How Typical are my Sales Numbers and my Publisher?

Banjhakri · Oct 15, 2013

Hello everyone, I'm now worried/curious about having sold my first novel to a publisher doing nothing to promote it, but maybe I'm just being a prima donna? Without going into too much depth on my life's story, here is the short of it:

Spent five years writing a first novel, have published short stories, advanced degree, blah blah.
Sold to a young, unaccomplished Indie Press (not in the AW beware forum), unagented, $100 advance.
POD only press, CreateSpace/Amazon.
Published March of 2013 (Seven months ago).
Asked that instead of an advance I get copies, added some of my own money, got around 50 copies.
Have sold my printed copies at a handful of readings.
Watched my sales rank at Amazon plummet since the first week.
Asked Publisher for my contractually-bound sales figures at 6 months since publication.
Sales numbers are zero since the first week, when my friends/family out of town ordered copies on news of its release.
Zero. Nada. Zippo. No books sold besides by me at readings.

I get that I'm supposed to be the champion of my own work, and sure, it's clear my efforts at promotion, blogging, articles, etc. have failed completely, my question, however, is whether I should be disappointed in my publisher for failing to promote or otherwise get my title out there in the wild world.

Second, what is a tactful, assertive way of expressing my displeasure with my publisher's lack of investment? It's pretty depressing thinking my novel will not be considered for any award, appear on the bookshelves of any store, including Powell's Books, which is located in my hometown, and will not be seen by anyone who isn't standing right in front of my face looking at it in my own hand.

veinglory · Oct 15, 2013

My first comment would be that about 10 or so of those hard copies should have been free.

And that anyone has every right to be disappointed at zero sales in six months. No matter what you did or didn't do that suggests a publisher with zero ability to acheive the desired goal of selling books.

You may be no worse off than if you had self-published, but also no better off. Unless you think they will suddenly do better (how do their other books do?), you might consider investigating how to terminate the contract.

Torgo · Oct 15, 2013

Sounds like you've been badly published, possibly by hobbyists, I'm afraid. I would be interested to know what they have in the way of a sales force. Getting your books into Powells - for which I'm reading $nationalchainbookstore - means someone has to go and meet a Powells buyer and sell the book to them; usually someone who has enough to sell of the sort of thing Powells like to buy that they have regular appointments. Are they doing that? If not, how are they intending that books should show up on shelves?

If that's not their strategy - and let's say it's a little niche press putting out stuff that might be too niche for Main Street - then what is their strategy? Are they selling stuff via Amazon, or a website of their own, etc? How do people find the books they sell?

How are they marketing the books? Are they spending any money? I guess not. How are they publicising them? Are they sending proofs to influential SF bloggers and tastemakers? If so, who?

I think all of these would be legitimate questions to ask, particularly in the light of zero sales.

veinglory · Oct 15, 2013

I think depending entirely on Kindle/Createspace already suggests a publisher with limited publishing skills and/or willingness to invest time and effort.

Banjhakri · Oct 15, 2013

veinglory said:
You may be no worse off than if you had self-published, but also no better off.

My thoughts exactly. I had grown up (college) with it drummed in my head that I'd be shunned and blacklisted if I ever did something so dastardly as self-publishing, but now I'm seeing that many bookstores, radio stations, newspapers, review sites, and even the academic institution where I teach just assumes I'm talking about a self-published work when I approach them myself, even when I expressly mention the publisher (that there is a publisher, I guess). That is, they don't give me the time of day.

My point is, the "advantage" of having a publisher listed on the title is worth nothing to just about everybody I encounter, and though I'm new to all this, I think this is a function of the new world of easy entry to market for self published authors.

