Antique Guns

Kittens Starburst

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I know absolutely nothing about guns. I need to arm one of my characters with something small, pretty, antique and expensive, given to him mainly as a decorative gift. He'll be aiming down at someone from a crane or theatre rigging about 10 metres up. He manages to kill the victim by getting him in the chest, so I'm wondering what sort of damage the particular gun would do, i.e., would it be clean or messy (this might be a dumb ask, I really know nothing). Thanks!
 

Drachen Jager

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What kind of antique are we talking here, dueling pistol? Derringer? Old-West Colt with pearl-inlaid handle?

A derringer is certainly concealable, but I wouldn't count on hitting a target 10 metres away, especially if the shooter isn't experienced. Dueling pistols are very fancy, but pretty big. Most of them were only single shot as well.

So, would you be looking at a Wild West .45 or something classic like that? If so, the next think you need to know is the type of ammunition. Did the guy specifically buy something to kill with? If so, he probably went for an expanding round. That would punch a fairly small hole in the front, but leave a large exit wound (if it exits at all). Internally it would wreck someone pretty badly, but he's unlikely to get one of those 'instant kills' you see in the movies where the other guy simply drops. Even a lethal shot to the chest normally leaves the victim alive for a matter of minutes. Only serious heart or brain damage will kill (nearly) instantly.

patton%2Bsilver-plated%2Bcolt%2B45.jpg
 
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Christabelle

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I know absolutely nothing about guns. I need to arm one of my characters with something small, pretty, antique and expensive, given to him mainly as a decorative gift. He'll be aiming down at someone from a crane or theatre rigging about 10 metres up. He manages to kill the victim by getting him in the chest, so I'm wondering what sort of damage the particular gun would do, i.e., would it be clean or messy (this might be a dumb ask, I really know nothing). Thanks!
Does he plan on using this gift as a weapon, or is it a decoration he takes in the heat of the moment to kill the other party? I'm asking because if it were a gift/decoration, it wouldn't likely be loaded and if it were, the bullets would be so old they might not fire or might explode. (You may have already considered that, but just in case. :))

Drachen makes good points. What's your setting? Derringers are easily concealable but horrible with distance -- and not particularly accurate IMO. Dueling pistols are heavy -- but can be very pretty.

A medium caliber Colt or Smith & Wesson might do the trick. Do you need a revolver or a pistol?
 
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Kittens Starburst

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Great info, Drachen Jager. Thanks.

What kind of antique are we talking here, dueling pistol? Derringer? Old-West Colt with pearl-inlaid handle?

Lord, I'm not actually confident about what any of those things are, but, yes, it does have a pearl-inlaid handle. I didn't realise that was a common thing. Read about such a gun once in an Agatha Christie ... :D I love the gun you've shown me, which I assume has a pearl handle - or is it ivory? Doesn't matter, really. The wings design would be particularly apt for the scene I'm writing. Do guns like that have one-off designs or would it have been mass produced?

My story is set in Britain, but I don't suppose that would make any difference to the availability of those guns, especially not among the wealthy.

My character wouldn't have kept it on him specifically to kill someone. It's more of a fancy toy, something for the ego that can shoot if needs be.
 

Siri Kirpal

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I showed this thread to my husband. He wants to know what an expensive, decorative antique is doing up on a crane? He agrees with Drachen that a derringer would be dicey for accuracy at that range, and that Colts et al might not be concealable.

He disagrees with Christabelle that old bullets might explode. He's fired antique bullets without a problem. The main problem is that you can't use modern bullets in antique arms without problems and those might explode. Your character would need to know that not to cause a mess.

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Kittens Starburst

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Does he plan on using this gift as a weapon, or is it a decoration he takes in the heat of the moment to kill the other party? I'm asking because if it were a gift/decoration, it wouldn't likely be loaded and if it were, the bullets would be so old they might not fire or might explode. (You may have already considered that, but just in case. :))

He carries it because it's expensive, it makes him feel good. But he'd keep it loaded in case he ever needed to use it. Also, he might fancy taking potshots at animals and the like, just to show off.

Drachen makes good points. What's your setting? Derringers are easily concealable but horrible with distance -- and not particularly accurate IMO. Dueling pistols are heavy -- but can be very pretty.
He's up in a crane. The lack of ability to shoot from a distance is vital for the plot. It allows another character maximum time before the bad guy is capable of shooting him. The bad guy is getting lowered slowly in the crane. I know I made it sound in my OP that the bad guy will be at ten metres, but that's actually the highest height before he starts getting lowered in the crane. Definitely needs to be a small, concealable gun.

Do you need a revolver or a pistol?
I swear I've researched this, but I thought a revolver was a kind of pistol! Will research more.
 
