Mike Shatzkin: Losing bookstores is a much bigger problem for publishers than it is for readers

Getting books on shelves is important, but it wouldn't really diminish the value of publishers that much - they'll still be able to get books into online stores which are otherwise inaccessible to authors, plus they provide much more important services to authors (such as editing).

shadowwalker said:

Getting books on shelves is important, but it wouldn't really diminish the value of publishers that much - they'll still be able to get books into online stores which are otherwise inaccessible to authors, plus they provide much more important services to authors (such as editing).

Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity--what online stores are inaccessible to authors but not to publishers?

DeleyanLee said:

Just out of curiosity--what online stores are inaccessible to authors but not to publishers?

Click to expand...

Those that don't take self-published works.

writingnewbie said:

Can you name just one?

Click to expand...

http://shop.oreilly.com/
http://www.peachpit.com/store/
http://www.baenebooks.com/
http://global.oup.com/academic
http://www.harlequin.com/store.html

Thank you, Lisa. I was wondering which ones they were. Some of those are actual publishers (I know that Baen doesn't allow their ebooks sold anywhere but their site, so that one didn't surprise me). Honestly, I've never heard of a couple of them.

Look! New places to go explore.

Thanks again.

There are many blogs/review sites that do not take self-published works. And they are almost more important that retail sites.

Note that J.K. Rowling sells Harry Potter ebooks only through Pottermore <http://shop.pottermore.com/en_US/harry-potter-ebooks>. It seems she can do that sort of thing.

That doesn't necessarily take away from your point, writingnewbie, but I thought it warranted mentioning.

I agree with Mike Shatzkin's point that the power to get our books onto store shelves will have less value—and give publishers less power—as we continue down the ebook path.

Those publishers that survive his prediction of doom and gloom will be those who learn how to maximize other services that supplant the power to place books. Some may also find success by charging less in lieu of not providing that service.

We're in this weird transition point where publishers must still dedicate resources to the task of filling shelves even as the shelves vanish. At some point we'll reach some kind of equilibrium where the resources needed to place books on shelves matches the sales reward for doing so. Until then...

Story development, editing, marketing, companion-app development, and other things no one (who's talking) has come up with yet are all areas where great publishers can step it up and maintain the value proposition that they offer authors.

And in case it's not clear, I think publishing houses (and agents, for that matter) offer authors enormous value, especially n00bs like me who need their expertise.

Discovery is a whole other issue...

Somewhat related, I recently wrote an editorial arguing that Amazon's Matchbook is a blueprint for brick and mortar bookstore survival.

The thing that I find telling in how things have changed is in the distribution of books.

Back at the turn of the century (this last one), I worked for a small press publisher. The owner had self-published a manual for a New Age process (Reiki), printing out copies and selling them to his own students. At the time, his was the only comprehensive book out there, so other Reiki teachers began to buy it. For years, he printed them up and sold them out of his garage.

After about a decade, he finally found a local printer who would print up real books (instead of the copy store's spiral binding), got office space, hired people (including me) and took the sales of his books international.

When I interviewed for the job, he shared his dream with me--he wanted his book in bookstores and to do that, he had to get carried by Ingram's Distribution. With my background in wanting to be fiction published, I understood it. We had something of the same goal there.

And during the time I worked there, he achieved that dream. His books were picked up by Ingram's and started to appear in book catalogues. It was very exciting.

However, he also hit the point where he got grumpy because having to deal with employees, an office, store-housing entire shipments of books, giving Amazon and Ingram's their cut, etc., seriously dented the huge profit margins he'd enjoyed for over a decade. He wasn't too happy about that.

Now, just over 10 years later, I'm with a small publisher who just clicked an option on a screen with the digital publisher and bookstores can order my book, because that digital publisher has a deal with Ingram's already.

That's a huge change in the self-publishing market right there. Something that had to have over a decade of sales (making its writer an annual millionaire) in order to get a notice, versus clicking a box on a website.

For the longest time, distributors like Ingram's held a lot of power over what one could find in a bookstore too. It wasn't just the publishers who were the gatekeepers into reader's hands. Even more than publishers, the distributors are facing obsolesce with the advent and popularity of ebooks.