Thanks for your reply. I'm determined not to make this thread a whine fest.

merrihiatt · Oct 15, 2013

I suggest re-reading your contract to find out exactly what they agreed to do in the way of promoting and marketing your book. The contract may be vague and leave all of this to their discretion. If your friends/family from out of town can produce receipts for their purchases, you would have proof that books were purchased, but no royalty was paid. It can take 6-12 months to receive payment and some publishers only send royalties after a certain amount has been reached (i.e., $50 in royalties have accrued).

veinglory · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
...just assumes I'm talking about a self-published work when I approach them myself, even when I expressly mention the publisher (

IMHO: unless the publisher is known and respected, using Createspace/Kindle only is kind of like self-publishing by proxy. It does not--for example--give you the kind of discount bookstores will want to stock you on the shelf. That would require use of Lightning Source at the very least.

veinglory · Oct 15, 2013

merrihiatt said:
produce receipts for their purchases, you would have proof that books were purchased, but no royalty was paid. It can take 6-12 months to receive payment and some publishers only send royalties after a certain amount has been reached (i.e., $50 in royalties have accrued).

I think OP means these sales to friends were shown in the publishers accounting, but he is not counting them as meaningful sales.

Banjhakri · Oct 15, 2013

Torgo said:
Sounds like you've been badly published, possibly by hobbyists, I'm afraid. I would be interested to know what they have in the way of a sales force.

Yes, I will be asking these pointed questions. I honestly don't want to start a fight with my publisher, I just hope that their intention wasn't that they would recline back and earn their 80% of net based on me myself becoming an overnight sensation.

The answers I've received so far are the usual old-publishing-world-is-dead rhetoric, that there is no point getting into bookstores, nobody attends readings, but surely there must be SOME way to sell books.

Banjhakri · Oct 15, 2013

veinglory said:
I think OP means these sales to friends were shown in the publishers accounting, but he is not counting them as meaningful sales.

Correct. I have not received this sales report yet, and I believe it will be accurate, the publisher just told me himself that no, Novelrank.com is not broken, there really has been no sales since that first week.

merrihiatt · Oct 15, 2013

veinglory said:
I think OP means these sales to friends were shown in the publishers accounting, but he is not counting them as meaningful sales.

Thanks. I think you're right upon re-reading the post.

Wanderingauthor · Oct 15, 2013

In the UK it costs just iunder 200 pounds to set yourself up as a publishing company. I have done so to self-publish my work. I will publish my work through Kindle, Createspace and so on, and through POD, and will take amazon's rather generous offer of 80 percent royalties for my ebooks
What concerns me is that the description you give of your publisher suggests they have no more experience in the market than I do and are using the same, freely available tools as you could have used had you self-published. And done zero marketing.
Not sure why they would do this. It doesn't sound as if your book is profiting them. Then again, it is cheeky to have asked you to put up money for copies.
My first question to them would be what advantage have they given you over and above self-publishing? If the answer is none, if you can, terminate the contract and self-publish or find another trade publisher who can offer you a service over and above what you would get by publishing your own work.

veinglory · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
The answers I've received so far are the usual old-publishing-world-is-dead rhetoric, that there is no point getting into bookstores, nobody attends readings, but surely there must be SOME way to sell books.

That would worry me more than anything else. If they won't or can't get into bookstores they need to get better at selling e-books and online POD.

Most of my books are e/POD and I have no trouble with that model. But they also sell at least a few hundred copies per title and usually more than that.

(Also, 20% of net? that is not a good royalty rate if it applies to your e-books. What cover price are they trying to charge?)

And my books that do get in bookstores, do sell there. That is, after all, what bookstores are for. Not being able to exploit this distribution channel is not a virtue, no matter what they might say.

Torgo · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
Yes, I will be asking these pointed questions. I honestly don't want to start a fight with my publisher, I just hope that their intention wasn't that they would recline back and earn their 80% of net based on me myself becoming an overnight sensation.

That would be idiotic of them if they had any stake in the book, so it's worth working out what they've actually done.

One thing about paying a reasonable-size advance is that now the publisher has to make that money back. If they've only committed $100, what's their incentive to do any work?

The answers I've received so far are the usual old-publishing-world-is-dead rhetoric, that there is no point getting into bookstores, nobody attends readings, but surely there must be SOME way to sell books.

