On not basing the second world on a particular culture

buz · Sep 24, 2013

Okay...first, forgive me if this is a stupid question. I feel like this is the kind of question that is answered by "duh, see all these novels that have done this" but I can't think of any. Granted, it's nighttime and I am apparently a lizard and I get slow after the sun goes down and my memory is really bad anyway...

Anyway. My point is, if you have apropos book recommendations, let me know.

So the question:

I'm writing this low-magic low-everything fantasy-thingy. I know it takes place in Not Our World, but that's about it. I've fleshed out certain relevant details as I've gone on with the draft (I'm at like 65K at the moment) and I have kind of an image in my mind now...at least of the major town-thingy...

It's not based on any particular culture.

Is that a problem? I mean...it's...uhhhh. Hm. I mean, I don't know what to name people. Right now it's just "whatever occurred to me at the time," so it's kind of a mishmash of Chinese things and European things and Nothings.

But I find that sometimes when I ask for feedback on something, people will remark that they don't know what culture it's in or what setting to imagine. And maybe that's just because I'm generally crap at remembering to paint a picture as far as setting goes, so the reader's mind wants to fill it in with something familiar. But maybe it's because I can't just...I dunno. I'm confusing myself. I feel like I'm getting all flustered over nothing, but...I'm flustered.

I'm flustered over nothing, yeah?

Mr Flibble · Sep 24, 2013

You are flustered over nothing

There is no law that says you *have* to base your world on, well, anything.

The books in my sig are based on no culture that I know of. They were based on other things...

ETA is your betas are saying they can't picture it, that's a different issue (you need to give more setting intermingled with your action). Or perhaps your betas need to read more..hard to tell

Maggie Maxwell · Sep 24, 2013

If we see things based on specific cultures, it's probably because they're familiar and comfortable and paint a very clear picture. There's nothing wrong at all with making your culture bits and pieces of different ones, or something brand new and never before seen. Your world, your way.

Little Anonymous Me · Sep 24, 2013

The culture in my book has adobe houses with roof gardens like the American Southwest, a military code based loosely off Sparta, a castle that doesn't match the rest of their architecture (there's an explanation for why something out of feudal Wales is sitting in the middle of their city), and cotton, rice, and indigo plantations. And palm trees. (Gawd, this sounds so much less bizarre when I'm writing it.)

So no, I don't believe in copying a real culture when I can do my own thang. Flursteration can cease and desist.

buz · Sep 24, 2013

Mr Flibble said:
You are flustered over nothing

There is no law that says you *have* to base your world on, well, anything.

The books in my sig are based on no culture that I know of. They were based on other things...

Lol now I feel dumb--

Yes. You spend a lot of time carefully describing your setting in Fade to Black.

I noticed that and then evidently forgot immediately.

ETA is your betas are saying they can't picture it, that's a different issue (you need to give more setting intermingled with your action). Or perhaps your betas need to read more..hard to tell

No, I think you're right. Describing the surroundings is one of my least favorite things to do; I end up doing not much of it. The other two manuscripts I've written occurred in a set place that I did not make up. (Mostly.)

So. I'm probably just being an idiot because I haven't done this before. At least not for a whole novel.

Hrgh.

ETA: I suppose I'm not so much asking if I *can* do this (I know I *can* do anything the fuck I damn well feel like

); I think I'm more asking for...tips.

Things to remember, maybe? How do you guys flesh out settings from nothing, aside from the tidbits that directly influence your story...? Especially if you're allergic to em, description...?

Help me I'm ~~poor~~ bad at setting.

Kylabelle · Sep 24, 2013

I have the feeling the culture of your second world will emerge and firm up on its own as you go along, writing it. Let it be its own place. As a reader, I prefer that in a fantasy. When it's too like a real-world culture that I have too many associations with, then when it veers off from what I know, as it always does, I get a little distracted even.

Exception is The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson, which is intentionally about real world cultures but with a crucial major historical difference early in their development. (One of my favorite books in the world.)

