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raburrell
09-25-2013, 07:21 PM
Hi all,
I'm doing some research on a story partly set in Syria and trying to identifying the weapons shown in the link below - could some kind soul who knows more about military hardware than I do give me some idea of what the guns are pictured in the link below?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/12/sources-cia-delivering-light-weapons-to-syrian-rebels/

(The picture I'm interested in is the still shot on the video when the page loads - I don't think it actually appears in the vid itself)

Thank you.

Xelebes
09-25-2013, 07:26 PM
One looks close to an M249 SAW. I only say this because it was one of the guns on Soldier of Fortune II: Double Helix.

lol

raburrell
09-25-2013, 07:41 PM
Excellent - thanks, Xel :)

Christabelle
09-25-2013, 07:43 PM
I can ask my husband this evening if you haven't gotten both answered.

raburrell
09-25-2013, 07:57 PM
Thank you, Christabelle :)

Trebor1415
09-25-2013, 11:18 PM
It's not a M 249 SAW.

The large machine gun is a Russian PK or PKM (can't tell for sure) MG chambered in the old 7.62x54R cartridge.

http://world.guns.ru/machine/rus/kalashnikov-pk-pkm-e.html

The rifle with the scope appears to be a FN FAL. These were used by about 90 countries and there are a large number of variants.

EDIT: Just for general info, Syria was largely armed with Soviet bloc supplied weapons, as Syria was a "client state" of the old USSR. That's where the Pk/PKM comes from.

The FN FAL was generally used by Western armies, such as the UK, Belgium, South Africa, Canada, etc., (Not the U.S. though, we used the M-14).

The FAL was so common though that it can, and does, turn up anywhere. And, even though it was generally used by "Western" forces, sometimes governments such as Syria might be a few for more elite forces or trials or something. No way to really know how that one got there though.

raburrell
09-25-2013, 11:30 PM
Excellent - thank you very much, Trebor. Very helpful information, and thank you also for the link. :)

Drachen Jager
09-26-2013, 01:01 AM
Yep, I second Trebor's analysis. The top certainly looks Russian.

I'm not so sure about the bottom being a FAL. It's a 7.62 NATO weapon for sure, but I've never seen a FAL with a thin rounded forestock like that. I don't think there would be enough room for the piston on a FAL inside that stock. Could be an AR 10, I suppose.

raburrell
09-26-2013, 05:24 AM
Thank you, Drachen - much appreciated.

I was relatively certain the larger one was Russian, which seems like a strange choice for an article about the CIA arming weapons, but hey, it's Fox.

Thanks, everyone :)

Drachen Jager
09-26-2013, 05:44 AM
Thank you, Drachen - much appreciated.

I was relatively certain the larger one was Russian, which seems like a strange choice for an article about the CIA arming weapons, but hey, it's Fox.

Thanks, everyone :)

Yeah, I think they picked a random picture to insert there. The machine gun certainly isn't American and if the smaller one is a FAL (I'm wasn't saying it's not, just it doesn't seem right to me) then it's also not American.

What exactly are you looking for? Typical weapons Syrian insurgents might have? Syrian Army weaponry? Or something else?

BTW, I find books where they get too much into specifics on the firearms always read a little like the writer doesn't know guns, but did a bit of googling before they wrote about them.

There's a list of Syrian army equipment here btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Syrian_Army

Christabelle
09-26-2013, 05:49 AM
Hubby said the bottom one looks like either an FAL or a H&K 91. He said different counties can vary the stocks for their own "signature." Without a better picture, it could be either.

The top one is definitely PKM.

He wanted me to add this:


The top is a PKM, that shoots a non-disintegrating belt that holds up to 100 rounds of 7.62x54R ammunition and the lower is either an FAL or HK 91 and they both shoot the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge. The design and aesthetic look can be easily modified to fit the shooter's needs, so it is difficult to tell with that picture. The PKM is commonly used in the Middle East by governments and insurgents, the HK91 is more common than the FAL, but it is still uncommon, but not rare to see. I served in Iraq several times and I saw the HK 91 a handful of times and didn't see the FAL at all.

raburrell
09-26-2013, 05:56 AM
Please thank your husband for me, Christabelle - the extra detail on who uses it in the ME is very helpful with the scene.

Greatly appreciated :)

Christabelle
09-26-2013, 06:00 AM
He said he's happy to help. :)

raburrell
09-26-2013, 06:14 AM
Yeah, I think they picked a random picture to insert there. The machine gun certainly isn't American and if the smaller one is a FAL (I'm wasn't saying it's not, just it doesn't seem right to me) then it's also not American.

