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escritora
10-11-2013, 07:42 PM
Does a princess born into the royal family have a coronation? If so...

1. Is she called a princess before the coronation?
2. What does a princess coronation consist of? (a crown a place on her head and what else? is there something the king / queen say? does the princess speak?

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 07:45 PM
Not here certainly. Only one person gets a coronation and that's the Monarch.

Which country are you talking about specifically?

escritora
10-11-2013, 07:53 PM
Which country are you talking about specifically?

It's for a picture book so there is no country, per se.

I had an idea that won't fly if there's no such thing as a princess coronation.

Thanks for responding so quickly.

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 07:56 PM
That's fine. There is no Coronation. The daughter of a Monarch is a Princess the moment she is born.

melindamusil
10-11-2013, 09:49 PM
Escritora- do you need to specifically refer to the country or can you be ambiguous?
One of my favorite stories growing up was "The Twelve Dancing Princesses", which I believe is a Brothers Grimm short story. There's absolutely no mention of the nation - just a king, twelve princesses, twelve princes, and a soldier.

veinglory
10-11-2013, 10:12 PM
No, a coronation is for when you become ruler. She had been a princess from birth so there is not time when that "happens".

melindamusil
10-11-2013, 10:19 PM
No, a coronation is for when you become ruler. She had been a princess from birth so there is not time when that "happens".

Another idea - instead of calling it a coronation, could you come up with a different name for the ceremony? Like the accession ceremony... or the princess' crowning... It would still involve putting a crown/tiara onto the princess, with everyone dressing up and parades and some guy making pronouncements in a church and anything else you want... just a different name.

veinglory
10-11-2013, 10:25 PM
It could be a coming of age ceremony where she takes on some actual responsibilities and/or becomes illegible for marriage.

melindamusil
10-11-2013, 10:31 PM
It could be a coming of age ceremony where she takes on some actual responsibilities and/or becomes illegible for marriage.

+1 to this. You know, it could even just be a celebration of the princess' 16th birthday (or 12th birthday or whatever fits best with your story).

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 10:32 PM
That would just be a birthday party here. Like any other 16 year olds.

jvc
10-11-2013, 10:32 PM
You could have an "investiture" like the ones the prince of wales goes through.

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 10:33 PM
No. You couldn't. Unless you're only selling this in America

jvc
10-11-2013, 10:35 PM
Why not?

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 10:39 PM
Because the only one that gets an investiture is the Prince of Wales. Who is a Prince, not a Princess.

I'm sorry, but this idea just isn't going to work. It's a bitch but that's life.

melindamusil
10-11-2013, 10:39 PM
That would just be a birthday party here. Like any other 16 year olds.

IMO - That's why it shouldn't be set in a specific location. Just some random kingdom, with a few castles and a royal family.

But then again I'm not even the OP. So what do I know?

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 10:45 PM
A few castles = European.

jvc
10-11-2013, 10:45 PM
Because the only one that gets an investiture is the Prince of Wales. Who is a Prince, not a Princess.

I'm sorry, but this idea just isn't going to work. It's a bitch but that's life.
Well, that's that then. We must just accept that's life.

Or, maybe, accept that it's fiction and you can do what the hell you like in fiction. If you want to have a princess of wales having an investiture as the eldest child of the British Monarch, who will then have precedence over younger male siblings, then why not? With the rules they are proposing at the moment, that may actually become real life fact in the years to come.

Also, the OP said there isn't actually a country. So it can be a made up country with made up rules. And I said an investiture "like" the ones a prince of wales goes through.

IMO - That's why it shouldn't be set in a specific location. Just some random kingdom, with a few castles and a royal family.

But then again I'm not even the OP. So what do I know?
Nope, I agree with you melindamusil.

mirandashell
10-11-2013, 10:46 PM
I'm editing this cos it's not worth the argument.

Escorita, it's up to you. It totally depends on how much eye rolling and Twitter-bitching you want your readers to do.

jvc
10-11-2013, 11:59 PM
Mirandashell, you are right.

Jed - fiction writer.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 12:06 AM
Whatever.

Medievalist
10-12-2013, 12:09 AM
1. Primogeniture is not the only way.