ETA: Sorry, I see you redirected the thread while I was noodling around in here. Carry on, nevermind me, I'll just make some popcorn.

buz · Sep 24, 2013

Kylabelle said:
ETA: Sorry, I see you redirected the thread while I was noodling around in here. Carry on, nevermind me, I'll just make some popcorn.

All answers are helpful

Clearly I'm still figuring out what I'm asking. :gone:

Little Anonymous Me · Sep 24, 2013

buzhidao said:
I suppose I'm not so much asking if I *can* do this (I know I *can* do anything the fuck I damn well feel like ); I think I'm more asking for...tips. Things to remember, maybe? How do you guys flesh out settings from nothing, aside from the tidbits that directly influence your story...? Especially if you're allergic to em, description...?

Help me I'm ~~poor~~ bad at setting.

Urgh...why you hit me with the hard questions when I'm supposed to be studying?? :tongue

I guess I just try to sneak it in. Like adding a different color when I'm knitting or something. The architecture and flora is pretty easy stuff--all my MC needs to do is look around. Indigo, cotton, and rice all tell you a lot about my climate, and they imply American South, which is the right landscape. Sneaking in a mention now and then of what they eat or drink helps too. Showing cultural values is another easy one--insults. 'Bastard,' 'whoreson,' and 'oathless' will get a blade pulled on you in my MC's country. Again, tells you a lot about what they value and what they revile.

slhuang · Sep 24, 2013

It sounds like you might be dancing around a worry of cultural appropriation (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting). I think you'd only run into a problem there if you base your society CLEARLY in, say, Fake China, but only use the things that are shiny and then Anglicize anything inconvenient. For instance, Avatar: The Last Airbender (the cartoon) got really good reviews for being a fantasy set Not In Fake Europe, because the creators were careful and respectful in how they worldbuilt. On the other hand, the live action movie got panned for (among other things) taking the trappings of "Asianness" without any cultural understanding. I'll rep you a book that got panned for doing the same.

On the other hand, if you're not setting in a specific culture, but instead have a mix of things, like LAM described, I think you'll be just fine.

Though if you have a mix of cultural trappings, I'd recommend having an ethnic mix of people, as well. Would be kinda weird to have recognizable Chinese elements and Mexican elements and Persian elements in the setting but all the people look European.

Now, it's entirely possible the above rambling isn't related to what you were asking about at all . . . because it also seems like perhaps the problem is not describing the setting enough? So your betas don't feel grounded in it?

Have you ever done one of those "describe what's around you" writing exercises? That might help . . . maybe? The exercise is basically a page of describing your surroundings using as many of your senses as you can. Perhaps try doing that in character, in your setting? I dunno, I'm just spitballing.

EDIT: Whoops, crossed with you. Why do I take so long to write replies!! Um, will think on your *actual* questions . . .

buz · Sep 24, 2013

slhuang said:
EDIT: Whoops, crossed with you. Why do I take so long to write replies!! Um, will think on your *actual* questions . . .

You *did* answer the other questions at the end there

I have not thought of describing things around me because it's boring.

Lawlz. But I suppose that's the whole point, innit?

slhuang said:
It sounds like you might be dancing around a worry of cultural appropriation (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting). I think you'd only run into a problem there if you base your society CLEARLY in, say, Fake China, but only use the things that are shiny and then Anglicize anything inconvenient. For instance, Avatar: The Last Airbender (the cartoon) got really good reviews for being a fantasy set Not In Fake Europe, because the creators were careful and respectful in how they worldbuilt. On the other hand, the live action movie got panned for (among other things) taking the trappings of "Asianness" without any cultural understanding. I'll rep you a book that got panned for doing the same.

On the other hand, if you're not setting in a specific culture, but instead have a mix of things, like LAM described, I think you'll be just fine. Though if you have a mix of cultural trappings, I'd recommend having an ethnic mix of people, as well. Would be kinda weird to have recognizable Chinese elements and Mexican elements and Persian elements in the setting but all the people look European.

This does touch on a concern I had. Have? Had? Ergh. I started with the idea that everyone looks Asian, so I thought it would set in Pseudo-Nonspecific Asialand--so I guess there are some pieces of that (there are "water deer" [sort of] and I mention an instrument called a "crank-morin" which is meant to be a cross between a giant morin khuur and hurdy-gurdy...or something). But I think, as it's developed in my mind, it's evolved away from that vague idea into its own...thing. I don't know. I don't think it's really anything.