What exactly are you looking for? Typical weapons Syrian insurgents might have? Syrian Army weaponry? Or something else?

BTW, I find books where they get too much into specifics on the firearms always read a little like the writer doesn't know guns, but did a bit of googling before they wrote about them.

There's a list of Syrian army equipment here btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Syrian_Army
Sorry, missed this post before. To be brief, I'm looking for distinctions on what FSA/other rebels might have for weaponry versus Assad's guys. I was fairly certain the individuals in the photo were FSA, but I wanted to see if the weapons might tell me anything else.
It really isn't the kind of book where anyone would be expecting me (er, my characters) to go into an extensive discussion of Russian light arms, but the character in question is trying to make his own determination of who he's dealing with, so the little things help :)

Christabelle
09-26-2013, 06:28 AM
It really isn't the kind of book where anyone would be expecting me (er, my characters) to go into an extensive discussion of Russian light arms, but the character in question is trying to make his own determination of who he's dealing with, so the little things help :)
Hubby also said that sometimes arms suppliers try to make it look like the weapons came from a different country - like if the CIA did supply these to Syria but being of Russian origin made it appear that they came from there. The look (sites, stocks, etc.) is different between countries, like he said, and they can forge proofing stamps. For example, a Turkish Mauser looks different from a German Mauser. Egyptian AKs have different sites than Russian AKs.

I hope that's useful.

raburrell
09-26-2013, 06:36 AM
Hubby also said that sometimes arms suppliers try to make it look like the weapons came from a different country - like if the CIA did supply these to Syria but being of Russian origin made it appear that they came from there. The look (sites, stocks, etc.) is different between countries, like he said, and they can forge proofing stamps. For example, a Turkish Mauser looks different from a German Mauser. Egyptian AKs have different sites than Russian AKs.

I hope that's useful.

Yeah - I read a nonfic on the global arms trade earlier this year (Feinstein's Shadow Wars), and it mentioned these kinds of games. Pretty disturbing. Interesting stuff though.

Trebor1415
09-26-2013, 06:59 AM
Sorry, missed this post before. To be brief, I'm looking for distinctions on what FSA/other rebels might have for weaponry versus Assad's guys. I was fairly certain the individuals in the photo were FSA, but I wanted to see if the weapons might tell me anything else.
It really isn't the kind of book where anyone would be expecting me (er, my characters) to go into an extensive discussion of Russian light arms, but the character in question is trying to make his own determination of who he's dealing with, so the little things help :)

Since both sides are going to largely be using the same weapons just looking at what the soldiers are holding isn't going to help much.

(The reason both sides will have largely the same weapons is because rebels commonly are armed with captured govt weapons).

The Syrian rebels have also improvised a bunch of weapons, especially heavier weapons. There are photos of multiple rocket launcher units from helicopters being mounted on pick up trucks and similiar lash ups. That would be a tip off that it's rebels as the gov forces wouldn't do something like that. I've also seen "homebuilt" or improvised artillery.

A better way to determine gov forces from rebels, at a quick glance, is their clothing, appearance, and general organization.

Government forces will typically wear uniforms and be more standardized in appearance. A group of soldiers will have a similar look, the same gear, the same weapons, (or mix of light and heavy weapons), etc.

Government forces will tend to be more organized and disciplined as well. To someone who knows there is a difference between a trained soldier, and a rebel.

Now, even though many soldiers have gone over the rebels, they wouldn't wear their uniforms as they don't want to be mistaken for government troops. They will possibly wear their load bearing gear (the stuff they carry ammo in, etc.)

Other rebels won't even be ex-military so the whole group will have a more mis-matched appearance. More "rag tag" if you will. Many guys will just look like regular civilians, only with guns.

They won't be as disciplined and this will show in how they interact with other, how they intereact with others, and what they in combat.

The clothes and discipline would be better indications of gov or rebel than the guns.

Trebor1415
09-26-2013, 07:02 AM
Yep, I second Trebor's analysis. The top certainly looks Russian.

I'm not so sure about the bottom being a FAL. It's a 7.62 NATO weapon for sure, but I've never seen a FAL with a thin rounded forestock like that. I don't think there would be enough room for the piston on a FAL inside that stock. Could be an AR 10, I suppose.

I'm positive the rifle is a FN FAL.

I pulled mine out the safe to compare. The shape where the buttstock joins the rear of the receiver matches. The general shape of the receiver and especially the mag release or bolt release on the bottom also matches, as does the shape of the trigger guard. Subtle details, I know, but I have both rifles. (I looked at the HK too, and it's definitely a FAL)