I think the entire industry is changing, and changing quickly. It's interesting to see how much attitudes about it and within it has changed over the years I've been doing this writing thing (over 30 years) as to what is acceptable, what is still a bad idea, etc. Very interesting.

writingnewbie said:

Can you name just one?

I can't think of any, at least the most popular online ones:

Kindle: take self-published works
Nook store: take
iBookstore: take
Kobo: take
Google Play: take
Smashwords: take

These 6 online stores probably made up pretty close to 99% of ebooks sales.

Click to expand...

Which isn't surprising since Kindle and Smashwords in particular cater to self-publishers.

writingnewbie said:

authors can get editing without the publishers.

Click to expand...

Of the same quality and for no out of pocket costs?

shadowwalker said:

writingnewbie said:

authors can get editing without the publishers.

Click to expand...

Of the same quality and for no out of pocket costs?

Click to expand...

Actually, yes. At least if you're published by Baen Books.

According to friends who are published by them (and have been for almost 10 years now), they've never done copyediting on any of their books. The authors have to pay for that service. And editing the story appears to be minimum (which could be that my friends' books are just that awesome and don't need it, but I tend to doubt that, even if they are my friends), since what gets turned in is virtually what is published.

And from what I've heard from other friends published by the Big Five, it's not much different there. Most of the burden of editing falls to them, prior to turning in a manuscript.

In the 30+ years I've watched the publishing industry, at least the fiction (SFF) parts of it, the houses have been letting go of a lot of those editorial people to cut costs and the authors who care have had to pick up the slack. Not all publishers, but it's been happening.

Adds a little more credence to the OP's original link that publishers are being affected, don't you think?

GeekTells said:

Note that J.K. Rowling sells Harry Potter ebooks only through Pottermore <http://shop.pottermore.com/en_US/harry-potter-ebooks>. It seems she can do that sort of thing.

That doesn't necessarily take away from your point, writingnewbie, but I thought it warranted mentioning.

Click to expand...

But one can get Harry Potter for Kindle at Amazon.com, and Harry Potter for Nook at B&N.com. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess far more people have bought e-book versions of the Harry Potter books from Amazon than from Rowling's site.

I've only ever bought a couple of self-published books (or books from small e-only presses that offer minimal editing services to authors) that weren't by people I know personally (like critting buddies or writers I've been interacting with via online forums, like this one, or their blogs). Neither was terribly good imo. Now I've gotten books by "big 5" publishers that did not meet my expectations too, but overall, I'd say the production value is higher with traditionally published books. They've been through a screening process (may not be perfect, but it's probably more dispassionate that the process most self-published books go through), received at least some editing etc. My impression of completely indie (self pubbed) books is that the overwhelming majority just aren't that good and that it can be really hard to locate the gems that are hidden in the manure pile.

So honestly, I think stores (even online stores like amazon, but especially traditional book stores) still serve a purpose to readers. I miss being able to visually browse shelves and discover authors I'd never heard of before. Online, you have to know what you're looking for in order to find it.

Hey Roxxsmom, if you click on a buy link for HP on the Nook site, it takes you to Pottermore. The same is true if you click on the Kindle Edition links Amazon lists with the Potter titles.

Pottermore is essentially acting as the ebook publisher—Amazon names Pottermore as the publisher of the "Kindle Edition," but there is no Kindle Edition of the Potter books, only the epub files sold by Pottermore.

Apple doesn't even bother with the pretense of selling HP on iBooks—more's the shame.

The point, though, is that HP has shelf space at Amazon and Nook, but that shelf space wisks you away to Pottermore where all transactions are conducted.

Ms. Rowling has so much power, she doesn't have to let anyone else sell the ebooks. I make a point of this only to stress that HP is the exception to all of the rules when it comes to ebooks.

writingnewbie said:

I did a search for "Harry Potter" and "Fifty Shades of Grey" on all 5 of these stores.

None of them sell it. Which mean these stores are pretty much inaccessible to most trade publishers too.

Click to expand...

No, it means they are stores owned by publishers who don't sell other publishers works (as a general rule; Baen makes a few exceptions).