But the fact that "alchemy" figures heavily into it, I thought, might automatically place people somewhere specific.

Meh.

Roxxsmom · Sep 24, 2013

I worry about appropriating stuff from other cultures, but at the same time, there are reasons why some things have arisen the way they have in different parts of the world. I'm trying to avoid the thing where the dark skinned people from tropical latitudes are always somehow being exploited by the lighter skinned people from more temperate latitudes, at least, but I'm also not simply reversing things. I'm trying to get a sense of the world's biogeography and try to make sense of who might be the most powerful and prosperous in different areas based on the resources and trade routes that are available to them.

I think it can be very challenging to provide those little world building details that add to the story and give a sense of coherence and richness with things but without making the story too long or boring readers with too much detail. Nothing like having a scene where you feel like something interesting and important has happened and every sentence follows elegantly and logically from the one before it with just the right beats and internal reflection etc. And a beta reader says, "I think you need more description here." And I'm all "Waaaah, where do I fit the description of the wainscotting, the flora and fauna or the hostess's gown without ruining the smooth flowiness and logical progression of the thoughts, action and dialog in the thing? How can I even have my pov noticing these things when he's trying to think on his feet and anticipate his adversaries' moves?"

Sometimes I get inspiration on how to do this, but not always. Sometimes it helps to read some books by authors I'm fond of who are also writing in limited third (or first person helps too, since that's obviously in point of view).

rwm4768 · Sep 24, 2013

You don't need to base your culture on any particular culture. That probably means you'll need a little more description, however, to make your world come alive for the readers. I'd like to read a fantasy with a completely new culture.

Nivarion · Sep 24, 2013

One thing that will influence your cultures a lot is climate.

A place where it is hard to eek out a living will not likely have a strong military, and likely not have a strong military culture. Life is likely to be regimented to help the population cope with changes.

A place where there is a lot of resources available and food grows with a bit of prodding will likely develop an industrial complex and be liberal and metropolitan since change doesn't cost the collective too much.

a place where you throw seeds in the ground and they grow with very little tending is likely to not have a lot of focus on industrial growth.

A place where there is not a lot of water will likely have great respect for whats available, and not have a very wasteful culture.

A people that live between two larger nations is likely to have a strong military and forts and a strong tradition of warfare and fighting for survival.

A place with little physical boundaries and where survival varies between hard and booming at different times of the year is likely to spawn a very independent society.

Look at what environment your characters live in, and how they react to it. How would their neighbors react to it? What will they need? What sustains their life? What do they have? Do they need to protect against climate, monsters, animals and other people?

Mr Flibble · Sep 25, 2013

buzhidao said:
ETA: I suppose I'm not so much asking if I *can* do this (I know I *can* do anything the fuck I damn well feel like ); I think I'm more asking for...tips. Things to remember, maybe? How do you guys flesh out settings from nothing, aside from the tidbits that directly influence your story...? Especially if you're allergic to em, description...?

Help me I'm ~~poor~~ bad at setting.

Tbh, I'm pretty poor at describing setting, at least on the first draft. I can see it in my head, it doesn't often make it to the page. This is fine for a first draft -- you can slide in a line or two here and there where your betas say they are coming up blank later. But where it does make it in the first draft (and those are the most organic bits if you know what I mean) then it's where the character interacts with the setting. Or say, Rojan has an utter terror of heights, which means he thinks about the depths of where he is a fair bit

So perhaps have your characters actually use the setting, or have reason to notice it. Filter it through their perception. Maybe they are really bored of having to stand on their head every second Tuesday, or they're trying to negotiate the market and pick as many pockets as they can or they're nervous about doing X because, well, because then Y might well happen or.....

LuciaJoy · Sep 25, 2013

buzhidao said:
Lol now I feel dumb--

Describing the surroundings is one of my least favorite things to do; I end up doing not much of it.

I would be happy with that. I'm not a fan of reading descriptions of places and if they are presented in a big chunk I skip 'em!