Yep, because clearly people can and do make a living out of it. The bookstores are full of people selling books. But you do need to have some expertise, some resources, and a plan.

girlyswot · Oct 15, 2013

Did they commit any significant resources to the book prior to its publication? Editing, for instance. Professional cover art. All of those things would have cost them money which they ought to be working to recoup. You'd think that would be sufficient incentive for them to learn how to sell books.

Banjhakri · Oct 15, 2013

girlyswot said:
Did they commit any significant resources to the book prior to its publication? Editing, for instance. Professional cover art. All of those things would have cost them money which they ought to be working to recoup. You'd think that would be sufficient incentive for them to learn how to sell books.

A few bucks for cover art, yes, but both the copy editor and design person are onboard for a % of sales as their incentive. Currently, I appear to be the only person pushing the book, and that is physical copies I have obtained from CreateSpace, which I at least have a contract provision where I can purchase these at cost. So in that respect, the relationship is reducible to a self-published deal for me, but at the same time it is not, as if somebody, should somebody, buy the book direct from Amazon, I would get 20% of net.

K.B. Parker · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
Yes, I will be asking these pointed questions. I honestly don't want to start a fight with my publisher, I just hope that their intention wasn't that they would recline back and earn their 80% of net based on me myself becoming an overnight sensation.

The answers I've received so far are the usual old-publishing-world-is-dead rhetoric, that there is no point getting into bookstores, nobody attends readings, but surely there must be SOME way to sell books.

Doesn't sound like a legit publisher to me. There is merit to the argument that you don't need to be in bookstores but to say that there is no point to getting into bookstores, to me, is idiotic.

It seems to me that what has happened is that someone has self-published your work. I don't know if there is a difference in vocabulary in this instance, but it doesn't appear that they have actually done much of anything on your behalf.

I don't know the whole situation, so I may be off base, but I wouldn't choose to publish with them again. It seems like you could have done what they have without much additional effort (and kept the other 80%).

I'm interested in who this publisher is.

gingerwoman · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
It's pretty depressing thinking my novel will not be considered for any award,

It can be considered for awards if you submit for the awards. I know someone who sold about ten copies in her first year who submitted her book for a major award in romance and won.
You usually have to pay a small fee to enter contests, but then your work will be based on what the judges think of your book not on sales, or your publisher.

I'm often told the best way to sell more books is to write another book. Now I am with a more popular publisher the novella I have with a tiny publisher that no one used to buy has started to sell.

gingerwoman · Oct 15, 2013

K.B. Parker said:
Doesn't sound like a legit publisher to me. There is merit to the argument that you don't need to be in bookstores but to say that there is no point to getting into bookstores, to me, is idiotic.

It seems to me that what has happened is that someone has self-published your work. I don't know if there is a difference in vocabulary in this instance..

If the publisher is selective in what they choose to publish, and they edit the book and there are no charges to the author- then it is definitely not self publishing in any way shape or form. You can argue that it is no better than self publishing, or that the higher royalties for self publishing on the few books she has sold might have been better, but you shouldn't call it "self publishing."
Publishers that focus exclusively on eBook sales have been around a very long time long before the big wave of self publishing. They are legitimate as long as they don't pretend to be something that they are not.
Many of their authors have very small sales. Maybe a dozen digital first publishers have very good sales and authors who have hit the NYT and USA best seller list.
You have to do your research before submitting to any kind of publisher. (Sorry I'm not being unsympathetic to the OP, just explaining to others reading the thread.)

Old Hack · Oct 15, 2013

Banjhakri said:
I get that I'm supposed to be the champion of my own work, and sure, it's clear my efforts at promotion, blogging, articles, etc. have failed completely, my question, however, is whether I should be disappointed in my publisher for failing to promote or otherwise get my title out there in the wild world.

You should be very disappointed with your publisher. Those sales are dreadful, and not typical of working with a good publisher--even a small one.