O'Reilly and Peachpit have been selling ebooks for more than twenty years. They publish technical books, and are rather large and well-known, with solid distribution. Peachpit is owned by Pearson's, hence a big 5 publisher.

Baen is in the top five publishers of SF/F. They've been selling their authors ebooks since c.2000.

Harlequin is the worlds largest publisher of category romance in multiple languages (Mills and Boon anyone?). They've had their own ebook store for their authors since around 2002, maybe earlier.

Oxford University Press is, well, Oxbridge.

writingnewbie said:

I did a search for "Harry Potter" and "Fifty Shades of Grey" on all 5 of these stores.

None of them sell it. Which mean these stores are pretty much inaccessible to most trade publishers too.

Click to expand...

No, it means that none of those five publishers published the two books you searched for.

Why are you so fond of Mike Shatzkin? You seem to mention him and link to his blog in almost every post you make here.

DeleyanLee said:

And from what I've heard from other friends published by the Big Five, it's not much different there. Most of the burden of editing falls to them, prior to turning in a manuscript.

Click to expand...

It is true that authors have to revise their books as thoroughly as they can prior to submission, but that's always been the case and it doesn't mean that "Most of the burden of editing falls to them, prior to turning in a manuscript".

Publishers have cut down on editors; but they do still edit the books they publish, and they care a lot about the authors and the books they work with. If you're not convinced, take a look at this thread.

DeleyanLee said:

And from what I've heard from other friends published by the Big Five, it's not much different there. Most of the burden of editing falls to them, prior to turning in a manuscript.

Click to expand...

Well I do the actual editing (as in physically change the text), ofc, but believe me, my editors are very thorough. They do in fact do a lot of editing (as in discussing what editorial changes need making/development/red penning/looking at structure etc, or in the case of the copy editor, stopping me from looking like a numpty ), but they don't implement the changes -- the author does that. Has it ever been otherwise? I'd not be happy if an editor changed my work without my express say so on each part. They ask for changes, I make them

ETA: I often wonder what people think editors do instead of edit? Eat ice cream? Have paper plane fights?

Mr Flibble said:

ETA: I often wonder what people think editors do instead of edit? Eat ice cream? Have paper plane fights?

Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out since when people have decided that the author doing the actual editing on their books because the editor has suggested them has become a new thing that was never done before in publishing.

Old Hack said:

It is true that authors have to revise their books as thoroughly as they can prior to submission, but that's always been the case and it doesn't mean that "Most of the burden of editing falls to them, prior to turning in a manuscript".

Publishers have cut down on editors; but they do still edit the books they publish, and they care a lot about the authors and the books they work with. If you're not convinced, take a look at this thread.

Click to expand...

It's not that I'm unconvinced. Those editors who do still have jobs in the industry do care and do a good job (I'd like to think so as a general rule). I'm just noting that there are fewer and fewer services offered by editors than were when I started submitting back in the 1970's. The lack of those services (like getting a promising manuscript ready for publication, such as the original Dune) now falls to the author, and not to the editor who buys it telling the author what to do.

The whole thing about publishers and the future of publishing is that the industry is changing. Books that would never get the time of day from readers 15 years ago (self-published by any name) are getting bought in droves. Publishers are now keeping track of who's self-published books are selling well and contacting them to offer contracts (and getting refused as often as not, since publishers want all rights and not all authors are willing to do that anymore--it's happened to one of my friends from another site) instead of going through the agents and the submissions. This would've been "front page news" even 10-15 years go, such as when Vince Flynn did it, because it's so rare. It's not rare anymore.

In the 40ish years I've been aware of fiction publishing, I've seen a lot of changes in the industry--and most of them have been not good for authors. Advances that haven't increased with wages, contracts that have demanded more and more, agent's percentages have nearly doubled in that time though the gross amount to the author hasn't, the loss of editorial staff and skills at the company, some really draconian contracts becoming standard (Harlequin used to own the name its authors published under for a good long time, for instance), they decide whether your book is in print or not and what constitutes "in print" (sometimes to their own advantage in retaining reprint rights), they pay royalties as they see fit and come up with many kinds of ploys to keep an author's money from them (if a book is only selling 304 copies a year, why withhold returns funds for 500-1000?--yes, that's happening to a friend published with a Big 5 publisher).