2. Primogeniture was not the only way even in Britain.

3. Coronations have been used historically to endow a consort (i.e. when she is a Princess vs. a Queen or a prince vs a King) with regal power and authority.

4. Not only is Britain not the only monarchy in Europe, Europe doesn't have a lock-down on monarchies.

5. It's fiction

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 12:13 AM
I did ask if it was based on a European monarchy.

evilrooster
10-12-2013, 12:13 AM
Even after fifteen years in Scotland, I can't say I would roll my eyes or bitch on Twitter about the investiture of a princess in a fictional country as part of a fairy tale. The country I live in now (the Netherlands) managed a change of monarch with minimal ceremonial brouhaha (though we did have quite a party). But that's not to say that a fictional country couldn't make the princess's coming of age into a big thing, with a ceremony and a new title and a crown.

If it suits the story, make it happen. It sounds like fun.

escritora
10-12-2013, 12:18 AM
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I'll forgo the coronation idea. I realize it's fiction, but the nonfiction writer in me isn't comfortable with the idea. I'll think of another idea that isn't ceremonial based.

evilrooster
10-12-2013, 12:22 AM
How about a religious ceremony like a confirmation?

escritora
10-12-2013, 12:38 AM
It's a picture book and a religious component probably won't be marketable mainstream. (I'm an atheist as well and...well, it wouldn't feel right.)

I'm trying to stay away from played out themes -- royal ball, tea party -- and the coronation idea popped in my head. The event isn't the main part of the story. It plays a small part actually. Most any type of event -- play date, birthday party, etc., -- can work. Picture books aren't long so the event will only be 50 words out of 500 words.

Fenika
10-12-2013, 12:50 AM
A question you could ask yourself, is what are you trying to convey. So, if you are trying to convey an important event for a princess in a fictional country, that could be related to by non-royalty girls (and boys), regardless of what country they are in, how might you do that (or whatever you want to convey exactly).

So if you want her to have responsibility, maybe there's a ceremony where she gets a horse/dog/falcon of her own if those are important parts of her fictional country that would be linked to coming of age.

If you just want coming of age, model it after another event, like the... 16yo birthday party in Mexico. Even if it's roughly European, having a coming of age is a loose concept that can happen anywhere where the culture considers this important (either for all girls or just royal girls). This could be an old or new tradition. Maybe she's the first, because her mother decreed it.

Basically, look at your culture and your message and decide :)

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 12:54 AM
If you are basing this on European royalty, an 18th birthday would be quite a big deal. She would become a legal adult and if the Royals are well liked, then it would be an event for everyone. It just wouldn't be an official celebration like a Coronation or an Investiture.

But it would be a big deal in her life.

jvc
10-12-2013, 12:55 AM
You can do what you want in your own story. It's fiction, after all. And you make the rules. If you want a fictional kingdom, where, when the daughter of the monarch reaches the age of 5/6/7/10 etc, they are given a ceremony and the title of princess is bestowed on her, and a mini-crown is placed upon her head as all her friends watch in envy, then that is up to you. And would work very well, me thinks.

Fran
10-12-2013, 01:08 AM
Perhaps if the princess was adopted? This has never happened to my knowledge in any monarchy, European or otherwise (cue an avalanche of links to prove me wrong :D), but if she wasn't born "royal" they may have to do something to confirm her claim to the title. No idea if that would fit with your story or not but it could be worth considering. :)

Cyia
10-12-2013, 01:10 AM
Not sure if it would work or not, but how about an adoption that leads to the girl being "made" a princess? Maybe she's not the reigning monarch's child, but is a niece or cousin who is the sole royal in line for the crown of your kingdom, so she's officially made the heir apparent or something like that. Or, you could go the Princess Diary route and make her half-royal and recently claimed by her royal side as an official heir to maintain the family line. Something like that might necessitate a ceremony.

(Ha! Cross-posted with Fran.)

ULTRAGOTHA
10-12-2013, 01:13 AM
But that's not to say that a fictional country couldn't make the princess's coming of age into a big thing, with a ceremony and a new title and a crown.