Jengajam · Sep 25, 2013

A world reflecting no particular culture could make sense as long as it fits the setting.

I blagged my way through this in my last WiP, where a gateway from our world to the secondary world occasionally let people through, with their various ideas and specialities (sometimes an engineer would come through who can make machinery, for example, but someone who knows how to make guns might never come through). Through this gradual bleeding you get a mish mash of different cultures and technologies throughout the ages, but perhaps I was just making excuses.

As long as it feels organic, like the characters and the plot belong in that setting, I don't think you should have much of a problem.

mirandashell · Sep 25, 2013

I'm another one that doesn't like loads of setting description. Like Mr Flibble said, I prefer the characters to interact with the setting and show me what it's like. It really doesn't take page after page of description to ground a reader, (never mind Mr Dickens and his blasted page and a half of how cold the rain is.....) so you might need less than you think.

If you're on the first draft, I'd finish it and then see how much description is needed.

jallenecs · Sep 25, 2013

As long as you can make it all fit together logically, I'm not seeing a problem with making it up out of whole cloth.

Little Anonymous Me said:
The culture in my book has adobe houses with roof gardens like the American Southwest, a military code based loosely off Sparta, a castle that doesn't match the rest of their architecture (there's an explanation for why something out of feudal Wales is sitting in the middle of their city), and cotton, rice, and indigo plantations. And palm trees. (Gawd, this sounds so much less bizarre when I'm writing it.)

So no, I don't believe in copying a real culture when I can do my own thang. Flursteration can cease and desist.

LAM, got a sidebar (ie, a brief derail) question for you. How are you explaining having adobe houses in a climate that would support cotton, rice, indigo and palm trees? Aren't those tropical or subtropical plants? My sisters and I have always joked that, in the humidity levels we get here at home, an adobe house would melt into a mud pie.

Not saying don't do it. Just wondering how you're making it work.

Little Anonymous Me · Sep 25, 2013

jallenecs said:
LAM, got a sidebar (ie, a brief derail) question for you. How are you explaining having adobe houses in a climate that would support cotton, rice, indigo and palm trees? Aren't those tropical or subtropical plants? My sisters and I have always joked that, in the humidity levels we get here at home, an adobe house would melt into a mud pie.

Not saying don't do it. Just wondering how you're making it work.

Technically, I have cob, but I used the word adobe because it's the right style of house (I don't actually use the term in my MS, but I didn't think now was the time to wax romantic about how they look :tongue

). I did a lot of reading on it, and cob can withstand humidity just fine.

Mr Flibble · Sep 25, 2013

If adobe can survive the wet of a usual UK summer, it can survive a bit of humidity too

But it is used in the tropics in places, so why not?

Fizgig · Sep 25, 2013

I'm an anthropologist so I struggle with this a lot. I want to draw on cultures that I've experienced first hand, but don't want XX fictional culture to = XXX real culture in people's minds. But here's the thing - there really are patterns to cultures. Not that culture is determined by environment, but all cultures have religion and shared rituals that help people bond as a society. All cultures have strict rules about family relationships (the actual rules vary widely, but there are always rules). What I mean is, there are certain aspects of culture that are recognizable because humans are, on some fundamental level, human

.

This is why I think people so often use existing cultures as inspiration. They are internally coherent, make sense to us as cultural beings, and so they are sort of like a cheat sheet for creating something that resonates with readers.

So, in a very long winded answer to your question, obviously you can do whatever, but in my opinion, the best world building is when a place and a people just "makes sense" in that intangible way.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about Culture (capital C) in my setting - what would a group of people eat, how does the economy function, what is the environment, what are their religious beliefs and what would their rituals look like, etc. I have a file on every culture in my world and I just spew out every single thing I can imagine about them.

By the time I'm done I usually have a document about the sights and smells and sounds of a place, the basic dress and appearance of the people, etc.

When I'm trying to describe a place in my WIP, I look at those notes and use what stands out. Why is unusual, what is essential to that culture. Most often I pull out what seems the "coolest" and focus on that.