Authors have been regaining some power now, but some things we're still at the mercy of the publishing houses. With the acceptance of self-publishing, even authors who've been published for years are taking advantage of the change and doing things with books that publishers have locked down, refused to give a chance. For those authors, like myself, who write for niche markets too small for publishers to want to deal with, it gives us an opportunity as well because we're completely shut out of the system because we won't be profitable enough for them (until we prove our market IS profitable enough for them and they didn't realize it).

I think there will always be books. Whether they're collector's items like LPs have become or not, I don't know. I think there's a culture expectation about books that's not going to go away and people will continue to want them. If there are books, there will be publishers. However, what I'm not convinced of is that the big publishers of 2033 will necessarily be the big publishers of 2013. It seems to me that many of the Big 5 are very entrenched in a world where they still hold all the cards, where no author won't be delighted to get their offers and sell all their rights for a pittance, and they're being very slow to change. And that could cost them their existence. But one or more of them going under doesn't mean it will be the end of publishing, it will just open a space for more modern-thinking, "leaner" publishers to grow into and take over. What that new breed of publisher will be--I don't know, but it'll be interesting to see what happens.

I'm just noting that there are fewer and fewer services offered by editors than were when I started submitting back in the 1970's. The lack of those services (like getting a promising manuscript ready for publication, such as the original Dune) now falls to the author, and not to the editor who buys it telling the author what to do.

Click to expand...

I'm confused, because among other things, that is exactly what my editor does - helps me get the MS into shape. By editing*.

Unless you mean something else?


*ETA for instance my editor is currently looking at a first draft of an MS, so we can develop it further and get it shipshape. I suspect there will be discussion/suggestions of character arcs, structure, pacing, worldbuilding and more. I'm expecting a fair bit of red pen tbh....

Mr Flibble said:

I'm confused, because among other things, that is exactly what my editor does - helps me get the MS into shape. By editing*.

Unless you mean something else?


*ETA for instance my editor is currently looking at a first draft of an MS, so we can develop it further and get it shipshape. I suspect there will be discussion/suggestions of character arcs, structure, pacing, worldbuilding and more. I'm expecting a fair bit of red pen tbh....

Click to expand...

When I first started submitting in the 1970's, the published members I talked to told me how they put together their first books, submitted it fresh off their fingertips, and got editors interested enough to work with them, doing the work that we now standardly have critique partners and beta readers do. Not a one of us would dream of a Big 5 (or anyone else) editor doing that for us, we automatically do that work ourselves.

I was actively taught that it was ludicrous for any author to bother to learn how to do that before submission. One didn't "improve" their writing, but let the natural talent of the author show. Now, I don't know if they were just pranking a new writer (writing groups weren't as ubiquitous as they are now) or if their relationship with their editors was really unique (which I also doubt, since while they were published and one was Hugo-nominated, their careers weren't really notable), it might be possible. But reading interviews with authors from the 1950's through the 1970's, many of them make mention of the same kind of editorial input into the creative process as being standard that many of us would find intrusive today. Thus, my conclusion that editors today don't do as much as they used to (for good reason, as I don't think they got as slammed with as many submissions back when it cost an author more in time, materials, and effort to write a book than it does now--but that's a different topic for a different thread).

Every industry must respond to economic realities. The auto and airline industries are familiar with this for example. As the demand for physical books and physical bookstores drops the natural result will be that the least profitable bookstores (and chains) will go out of business. Other stores will remains successful by developing niche markets or finding alternate uses for their floor space. At some point the market will stabilize and the industry will provide the amount of product that the customer base wants.

I expect that ebooks will only grow in popularity, but that there will still be a place for paper books. There is something to be said for having an actual physical copy of a favorite story. Some people also just prefer them to reading a story off of a screen.

As for the publishers I don't expect them to go the way of the dinosaur any time soon either. They remain the gate keepers. Having a book selected by a trade publisher separates it from the mass of self published work. And while many established authors may deliberately to choose to self publish, most new and small ones will probably still prefer to sign with a publisher. They do still help with editing and artwork, but above all they can assist with marketing a work. Even in a digital environment, being published by Penguin or Random House will be a tremendous advantage over being a self published author no one knows.