Of newly discovered islands and independency

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

So I think I have a problem. I have this newly discovered island and I want to keep it independent. I wanted to know what was the criteria followed by worldwide countries to decide whose sovereignty is stronger. Is the country that discovers it its ruler? Does the island being located at the same exact distance from all nearby countries help in any way?
I haven't decided yet where to place said island, but plotwise will have to be either Atlantic or Artic Ocean.

MisterFrancis · Sep 12, 2013

Is it inhabited or not?

If not, then it would be considered terra nullius and a (under modern international law) a state only acquires a right to it by the exercise of effective control and effective occupation. If there were multiple claims it would probably go to international aribtration where the competing claims were balanced. Or war, I guess.

If it were occupied, the UN Charter and the law is very clear on the right to self-determination.

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

It's occupied, yes, not only by locals but also by a group of English people who discovered it during WWII and didn't tell nothing to no one. Also, the island presents a variety of new animal species, being kinda like a little heaven for biologists.

MisterFrancis · Sep 12, 2013

For similar examples, you could look at Clipperton Island, Eastern Greenland, Miniquiers and Ecrehos in the English Channel, or that time the Rio Grande moved.

MisterFrancis · Sep 12, 2013

The English people living there won't effect the outcome, legally speaking. It has to be intentional sovereign control by the public authority. Clipperton Island was variously occupied by private Mexican and French groups secretly mining guano, but that didn't count to establish control.

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

Okay, I'm going to check out all those. Thanks, mate.

MisterFrancis · Sep 12, 2013

But, you know, international relations is so chaotic that whatever you want to happen would probably be realistic, be that William Howard Taft chairing an arbitration panel, a self-determination campaign at the UN, or gunboats circling each other warily.

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

I'd actually need the island to be free for a while. As in: everybody can get on it; no one can decide for its people.

King Neptune · Sep 12, 2013

If the locals have something that looks like a government, then it is unlikely that any other country would try to take control, at least not right off.

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

No government. It's just a small village with elders as source of leadership.

King Neptune · Sep 12, 2013

YellowHat said:
No government. It's just a small village with elders as source of leadership.

That is a government. If things are running smoothly, then any other government would happily deal with the elders, especially if the English people accepted them as the local rulers.

This is set in the present, isn't it? There is a good chance that some nannyish government, like Obama, will say thay can't take care of themselves and need out help, but that could just be a plot complication

mirandashell · Sep 12, 2013

What resource does the island have that would make other governments interested?

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

King Neptune said:
That is a government. If things are running smoothly, then any other government would happily deal with the elders, especially if the English people accepted them as the local rulers.

Oh, I see. You're right.

King Neptune said:
This is set in the present, isn't it? There is a good chance that some nannyish government, like Obama, will say thay can't take care of themselves and need out help, but that could just be a plot complication

Yup. It's in the present. I already thought about some plot complication but because of Japan.

mirandashell said:
What resource does the island have that would make other governments interested?

No real resources. There are just those species biologists want to study--and there will be a team sent over there to do so, the main characters of the novel.

mirandashell · Sep 12, 2013

So why are other governments interested?

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

Good point.
As for now, I didn't say they were interested. Just wanted to know under whose sovereignty should be placed. I guess, since no Government in the past used the island, that it should go to the closest country?

mirandashell · Sep 12, 2013

Why?

The point I'm trying to make is: are you right to just assume that the nearest country would take sovereignty and that any other country would argue about it? If there's nothing on the island that's worth anything then why would anyone care?

YellowHat · Sep 12, 2013

Yeah, my bad. I really lost a piece of thought there. As Neptune pointed out, I think the island will stay independent having its own, even if small, Government.
I guess that's all. Thanks for this short and helpful brainstorming, guys.

melindamusil · Sep 12, 2013

It's possible that other nations would not approve of the way the locals are taking care of the ecosystem and/or feel that they can take of it better than the locals. Especially if they find something important there - say, they discover a particular plant that cures cancer (or even just a plant that MIGHT cure cancer).

The other possibility would be if other countries didn't approve of the religion of the locals. The Mayans, Incans, and Aztecs were all massacred by the Spaniards because they believed that this new land had to be Christian (among other reasons).

You could also say that one nation is interested in it because of its location. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? What if another nation (like... Russia, Iran, Syria... or one that you make up) is interested in putting a military base on this island, just because of the location? Then of course, other nations would be interested because they'd want to make sure this nation stays out. (i.e. if any nation has a military base on this island, it better be us!)

melindamusil · Sep 12, 2013

YellowHat said:
No real resources. There are just those species biologists want to study--and there will be a team sent over there to do so, the main characters of the novel.