Second, what is a tactful, assertive way of expressing my displeasure with my publisher's lack of investment? It's pretty depressing thinking my novel will not be considered for any award, appear on the bookshelves of any store, including Powell's Books, which is located in my hometown, and will not be seen by anyone who isn't standing right in front of my face looking at it in my own hand.

You just have to tell them you're disappointed, while remaining calm and polite.

But if their publishing habits were made clear to you before you signed up, you've got nothing to complain about.

Banjhakri said:
I'd be shunned and blacklisted if I ever did something so dastardly as self-publishing

Self publishing is perfectly respectable, and can be a really good way of getting your work to your readers. But this isn't self publishing. It's bad publishing.

Banjhakri said:
The answers I've received so far are the usual old-publishing-world-is-dead rhetoric, that there is no point getting into bookstores, nobody attends readings, but surely there must be SOME way to sell books.

If the old publishing world is dead how come it's still profitable, selling books, and launching new authors every week?

If there were no point getting books into bookshop shelves, publishers wouldn't do it. But not only do they do it, they make a lot of money doing it because bookshops sell books; and they are responsible for around 40% of online sales too.

You're being fed empty excuses, probably by people who don't know what they're talking about. I suspect they had little or no experience of working in publishing before they set up this publishing house.

K.B. Parker said:
It seems to me that what has happened is that someone has self-published your work. I don't know if there is a difference in vocabulary in this instance, but it doesn't appear that they have actually done much of anything on your behalf.

I don't think I understand your logic or your implications, KB: a publisher can't self publish someone else's work; and I'm concerned that you're implying that self publishers are inept. I might have misread that completely, and if so, I apologise: but please be thoughtful about what you say and how you say it. Thank you.

I'm interested in who this publisher is.

Me too.

gingerwoman · Oct 16, 2013

Old Hack said:
I don't think I understand your logic or your implications, KB: a publisher can't self publish someone else's work; and I'm concerned that you're implying that self publishers are inept.

.

I don't think he was saying that, I think what he was saying is that they did no more than put her book in ebook and POD as a service like Createspace might do, and left it at that, although this is not really true because they presumably provided the cover art, edited, formatted and provided distribution.
They just haven't provided any kind of promotion that works and maybe they haven't even provided proper distrbution, perhaps they have only put the book on Amazon and their website which would also make what K.B.Parker was saying have a grain of truth to it. I did read a post of Veinglory's awhile back mentioning there are some new rouge epubs that have sprung up since kindle made things easy, that basically just bang a vast quantity of other people's books up on Amazon and take their cut of any sales. That shouldn't cast a shadow on all the legitimate e-pubs out there.

Terie · Oct 16, 2013

gingerwoman said:
I don't think he was saying that, I think what he was saying is that they did no more than put her book in ebook and POD as a service like Createspace might do, and left it at that, although this is not really true because they presumably provided the cover art, edited, formatted and provided distribution.
They just haven't provided any kind of promotion that works and maybe they haven't even provided proper distrbution, perhaps they have only put the book on Amazon and their website which would also make what K.B.Parker was saying have a grain of truth to it. I did read a post of Veinglory's awhile back mentioning there are some new rouge epubs that have sprung up since kindle made things easy, that basically just bang a vast quantity of other people's books up on Amazon and take their cut of any sales. That shouldn't cast a shadow on all the legitimate e-pubs out there.

Self-publishing service providers provide services for a fee. They don't publish other people's work and pay the author royalties.

Since this publisher, whoever it is, is paying royalties, they are a publisher, not a self-publishing service provider.

Captcha · Oct 16, 2013

Is there an e-book strategy? It seems strange that a publisher who considers the 'old publishing world' dead wouldn't be pushing into e-books, but you don't mention them.

If the contract gives the publisher e-book rights, I'd push them to get working on making one available. If the contract leaves those rights with you, you might want to focus on how you'll use those rights. It may or may not be possible to find a publisher who wants just those rights, with a failed print experiment already underway, but even self-publishing the e-books would give you more exposure than you're getting this way.