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Christabelle

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I swear I've researched this, but I thought a revolver was a kind of pistol! Will research more.
A revolver IS a type of pistol, but it has a multi-round chamber. Many early guns were revolvers. A plain pistol would be a single shot weapon, like a Derringer (although many of those have two barrels). Unless he had a semi-automatic, which wouldn't be terribly pretty for someone who likes pearl handles and carvings :) - but there are some pretty ones, just more modern than you're probably going for - he'd have to reload after each shot or after each barrel was empty. A revolver would have more rounds available quickly (ever heard of a 6-shooter?).

He disagrees with Christabelle that old bullets might explode. He's fired antique bullets without a problem. The main problem is that you can't use modern bullets in antique arms without problems and those might explode. Your character would need to know that not to cause a mess.
MOST old ammo would be okay if stored properly. If the cases are cracked or moisture has gotten in, they would be more unstable and either not fire or potentially explode (more the case with warped casings than moisture).

Derringers are great for their small size and ability to be concealed. They're often called "pocket pistols." If you've already compensated for distance, and the bad guy is being lowered, this might be a good option. They can be pretty too. This is a single shot from Wikipedia. It was the one used to shoot Abraham Lincoln.

Booth_deringer.jpg
 
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Kittens Starburst

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Christabelle - you've made me want to give him the very gun that shot Abe Lincoln now. How horribly that would complicate my plot!

Thank you so much for the info, everyone. Going for a nice pearl-handled Derringer, which the bad guy will shoot when he's almost reached his victim. He actually misses by a fraction and shoots the wrong guy anyway, so this will work out nicely.
 

Christabelle

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Christabelle - you've made me want to give him the very gun that shot Abe Lincoln now. How horribly that would complicate my plot!

Thank you so much for the info, everyone. Going for a nice pearl-handled Derringer, which the bad guy will shoot when he's almost reached his victim. He actually misses by a fraction and shoots the wrong guy anyway, so this will work out nicely.
:D I think you might complicate things just a bit if you gave him that particular gun! But I like your choice of the pearl handled Derringer. Sounds great. Good luck!
 

Trebor1415

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Does the character with the gun actually carry it knowing he might possibly use it some day? A small pearl or ivory handled Derringer would be my last choice for that role, even if given as a gift, and it wouldn't have been an expensive gun in the first place.

I suppose it could have been made more expensive if it had been "tarted up" by being engraved, had Ivory or Mother of Pearl grips installed, etc.

I will say it does work if the character is a bit of a Dandy and especially if they don't really know anything about guns.

But, if the character is a shooter, he'd pick something else, anything else really. So, if it fits the character as someone who doesn't know about guns, and is a bit vain or superficial, than it works OK. If he's more of a realistic type knowledgeable about firearms, keep looking. The choice of gun does say something about the character so make sure it says what you want it to say.
 

CWatts

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Since your character is in the UK you could always go with a WW1 Webley. An officer could easily have one prettied up for him with nickel plating and a mother of pearl handle. It could have belonged to, say, a flying ace who could have been your character's distant relative or something.
 

Trebor1415

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Thank you so much for the info, everyone. Going for a nice pearl-handled Derringer, which the bad guy will shoot when he's almost reached his victim. He actually misses by a fraction and shoots the wrong guy anyway, so this will work out nicely.

Actually, I missed the reference to the Derringer being the old black powder model earlier. I was thinking of more modern two shot Derringers that use modern centerfire cartridges. (Still an old design, but not as old as a single shot black powder weapon).

No one, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, would carry an antique, single shot, blackpowder pistol in any sort of modern setting. Fancy gun or not, it just wouldn't happen. (And, those type of guns were typically not nickel plated or have customizable grips. The grips were wood and part of the structure of the gun. They weren't interchangeable. The metal would typically be blued, although it could be engraved.

In any event, if a character in a modern setting drew a single shot black powder pistol out of his coat with the intent to use it, the howls of laughter from anyone who knows about guns would be heard.

A better idea would be to have him use a more modern gun, that uses modern centerfire cartridge ammunition. If you want it to be "fancy" or expensive, have it be customized and engraved. Here's an example of a Model 1911 semi-auto and a S&W Military and Police revolver that were engraved and nickel plated for a police officer, probably about 40 years ago or so.

For your story something like this S&W would work. This is a six shot, medium frame ("K frame") revolver with a 2" barrel. Definitely small enough to carry and large enough to engrave and to install custom grips, etc.

Note that in this case only the grips were engraved. Many times though the whole gun would be engraved and that definitely would make it more expensive and fancier.