This IS a resource - or at least, a "potential" resource. As long as there are undiscovered plants/animals, there is a possibility of finding stuff that cures diseases, or new animals, or whatnot... and if you want, other nations may certainly fight to protect their access to that.

Albedo · Sep 12, 2013

The greatest resource a small remote island has is probably its 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone. Exclusive access to fisheries, seabed oil and gas, etc.

waylander · Sep 13, 2013

Who do the inhabitants look to as their governing nation?

YellowHat · Sep 13, 2013

melindamusil said:
It's possible that other nations would not approve of the way the locals are taking care of the ecosystem and/or feel that they can take of it better than the locals. Especially if they find something important there - say, they discover a particular plant that cures cancer (or even just a plant that MIGHT cure cancer).

That's why I'm having this team of experts sent over there to examine the flora and fauna. But since this is part of the plot, they won't discover nothing important until the end of the novel, so I can't use this reason for having countries interested in the island.

melindamusil said:
The other possibility would be if other countries didn't approve of the religion of the locals. The Mayans, Incans, and Aztecs were all massacred by the Spaniards because they believed that this new land had to be Christian (among other reasons).

Nah, I'm not going to play the religion card here.

melindamusil said:
You could also say that one nation is interested in it because of its location. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? What if another nation (like... Russia, Iran, Syria... or one that you make up) is interested in putting a military base on this island, just because of the location? Then of course, other nations would be interested because they'd want to make sure this nation stays out. (i.e. if any nation has a military base on this island, it better be us!)

Yeah, thought about that. I still have to decide if to use it or not.

melindamusil said:
This IS a resource - or at least, a "potential" resource. As long as there are undiscovered plants/animals, there is a possibility of finding stuff that cures diseases, or new animals, or whatnot... and if you want, other nations may certainly fight to protect their access to that.

Oh, yeah, you're right!

Albedo said:
The greatest resource a small remote island has is probably its 200 mile Exclusive Economic Zone. Exclusive access to fisheries, seabed oil and gas, etc.

It's quite a poor island. There are fishing points, but no oil or gas and the beaches are nothing amazing, just averageness.

waylander said:
Who do the inhabitants look to as their governing nation?

No one. They've been separated from the world for ages. They never cared about others, just wanted to live they lives. When a british group found the island, in the 40s, they accepted them because the group itself didn't want to reveal the existance of the island.
Besides, I'm pretty sure the inhabitants don't even know what countries are out there. They know something about 5 or 6 continents and world wars and whatnot from the british men tales, but nothing more. They're quite an introverted population.

veinglory · Sep 13, 2013

Multiple countries will always want any new island to extend their legal fishing zone and claim a place for various vessels (e.g. military, search and rescue etc) to stop over without risk of diplomatic incident.

melindamusil · Sep 13, 2013

YellowHat said:
No one. They've been separated from the world for ages. They never cared about others, just wanted to live they lives. When a british group found the island, in the 40s, they accepted them because the group itself didn't want to reveal the existance of the island.
Besides, I'm pretty sure the inhabitants don't even know what countries are out there. They know something about 5 or 6 continents and world wars and whatnot from the british men tales, but nothing more. They're quite an introverted population.

Before I forget - I've heard of oil companies drilling (or trying to drill) in the Arctic. So if you wanted them to use oil/gas as a resource, you could.

I think you have some flexibility on this independence issue. Do you want other nations to be trying to declare sovereignty over the island? It could be a subplot, or you could probably write an entire novel over it. If one nation (for example, Russia) wants to declare sovereignty, there's a good chance other nations (like the US, Britain, etc.) will throw their hats in the ring, just because they don't want Russia to get more power.

On the other hand, I've heard of some tribes in the Amazon who have little or no contact with the "outside world". Even Japan was extremely isolated until the 1850s. If this island is truly lacking in resources (except for the flora and fauna that might be useful), then maybe no one cares. Or, rather, the rest of the world is happy with the status quo (the island being independent) and would only become involved if another nation is trying to take away their independence.

blacbird · Sep 13, 2013

The European practice beginning at the end of the 15th century was to "claim" lands in the name of the sovereign, and simply assert control by force, regardless of the presence of indigenous inhabitants.

caw

Of newly discovered islands and independency

YellowHat

MisterFrancis

YellowHat

MisterFrancis

MisterFrancis

YellowHat

MisterFrancis

YellowHat

King Neptune

YellowHat

King Neptune

mirandashell

YellowHat

mirandashell

YellowHat

mirandashell

YellowHat

melindamusil

practical experience, FTW

melindamusil

practical experience, FTW

Albedo

Alex

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

YellowHat

veinglory

volitare nequeo

melindamusil

practical experience, FTW

blacbird