Cathy C · Oct 16, 2013

I don't have much to add to the discussion about how your publisher is failing you. But if you're locked into your contract with them for an indeterminate future, there are a few things you can do to make some sales.

You mention Powell's Books is in your area. Do you know if your local store has one of the purple Espresso Book Machines?. If so, then you could do some targeted marketing in that store to direct people to your book on the machine. They're still new enough to be a novelty to people and you can capitalize on it by giving people a target book to try out on it. If your particular store doesn't have one, find the nearest store that does and spend some time there, getting to know the staff. Buy a few things and generally chat them up. You're looking to make a favorable impression to work with them to help sell your book.

It might also help you to understand how the book distribution process works. Here's an article I wrote about the process over on the Writer Beware blog. While you're over there, read some of the other posts. You'll learn a lot about the book process in general and what you can do to both get out of your current situation and protect yourself in the future.

Sorry you're stuck in this situation.

I hope you can put your book in a better situation to get some sales.

Banjhakri · Oct 16, 2013

Thanks everyone. Let me clarify. First, Gingerwoman

It can be considered for awards if you submit for the awards.

Thanks for this, it is good to know, and I will. Also, I have completed my second novel and on some days can manage to tell myself it will go better than the first (though on other days that voice burbles up and explains that the sales are a function of the prose quality...ugh). Also....

they did no more than put her book in ebook and POD as a service like Createspace might do, and left it at that, although this is not really true because they presumably provided the cover art, edited, formatted and provided distribution.

They did at least find two other people to put significant and unpaid work into editing and layout (and cover art), these people earning 15-20% royalties as their compensation. The layout looks good, the editing was so-so (I did find around 20 errors in re-reading it myself and hearing from friends). It is on their website, nowhere else. I should emphasize, however, that the professional gloss on the layout and design really does put my book into a category of professional appearance, above and beyond most self published POD books. The people working with this "press" have industry experience.

I think we are all captivated by this business model where the author gets a %, the editor a %, the layout guy a %, and the marketing/PR team a %. Currently, the press does not have a marketing/PR team. Maybe people who do marketing aren't as naive as the rest of us, eh? Ha ha.

Captcha:

Is there an e-book strategy

One of the reasons I don't want to "out" them here, the press is only about 2 years old, for one. But also, the layout person is dragging his feet terribly on doing a simple port to .mobi, and I have told him as much. Once it is listed as an ebook, I have no indication that anything changes as far as promotion, but it does seem silly to do anything major until that day comes, which is another reason I'm holding my breath still, six months out, for a time to come that we can collectively say "okay, it's corrected, it's in ebook format, let's spend some money on a marketing campaign." But again, I have no indication, and no contractual language, that indicates this ever could or will take place. I will be back to update this with any good news. It can only go uphill from here, right?

Cathy with a C:

Do you know if your local store has one of the purple Espresso Book Machines?.

I just about started knocking over bookshelves when I found out there is a $5.00 surcharge on every printed copy, regardless of quantity, until you get to really high quantity and then it is 10% off. Of course, the point is to kick out just one at a time, but still $5 as cost? And that is after set-up fees! When CreateSpace and LuLu comes to around $2.20? (before shipping, of course) Just too much of a fleecing, but you have a good point, it's still a novel/nascent thing and people are eager to play with it and I could get involved with the staff.

Your article and other posts I have lurked around and read here are invaluable, thanks for your contribution.

How Typical are my Sales Numbers and my Publisher?

Indie Published Li-Fi Author

volitare nequeo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

volitare nequeo

Indie Published Li-Fi Author

Writing! Writing! Writing!

volitare nequeo

volitare nequeo

Indie Published Li-Fi Author

Indie Published Li-Fi Author

Writing! Writing! Writing!

volitare nequeo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Indie Published Li-Fi Author

I've lost my mind

Such a nasty woman

Writer is as Writer does

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

Indie Published Li-Fi Author