HPIM6093_zps20afb75a.jpg
 

Kittens Starburst

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Hmm, a lot of food for thought. At work so will read properly later. Main points are, the gun ought to be expensive or even, at the very least, personalised. Also vital that he can't hit his target till he's very close above, hence he doesn't try till my hero has managed to do the Very Important Things he's got to do. It's the climax moment of the story.

I'm writing humour - lots of complete silliness and surreal moments. The characters and their actions do not have to be technically realistic, so long as the unrealistic moments come across as intentional on my part. Reality slips around in the novel.

I will say it does work if the character is a bit of a Dandy and especially if they don't really know anything about guns.

But, if the character is a shooter, he'd pick something else, anything else really. So, if it fits the character as someone who doesn't know about guns, and is a bit vain or superficial, than it works OK. If he's more of a realistic type knowledgeable about firearms, keep looking. The choice of gun does say something about the character so make sure it says what you want it to say.
He's not only a dandy, he's a founder member of the Velvet Collar Dandies hell-raising university club!

He's definitely vain. It's not important that he should have a strong knowledge of firearms, though he does know how to shoot.
 

Trebor1415

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Ok, I've got an ever better gun candidate for you than the revolver I posted earlier.

This is a Colt Model 1903 .32 Automatic that was engraved and gold plated at the Colt Factory when it was manufactured around 1926.

Colt32goldplated_zps3609c173.jpg


Colt records indicate that only 27 guns were factory gold plated and engraved. That makes it rare and expensive and very unique. Further, the description says that "most" of the 27 were shipped outside the U.S. That would explain how he got it in the U.K. (Obviously, he wouldn't be the first owner. If he's not worried about UK gun laws he could have acquired it from the family of the original owner in a private, illegal, sale or even been given it as a gift. Or, heck, maybe he inherited it. If he "comes from money" I could see his Dad or Granddad buying this and passing it down).

A couple notes: The .32 Auto cartridge is a small cartridge designed for small concealable handguns. It doesn't have as much "stopping power" as larger caliber rounds, but will definitely kill someone if you hit them in the right place. This ammo is still being made.

The Colt Model 1903 .32 Automatic Pistol was a very popular design noted for it's reliability, sleek look, and slim design. It was from an era where guns were hand fitted by professionals and an engraved and gold plated example is as fine an example of the gun makers art as you will find.

This particular gun, being so rare, and being Gold plated and engraved, would definitely fit someone who is a bit of a Dandy and who wants to flaunt his wealth. Personally, I think it's perfect for the way you describe the character. It's also still a practical self defense pistol. (Not the best, but workable).

Note that guns like this are typically hoarded by collectors and not shot. But, he's vain enough to just carry it around due to his personal sense of style and not concerned about the "loss of value" from any wear on the gun like a collector would be. He's above such concerns and the money is triffling.

Note the small sights. That's how they were back then and it does make it more difficult to hit the target. That could help explain why he waits until close range and still hits the wrong guy.

Here's a couple links to the description of this gun and another one.

http://www.coltautos.com/cagotm201207.htm

http://www.coltautos.com/cagotm200308.htm
 
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skylark

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I'm slightly confused by when and where this is set, but if it's modern day Britain, he can't have been given a working firearm as a decorative gift. He'd need a firearms certificate and a reason to have one, and pistols which are even remotely modern (i.e. fire bullets rather than have to be loaded with the powder and ball separately) are banned altogether. (Some antiques are permitted). Carrying guns around as a status symbol is simply illegal.
 

Trebor1415

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I'm slightly confused by when and where this is set, but if it's modern day Britain, he can't have been given a working firearm as a decorative gift. He'd need a firearms certificate and a reason to have one, and pistols which are even remotely modern (i.e. fire bullets rather than have to be loaded with the powder and ball separately) are banned altogether. (Some antiques are permitted). Carrying guns around as a status symbol is simply illegal.


This assumes the character is concerned about following the law. If he's the villian in the story, and willing to commit crimes, it's not much of a stretch to assume he's willing to violate firearms laws as well.

As to how he got the gun, he could have inherited it from a relative who never registered it or turned it in (who essentially ignored the law) or received it as a gift from someone else involved in illegal activity, or purchased it outside the UK and arranged to have it smuggled in.

Heck, he could have received it as a gift from someone outside the country who isn't aware of the UK firearms laws (or doesn't care) and who arranged to have it smuggled in for him. Anyone rich and corrupt would do.

The one thing he COULDN'T do would be buy it publically, at say an auction, and then legally have it in his possession in the UK. The sale or gift would have to be "under the RADAR" as it were.
 

Kittens Starburst

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Heh, this guy can do whatever he wants. He and his pals make all the rules. The setting of the story is also an alternative version of Britain.

Trebor, thanks for all your help. You've given me loads of great stuff to work with. :)