The Sleeping Beauty ballet makes a big deal of Aurora's birthday party.

Even in Britain debutant parties were Really Big Deals. Maybe she gets to wear a royal coronet for the first time at her debutant party.

In my story, there's a big party for every high-born girl at her debut and a big party for every male heir at his confirmation (not a religious confirmation, it has to do with the land magic in my story) and a big-but-not-quite-as-big party for younger sons when they reach their majorities.

Or maybe she is the heir to her fairy tale Kingdom and on the day of her coming-of-age, when there needn't be a regency for her any more if her reigning parent dies, she gets a whomping big party and a Royal diadem to signify her new status.

Maybe boys get this, too, if they are the heirs.

Maybe in this Kingdom the Royal Heir becomes the Prince/ss of Aberstein when s/he reaches hir majority, regardless of sex.

Maybe in your culture, children have a big celebration when they turn double digits (10) or twice-seven, or three-threes, and since she's a Royal Princess she gets a Royal coronet then, too.

I agree a coronation is only for a monarch. But I would think even Brits would be fine with something like any of the above in a fairy tale.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:14 AM
Yeah, absolutely.

I've not said in this thread that no princess could have a party. Just not a Coronation or an Investiture as the Prince of Wales. But a birthday party would work fine.

Belle_91
10-12-2013, 01:14 AM
I like the idea of tying it in with what they do in Mexico, the quinceanera. Perhaps you could have a combination of the two, the coronation and then the party afterwards.

It kind of reminds of Walt Disney's version of Sleeping Beauty where they were supposed to have that big party in the kingdom on her 16th birthday (before everything goes to hell, and the kingdom is surrounded by thorns). Anyways, I know it's because she was hidden away for so long, but it could be something to go on.

For me, I see no problem with it because it's based on a fairy tale. If you were writing historical fiction or a modern day story about a royal princess, then I would steer you in a different direction.

The quinceanera or the debute party could be really sweet though. There's typically a dance with the girl and her father that could be very sweet moment.

Just my sappy two cents.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:16 AM
You can't have a Coronation for a Princess. I'm sorry, but you really can't. Coronations are just for the Monarch.

Cyia
10-12-2013, 01:18 AM
You can't have a Coronation for a Princess. I'm sorry, but you really can't. Coronations are just for the Monarch.


See, now I'm envisioning a Children of the Corn scenario where the Princess IS the monarch because they consider Kings and Queens to be old.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:19 AM
Well.... then she would be the Queen.

jvc
10-12-2013, 01:21 AM
Yeah, absolutely.

I've not said in this thread that no princess could have a party. Just not a Coronation or an Investiture as the Prince of Wales. But a birthday party would work fine.
Well, in a fictional Britain where it had been decided the eldest, no matter if it were a girl or boy, would inherit, then a girl could have an investiture as 'princess' of wales.

jvc
10-12-2013, 01:23 AM
Well.... then she would be the Queen.
Well, it could be a Principality.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:23 AM
No she couldn't.

Just because the primogeniture no longer depends on gender, doesn't mean that every title also changes. It may do, it may not. There may be a different title. That question won't arise until the first born is a girl. And that will be at leat another generation away.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:24 AM
Well, it could be a Principality.

No it couldn't.

Please, JVC, do some research.

Belle_91
10-12-2013, 01:27 AM
You could make your own tradition with a combination of elements from coronations, quinceaneras, debutant balls...Just pull elements and mix them together.

Again, you said that this is a fairy tale designed for children. I would say you could certainly bend some of the accuracy, as it is fictional.

If you do want it to be accurate, then you could have her become queen. However, I know when I was younger, I probably associated a queen with an older woman. I grew up watching Disney movies, so I didn't know about how young Queen Elizabeth I and Victoria were until I got older. For me (when I was younger), and I expect a lot of young children (especially here in America), a queen in a motherly figure, probably one I couldn't have identified with.

melindamusil
10-12-2013, 01:27 AM
Perhaps if the princess was adopted? This has never happened to my knowledge in any monarchy, European or otherwise (cue an avalanche of links to prove me wrong :D), but if she wasn't born "royal" they may have to do something to confirm her claim to the title. No idea if that would fit with your story or not but it could be worth considering. :)

I've read that, more than 100 years or so ago, when the pregnant queen went into labor, a bunch of consorts (or other powerful men) would come into the "delivery room" and watch the baby's birth, just to ensure that the baby prince or princess is the same one that came out of the queen.

You could have some kind of conspiracy where the princess is accused of not being the real princess, and the king/queen have some kind of ceremony to guarantee her place in the royal family.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:30 AM
You could make your own tradition with a combination of elements from coronations, quinceaneras, debutant balls...Just pull elements and mix them together.




Sounds like a lot of work for 50 words out of 500. I would just make it a party.

Cyia
10-12-2013, 01:35 AM
Sounds like a lot of work for 50 words out of 500. I would just make it a party.


Wait... is this a picture book? I think I missed that post.

Belle_91
10-12-2013, 01:35 AM
Sounds like a lot of work for 50 words out of 500. I would just make it a party.

Well, there could also be some sort of ceremony to it. Not just dancing around for the heck of it.

My aunt's partner was debuted when she was younger, and she talked about the things they had to do like preform a deep curtsy in which you pretty much knelt all the way to the floor. It paints a very pretty picture, but it must have been hard to do in those puffy dresses.

That's one thing you could talk about. Maybe there's also a big dinner involved and she has to learn which fork to use when a certain dish is prevented. Or maybe she has to give a little speech on the new responsibilities she's going to have.

There's a number of different things that the OP could do with this.

ULTRAGOTHA
10-12-2013, 01:40 AM
No it couldn't.

Please, JVC, do some research.

Research an alternate history of Britain? How would JVC do that, exactly?

In my alternate history of Britain, the King's eldest son isn't even guaranteed to be the next King.

There's no reason why in someone else's alternate history of Britain couldn't have the eldest (or only) daughter of the King be invested as the Princess of Wales....

...Or the eldest (or only) daughter of the Prince of Monaco have a coronation ceremony as she becomes the reigning Princess of Monaco. Or Lichtenstein, or Andorra or Elsewherestein.

You're putting an awfully heavy burden of Brit-centric reality on someone else's fairy tale.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:41 AM
My aunt's partner was debuted when she was younger, and she talked about the things they had to do like preform a deep curtsy in which you pretty much knelt all the way to the floor. It paints a very pretty picture, but it must have been hard to do in those puffy dresses.

That's one thing you could talk about. Maybe there's also a big dinner involved and she has to learn which fork to use when a certain dish is prevented. Or maybe she has to give a little speech on the new responsibilities she's going to have

She's a Princess. She'd already know how to do this.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:44 AM
You're putting an awfully heavy burden of Brit-centric reality on someone else's fairy tale.


Exactly. It's some one else's fairy tale and JVC is coming up with ideas about British royalty that will make people roll their eyes.

It's up to Escritoria.

Cyia
10-12-2013, 01:45 AM
There's no reason why in someone else's alternate history of Britain couldn't have the eldest (or only) daughter of the King be invested as the Princess of Wales....


But she wouldn't be Princess of Wales, would she? She'd be Princess Royal.

Belle_91
10-12-2013, 01:47 AM
Again this is a children's book. Yes, in reality a princess at 12 would probably know how to do all of this. But this is a children's book and isn't even based off of a real country. Also, I'm sure when Prince William or even his cousin, Princess Beatrice had one of their first formal engagements they were a bit nervous. It's a lot to take in.

This isn't a novel; it's a picture book designed for children. I don't think it needs to be that heavily based on reality. I'm pretty sure Kate Middleton's BFF isn't a bird or a bunch of house hold appliances that come to life at night, but in the world of fiction such things can happen. Especially if this world of fiction is designed for little ones.

I would stay away from using titles from real monarchies, however. You probably should make up your own, and not call her the Princess of Wales. It should be the Princess of _____ (insert name of your made up land).

jvc
10-12-2013, 01:48 AM
No it couldn't.

Please, JVC, do some research.
:roll:

At the end of the day this is a work of fiction. The OP can take elements from the various monarchies and principalities from around the world and merge them together to create her/his own fictional kingdom with its own rules and procedures. If the OP wants her MC to have a party when she turns 5 where she gets her own crown (a mini version of the one her mother/father wears) and have the title of princess bestowed on her, then that can happen. There is no rule on this planet that says it can't.

If someone wants to write a full blown novel set in a parallel universe where in Britain Prince William and Kate (who has yet to have the title of princess bestowed on her by the Queen) didn't give birth to a boy, but gave birth to a girl instead, and then have William become King, and have an investiture ceremony for his daughter so she becomes the Princess of Wales (instead of a Prince of Wales) as his oldest, and perhaps only, heir to the throne, then that can happen too.

It's fiction. In fiction you make shit up.

Fenika
10-12-2013, 01:50 AM
This prolly won't fit the story, but continuing the speculative side of this, the princess could be from a country recently destroyed by war. She could then be adopted by a royal family from a neighboring country (with close or distant relations) and the ruling monarch could officially adopt her in a ceremony. Since she's already the princess of the destroyed country, she would be given suitable title(s) and gifts for her new home.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:51 AM
Escritoria wants an idea for 50 words out of 500 in a picture book. So she doesn't really need to change the traditions and history of a country that is way older than yours, JVC. And I don't just mean the countries in Britain.

mirandashell
10-12-2013, 01:55 AM
Ah fuck it. This isn't worth the stress.

Escritoria, do what you want to do.

I'm out.

Belle_91
10-12-2013, 01:56 AM
But she NEVER said that the story was going to take place in real country such as England or Denmark. She said that there was no country par se, just a made up land with a castle. I've seen that done hundreds of times before in picture books, and no one bats an eye.

Calla Lily
10-12-2013, 02:03 AM
Fiction. It's fiction.

It's fiction.

The only important rule is "It has to make sense within the worldbuilding."

AW Admin
10-12-2013, 02:14 AM
Ah fuck it. This isn't worth the stress.

Escritoria, do what you want to do.

I'm out.

Yes you are.

ULTRAGOTHA
10-12-2013, 02:19 AM
But she wouldn't be Princess of Wales, would she? She'd be Princess Royal.

In reality right now, Princess Anne is the Princess Royal. There can't be another in her lifetime, regardless of who is on the throne or what sex hir children are. Princess Elizabeth (now Queen Elizabeth) was never the Princess Royal because Princess Mary held that title from before Princess Elizabeth's father became King until well after HRM Elizabeth was Queen.

In reality now even if the only children of the monarch are girls (HRHs Elizabeth and Margaret, frex) the female Heir Apparent will not be invested as the Princess of Wales (though any daughters of the Prince of Wales would be styled Princess NNN of Wales--no investiture or coronation, though).

In an alternate history, or at this point a potential future, there's no reason an author couldn't decide that if the eldest child of the Monarch happens to be female that she could be invested as Princess of Wales in her own right.

It probably won't work for what we know of the OP in this thread. But there's nothing to stop someone from doing it (or, for all I know, having done it already). It's fiction.

Just because the Witanagemot has the right to elect the successor to the Holy English Emperor in my alternate history doesn't mean I don't understand the Bill of Rights 1689, the Act of Settlement 1701, the Act of Union 1800, the Perth Agreement and the Succession to the Crown Act 2013. I can muck about with British succession law if I want to.

evilrooster
10-12-2013, 02:25 AM
One possibility for having such a ceremony would be if the princess in question had been the eldest daughter of the Crown Prince(ss) in a country with primogeniture. When the ruling monarch died or abdicated, her parents would ascend the throne and she would then receive the title Crown Princess.

This happened earlier this year in the Netherlands. Queen Beatrix ceded the throne to her son Willem-Alexander, who had been Prince of Orange. His eldest daughter, Catharina-Amalia, then became Princess of Orange.

In this particular case, Willem-Alexander didn't want a big ceremony, so none of these title-passings was that big or dramatic. But in another time, or with another king, it would be perfectly possible for the new heiress apparent to receive her title with a good deal of ceremony, either at the same time as her parents ascended the throne, or after a suitable delay to drag out the festivities.