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View Full Version : TalkingTalk's views of publishing [derail split from cwbrowning's diary thread]



TalkingTalk
09-11-2013, 11:14 PM
The role of the agent in every industry be it travel, property, retail and publishing is changing and eroding. I am not scared to predict that in not so many years. The only publishers will be Amazon,Google,Apple and one or two more yet to be invented. There is simply no need.


People wax nostalgic for the feel of a paper book in their hands but those people will be fewer and fewer. They will die and become converted. The element of mystery about what publishers do will become eroded. They are no longer needed and they know it, or at least the clever ones do.

You published on Kindle, I published in IPad and any of the 7 Billion people in the world can buy our books in 2 seconds and for cheap.

The one element where we still struggle is that marketing costs money and needs know how. Unless we are supremely confident we are not going to mortgage the house for a billboard on Times Square. We probably will not get invited to Oprah to discuss our work.

There are ways of getting around it as you say Twitter and Facebook but it is not easy. We have to be clever and find a way. I know there is one just got to find it.

merrihiatt
09-11-2013, 11:36 PM
The role of the agent in every industry be it travel, property, retail and publishing is changing and eroding. I am not scared to predict that in not so many years. The only publishers will be Amazon,Google,Apple and one or two more yet to be invented. There is simply no need.

There is a definite need and I'm surprised that the value of what a publisher has to offer is being dismissed so lightly.


People wax nostalgic for the feel of a paper book in their hands but those people will be fewer and fewer. They will die and become converted. The element of mystery about what publishers do will become eroded. They are no longer needed and they know it, or at least the clever ones do.

I must not be a "clever one" as I love paperback books and have wonderful childhood memories of lying on a braided rug in front of a black pot-bellied stove in our small town library.

You published on Kindle, I published in IPad and any of the 7 Billion people in the world can buy our books in 2 seconds and for cheap.

They can, but will they? How will they find your title among the sheer mass of self-published titles?

The one element where we still struggle is that marketing costs money and needs know how. Unless we are supremely confident we are not going to mortgage the house for a billboard on Times Square. We probably will not get invited to Oprah to discuss our work.

There are ways of getting around it as you say Twitter and Facebook but it is not easy. We have to be clever and find a way. I know there is one just got to find it.


Good luck finding a "clever" way.

girlyswot
09-12-2013, 12:50 AM
The role of the agent in every industry be it travel, property, retail and publishing is changing and eroding. I am not scared to predict that in not so many years. The only publishers will be Amazon,Google,Apple and one or two more yet to be invented. There is simply no need.


People wax nostalgic for the feel of a paper book in their hands but those people will be fewer and fewer. They will die and become converted. The element of mystery about what publishers do will become eroded. They are no longer needed and they know it, or at least the clever ones do.

You published on Kindle, I published in IPad and any of the 7 Billion people in the world can buy our books in 2 seconds and for cheap.

The one element where we still struggle is that marketing costs money and needs know how. Unless we are supremely confident we are not going to mortgage the house for a billboard on Times Square. We probably will not get invited to Oprah to discuss our work.

There are ways of getting around it as you say Twitter and Facebook but it is not easy. We have to be clever and find a way. I know there is one just got to find it.

Did you miss the description of this forum?


The goal is education to help writers make informed choices. This is NOT a "rah-rah! 'Indie' Self-pubber!" cheering section.

cornflake
09-12-2013, 01:23 AM
The role of the agent in every industry be it travel, property, retail and publishing is changing and eroding. I am not scared to predict that in not so many years. The only publishers will be Amazon,Google,Apple and one or two more yet to be invented. There is simply no need.

I think there'll be even greater need.

People wax nostalgic for the feel of a paper book in their hands but those people will be fewer and fewer. They will die and become converted. The element of mystery about what publishers do will become eroded. They are no longer needed and they know it, or at least the clever ones do.

You published on Kindle, I published in IPad and any of the 7 Billion people in the world can buy our books in 2 seconds and for cheap.

This is why I think there'll be even greater need. I now barely even look at self-pubbed stuff, because so much of what I've seen of it is a hot mess. I know there are gems out there, even just good, solid writers out there. I'm not willing to slog through the people who can't edit, don't understand their work needs editing, can't write in English to begin with, don't write well even if they can, etc., to find the others. I completely prefer physical books, but more than that, I prefer to have some idea that the book I'm spending money and time on was at least vetted and edited to some extent. I may not like it anyway, goodness knows, but not because it's rife with errors and plot confusion.

This isn't meant to suggest that self-pubbing is bad or should go away - I'd like it if it were easier to find the well-written stuff or if there was more of it, proportionally. However, I think the 'no trade publishers will be awesome because anyone can put stuff out for everyone' is akin to saying 'there's no need for journalists because the Internet exists and anyone can upload whatever.' That didn't work. There's sort of a medium that's been achieved in that venue, I think, that can hopefully be found between trade and self-publishing. I don't think publishers are going away any more than the NYT, WashPost or the NYer are.

The one element where we still struggle is that marketing costs money and needs know how. Unless we are supremely confident we are not going to mortgage the house for a billboard on Times Square. We probably will not get invited to Oprah to discuss our work.

There are ways of getting around it as you say Twitter and Facebook but it is not easy. We have to be clever and find a way. I know there is one just got to find it.

I don't think marketing is the issue.

K.B. Parker
09-12-2013, 02:53 AM
I'm not sure I'll ever jump on the E-Book bandwagon. It's just not for me. It strains my eyes and call me old fashioned, but it's really difficult for me to read and absorb a story off a screen. I'll be reading physical copies until the day I die. Along the way, if there's a book I really want to read but isn't available as a physical copy then I will begrudgingly read it on a screen. I really want to read Unteachable, written by an AW member, but I'm waiting on the print version.

