, please

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

girlyswot

Arpeggio

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

docmarty

docmarty

Nightmelody

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman