Amazon quietly removes objectionable ebooks

Torgo · Oct 10, 2013

In the last few days, there's been some viral giggling on Twitter and elsewhere about the 'Dinosaur Erotica' genre, which turns out to be a thing (who knew?) on Kindle. Thriller writer Jeremy Duns had a click through the 'People Also Bought' links and found himself disappearing down a rabbit-hole of rather dodgier material. There's a writeup over here at Kernel magazine.

The sort of thing we're talking about is very grimy incest porn - I won't repeat any of the titles here at the roundtable, but Kernel lists some of the titles and descriptions. It's the kind of stuff that would appear to violate Amazon's content guidelines (though they tend to try to sidestep them.) Since the Kernel article went up, Amazon have quietly removed hundreds of Kindle Editions from sale.

To me, this highlights the problems Amazon seem to have in moderating the products they have on sale. Clearly they can't pre-vet everything; but this means this sort of thing will just go on and on.

bearilou · Oct 10, 2013

Ms Leigh shares her name with an occupational health nurse for the US government who lives with her husband and four children in Indiana and who writes erotic fiction.

While that's not untrue (according to the author's biography on her webpage), it really bothers me that it appears that Jeremy ~~Dun~~ Wilson is calling her out to name and shame her. He couldn't have left it with just leaving the author's name?

It's not doxing, I guess, but the element of finger-wagging kind of bugs me.

Torgo · Oct 10, 2013

bearilou said:
While that's not untrue (according to the author's biography on her webpage), it really bothers me that it appears that Jeremy Dun is calling her out to name and shame her. He couldn't have left it with just leaving the author's name?

It's not doxing, I guess, but the element of finger-wagging kind of bugs me.

It is kind of doxing, isn't it? I'm not comfortable with that either, to be honest.

I should point out it isn't Duns writing the article - Kernel just picked up on what he was saying on Twitter.

bearilou · Oct 10, 2013

Torgo said:
It is kind of doxing, isn't it? I'm not comfortable with that either, to be honest.

I guess the argument could be made that since that information is on her website, he's not exactly outing her. :/

Torgo said:
I should point out it isn't Duns writing the article - Kernel just picked up on what he was saying on Twitter.

That was my bad. I pseudo fixed it. I claim waiting impatiently for my coffee. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bearilou · Oct 10, 2013

We have two small discussions about the Amazon crackdown in the Erotica section:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278401

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278414

Selena Kitt talks about it on her website. (link found in the OP of the second discussion)

Just for some more reading on the matter in general.

Ken · Oct 10, 2013

... only novels that are moral and squeaky clean should be sold on Amazon.

That's my story and I'm not sticking to it.

;-)

lolchemist · Oct 10, 2013

I HAVE seen some *OMGWTF BACK-CLICK, DELETE HISTORY AND HOPE THE FBI DOESN'T FIND ME!!!!!* stuff on Amazon before and I do believe that some of those things probably violated obscenity laws.

It sucks because situations like this always have the "People should be able to write whatever they want" part of me colliding with the "BUT OMG WHY WOULD ANYONE WRITE THAT THOUGH???" part of me.

So I guess I'm glad Amazon is cracking down but they should make sure what they're "cracking down" on really DOES fit the legal definition of obscene though. I'm humble enough to admit that just because I don't like something doesn't mean other people should have to live by my sensibilities. If some random stranger somewhere on this planet wants to wank it to grandpa-dino-incest-porn, and they're not hurting anyone, it's really none of my business.

And the guy who wrote these articles seems waaaay too "I'm clutching my pearls"-y to me. It's like RELAX, it's fucking PORN in written format that most people can't even directly access. And it's been on the internet for free basically since the internet was born.

Cyia · Oct 10, 2013

If there's a TOS in place, and the offensive material violates it, then it's fairly simple. Even if the TOS is no kids wearing yellow sweaters or dogs that can fly. You agree to follow it when you put your materials up for sale, and if you break that agreement, you've got no room to complain when it's enforced.

Of course, I also thought all of the dino-talk the last few days was a joke, so what do I know?

bearilou · Oct 10, 2013

lolchemist said:
It sucks because situations like this always have the "People should be able to write whatever they want" part of me colliding with the "BUT OMG WHY WOULD ANYONE WRITE THAT THOUGH???" part of me.

As someone who writes erotica under another name, I'm the same way. heheh

At first, the monsterotica had me all

and then when I thought about it, I was more :idea:

.

Cyia said:
If there's a TOS in place, and the offensive material violates it, then it's fairly simple. Even if the TOS is no kids wearing yellow sweaters or dogs that can fly. You agree to follow it when you put your materials up for sale, and if you break that agreement, you've got no room to complain when it's enforced.

On a thread at the Kboards, there are authors complaining about their books getting hit and that they have nothing to do with romance or erotica so they're not even sure why they were blocked/banned. So innocent books appear to be getting hit.

sarahdalton · Oct 10, 2013

You know, it takes about 10 hours for a book to be 'approved' when publishing on KDP, so it begs the question... what do they actually do to approve the books? Who or what vets them?

There's a fine line between a harmless niche and obscene. I wouldn't even know where to begin with that one.

PS not clicked on the link because I'm at work and scared!

Marian Perera · Oct 10, 2013

lolchemist said:
And it's been on the internet for free basically since the internet was born.

Exactly. Back in the day, father-daughter torture porn was available if you knew which dark corners of the internet to look in (IIRC, at least one such example was a Darth Vader-Princess Leia fic).

lolchemist · Oct 10, 2013

Cyia said:
If there's a TOS in place, and the offensive material violates it, then it's fairly simple. Even if the TOS is no kids wearing yellow sweaters or dogs that can fly. You agree to follow it when you put your materials up for sale, and if you break that agreement, you've got no room to complain when it's enforced.

Oh yeah that's true too! Just because you have the right to write it doesn't mean Amazon is obligated to sell it.

But yeah I don't even see what the problem with the monster-porn is. Twilight was basically monster porn minus the good parts.

Torgo · Oct 10, 2013

lolchemist said:
Oh yeah that's true too! Just because you have the right to write it doesn't mean Amazon is obligated to sell it.

But yeah I don't even see what the problem with the monster-porn is. Twilight was basically monster porn minus the good parts.

I don't think anyone really had a problem with the monster porn - there was just some giggling about it - but the rape/incest porn feels like a bridge too far for Amazon.

Phaeal · Oct 10, 2013

Queen of Swords said:
Exactly. Back in the day, father-daughter torture porn was available if you knew which dark corners of the internet to look in (IIRC, at least one such example was a Darth Vader-Princess Leia fic).

I used to ship Vader and Leia, but I swear, Amazon, it was before I knew they were father and daughter!!!

Torgo · Oct 10, 2013

sarahdalton said:
You know, it takes about 10 hours for a book to be 'approved' when publishing on KDP, so it begs the question... what do they actually do to approve the books? Who or what vets them?

I don't think they do much vetting. I wouldn't be surprised if it's largely or entirely automated.

bearilou · Oct 10, 2013

Phaeal said:
I used to ship Vader and Leia, but I swear, Amazon, it was before I knew they were father and daughter!!!

Don't let Jeremy Wilson hear that or you'll get a finger wag from him.

veinglory · Oct 10, 2013

Cyia said:
If there's a TOS in place, and the offensive material violates it, then it's fairly simple.

Amazon TOS re: offensive material is: "Offensive material: What we deem offensive is probably about what you would expect."

Helpful this is not.

veinglory · Oct 10, 2013

lolchemist said:
Oh yeah that's true too! Just because you have the right to write it doesn't mean Amazon is obligated to sell it.

True, but where they draw the line is very important. And they seem to generally try and draw it at the US legal definition of obscenity when it come to text/prose. Thus sex in itself is not treated as obscene.

lolchemist · Oct 10, 2013

veinglory said:
True, but where they draw the line is very important. And they seem to generally try and draw it at the US legal definition of obscenity when it come to text/prose. Thus sex in itself is not treated as obscene.

Yeah, it seems to me like they only react when someone throws a shit-fit online like this guy did. I remember about 10-ish years ago there was a kerfluffle about an angry mother finding out that her kid had ordered what turned out to be a Japanese comic book with gay teenager sex in it and those got removed from the site pretty quickly too. (And I think now they are back LOL!)

It seems like they're kind of following the path of least resistance on this. If someone freaks out, just get rid of the book and move on kind of thing, they have a billion other books to make up the difference.

gothicangel · Oct 10, 2013

Question: would we still be having this conversation if it was Waterstone's saying 'we don't want to sell this book?'

As much as I loathe to support Amazon, its their prerogative about what books they want to sell, as much as brick and mortar store does. I don't see this as censorship . . . yet.

veinglory · Oct 10, 2013

lolchemist said:
It seems like they're kind of following the path of least resistance on this. If someone freaks out, just get rid of the book and move on kind of thing, they have a billion other books to make up the difference.

The precedents for successful prosecution are sex+underage and sex+incest, hence their focus on those issues for any book not of easily proven "literary merit"

veinglory · Oct 10, 2013

gothicangel said:
Question: would we still be having this conversation if it was Waterstone's saying 'we don't want to sell this book?'

As much as I loathe to support Amazon, its their prerogative about what books they want to sell, as much as brick and mortar store does. I don't see this as censorship . . . yet.

I think we would if the vacillated and used bogus criteria like this. The difference is Waterstone's would probably use a decision made by a person--Amazon uses key words. This leads to mondo false positives and much annoyance.

Deleted member 42 · Oct 10, 2013

Torgo said:
It is kind of doxing, isn't it? I'm not comfortable with that either, to be honest.

I'm not at all comfortable with that either.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 10, 2013

Writers can write whatever they wish. Publishers can reject whatever they wish, distributors can refuse to distribute whatever they wish, and retailers can refuse to sell whatever they wish.

Freedom either works both way, or there is no freedom.

calieber · Oct 10, 2013

gothicangel said:
Question: would we still be having this conversation if it was Waterstone's saying 'we don't want to sell this book?'

Waterstones has a practical limitation on what they can carry. Amazon doesn't have to exclude anything (except illegal things).

veinglory said:
I think we would if the vacillated and used bogus criteria like this. The difference is Waterstone's would probably use a decision made by a person--Amazon uses key words. This leads to mondo false positives and much annoyance.

I'm reminded of an incident a few years ago when books on feminism and LGBT issues were all flagged as "adult."

Amazon quietly removes objectionable ebooks

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