As a total newb I don't know if this is a particularly good strategy, but that's what I've been doing and so far I think its working....

buz · Sep 25, 2013

Humhumhum. Okay. So basically the answer is "stop being a baby and just keep doing what you're doing until the damn book is done."

(paraphrased significantly of course--you all wouldn't say it like that because you're too pleasant and lovely)

Which I think makes sense.

The bits of setting I do have come from when I had a character interacting with x and I had to fill in for x, randomly, off the top of my head.

Which it sounds like is fine.

It's this stuff:

Roxxsmom said:
I think it can be very challenging to provide those little world building details that add to the story and give a sense of coherence and richness with things but without making the story too long or boring readers with too much detail. Nothing like having a scene where you feel like something interesting and important has happened and every sentence follows elegantly and logically from the one before it with just the right beats and internal reflection etc. And a beta reader says, "I think you need more description here." And I'm all "Waaaah, where do I fit the description of the wainscotting, the flora and fauna or the hostess's gown without ruining the smooth flowiness and logical progression of the thoughts, action and dialog in the thing? How can I even have my pov noticing these things when he's trying to think on his feet and anticipate his adversaries' moves?"

This is it

That's what's hard.

But, yanno, I can just stop being a baby and power through, do the best I think I can do, and then see what betas say.

Thank you, all. :Hug2:

Oh, Fizgig: totally hear you

I'm not saying that it doesn't operate according to Familiar Rules of human culture (I'm not that imaginative). Just that I haven't wanted to seat it in, say, pseudo-Europeland or whatever.

Roxxsmom · Sep 25, 2013

One thing that's helped for me is having the characters interacting with the setting while they have a conversation. Think of how often we wander around rooms of fidget with things in real life. For instance, I have a scene where my character is meeting with some beings from another species, and I was trying to figure out some small ways to make their differences come alive. While they are talking, I have her wander over to a table where there are some terracotta sculptures of strange creatures, pick one up, and realize that it has a strong, rank, odor. Scent sculptures. Her hosts also occasionally remove small, musky-smelling sachets from their pocket and sniff them during conversations.

Yeah, they look kind of like big dogs (or hyenas, actually). What are you staring at? At least they're not elves

Everyone's different, of course, but I never found those describe your surroundings in a page exercises terribly useful myself. I think it's because I found they simply resulted in my describing mundane things in a pedantic way (a glossy rectangle with a picture of a horse on it for the magazine lying next to me, a tall, black rectangular box with a green light for my router--come on, we all know what a router and a magazine are. Why can't I just say there's an Equus magazine and a router on the desk next to my monitor?), and anyway, when we are in a familiar environment, we tend not to notice the mundane. We most often notice what isn't expected, or what is interesting to us. Unless your character is casing a joint or an interior decorator, he's probably not going to walk into a room and notice where all the furniture is, let alone what's on it. But if you go to someone's house for the first time, if you're a bibliophile, you may scan the titles in their bookshelves and get excited if you spot a copy of one of your all-time favorites in their collection.

LOTLOF · Sep 25, 2013

If you want readers to become immersed in your story world there are really only two requirements. Your world must be logical (to some degree). Your world must be consistent. Your world can be a feudal monarchy, a theocracy, a military dictatorship, or simple anarchy. It just needs to make sense to the reader.

For instance, if you state the world is under control of the Church and life is based around the Faith, you can't have everyone not attending services and openly flouting the tenets of their religion. If the land is supposed to be lawless, don't have peaceful farming communities where strangers are welcome and everyone feels secure. The reader needs to see that your world makes sense.

As with everything else in a story, once you set your rules don't break them. You don't need to try and base it on any real world or literary culture. It's your story, you are literally the god of your world and can do anything you like.

Roxxsmom · Sep 25, 2013

Mr Flibble said:
If adobe can survive the wet of a usual UK summer, it can survive a bit of humidity too But it is used in the tropics in places, so why not?

Aren't adobe bricks baked? They have straw mixed in too. The desert southwest has some pretty fierce monsoonal rains, so I think once the bricks are cured well, they hold up for a while. Though maybe they need to be able to dry out in between soakings?

On not basing the second world on a particular culture

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