Now, to not veer too far off topic, good luck cwbrowning, I'll be following your journey. Many of the reasons that I am choosing to self publish are similar to yours. Some people give self publishing a bad name and because of that, it can be harder for us to accomplish what we want to accomplish. Just keep the faith though. I believe through persistence, hard work and a little luck, anybody can succeed - trade or self published.

cwbrowning
09-12-2013, 03:19 AM
Thanks AnneGlynn! It is very, very humbling...and also very exciting! :)

K.B. - I agree with you on the physical copy feeling. I actually don't even own a Kindle, although now I suppose I'll have to buy one. I prefer hard-copies and always will. But I know many people do not, and so I am using both formats. What surprised me was that my print sales are roughly a third of the Kindle ones...I didn't expect that. I expected about a quarter of the sales would be hard copy, and those to family members who wanted a physical book!

cornflake
09-12-2013, 03:31 AM
There are lots of people just prefer them - even kids. I know a number of kids who love to read, were given kindles, and the kindles gather dust because the kids just prefer hard copies.

I'd think it's a good sign your sales are that many hard copies, as they're likely more expensive.

Marian Perera
09-12-2013, 04:03 AM
I must not be a "clever one" as I love paperback books

So do I, Merri, but not only are we two of the few who do, we're going to die and become converted, presumably after we die.

Best of luck, CW. Some nice reviews there!

cwbrowning
09-12-2013, 04:25 AM
I think it's a good sign too, Cornflake. Call me old-fashioned, but I still love paper books. :D

Thanks Queen of Swords!

K.B. Parker
09-12-2013, 04:52 AM
Thanks AnneGlynn! It is very, very humbling...and also very exciting! :)

K.B. - I agree with you on the physical copy feeling. I actually don't even own a Kindle, although now I suppose I'll have to buy one. I prefer hard-copies and always will. But I know many people do not, and so I am using both formats. What surprised me was that my print sales are roughly a third of the Kindle ones...I didn't expect that. I expected about a quarter of the sales would be hard copy, and those to family members who wanted a physical book!

I'll definitely sell e-books, just not fond of reading them.

Again, good luck!

Katallina
09-12-2013, 05:22 AM
Hello and welcome! :) You seem to be off to a great start, and I hope it only continues to get better. Good luck! :D

And I'm so with the others who like physical books. I have a kindle, and I don't mind e-books on that, but it's definitely the last resort. I use it when either (a) books are cheap or free, (b) something is coming out that I want and I started collecting it on my kindle, or (c) when I'm reviewing ARCs for my blog.

Physical books just feel more 'real'. I know that for me, personally, my book won't feel real or published until I hold it in my hands. Of course, all of the above is solely my opinion.

RLMcKeown
09-12-2013, 06:24 AM
Congrats on all your sales!

I like both physical books and ebooks, though I definitely prefer e-ink over tablet screens.

cwbrowning
09-12-2013, 07:08 AM
Thanks Ann Joyce! I have been following your journey and love reading your updates!

Katallina, I won't lie. It was one of the best feelings in the world to hold the proof copy of my book. :D It was like a dream. It still kind of feels like a dream...I keep expecting someone to wake me up and tell me it's all over now!

Thanks RLMcKeown!

TalkingTalk
09-12-2013, 11:38 AM
I apologise to all the people I upset by predicting their demise or conversion to the dark side.

You may have noticed how publishers claim that the cost of producing en ebook and a print book are basically the same. Yet before the advent of the ebook, they justified their high cut of sales by pointing to distribution, printing, storage. Now they allocate these costs to something different.

http://michaelhyatt.com/why-do-ebooks-cost-so-much.html

I did not think I would evoke such hostility but the truth hurts. I agree that there are bigger quality issues in self publishing than in printed, but these barriers can be overcome. It just needs to reviewed by the right reviewers, or a stamp of quality, by an editing house. There are many solutions to the valid issues you have all raised.

I love a paper book also, and also have nostalgic memories from my youth, but they pile up in my house and take up room and gather dust. I can only fit so many in my bag when I travel. I never lose my page in an ebook. I loved my horse also, but eventually had to buy a car. My vinyl record collection ..... should I go on.

CW Browning, I wish you the best luck in all formats, and the rest of you also.

Torgo
09-12-2013, 01:48 PM
You may have noticed how publishers claim that the cost of producing en ebook and a print book are basically the same. Yet before the advent of the ebook, they justified their high cut of sales by pointing to distribution, printing, storage.

If people did that, it wasn't true. The biggest expense has always been *paying the author*. The Michael Hyatt blog you link to has it right. Perhaps you could cite a publisher saying something different?

The main difference between print and digital is that print has per-book costs - each copy you produce costs you a (relatively small) amount of money. You run the risk of being stuck with unsold stock that you've already paid to print. But with digital you also have (a) on average double royalties to pay to the author and (b) a whacking great slice of sales tax, in the EU. The profit margin for the publisher is pretty much the same. Actually, the profit margin for the publisher usually ends up being quite similar to what the author takes home. It is a partnership, after all.

Old Hack
09-12-2013, 02:10 PM
TalkingTalk, I've split your derail out of the self publishing diary thread you started it in (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277314). Please keep on-topic in future, and if you want to talk about something which isn't already being discussed, start a new thread.


The role of the agent in every industry be it travel, property, retail and publishing is changing and eroding. I am not scared to predict that in not so many years. The only publishers will be Amazon,Google,Apple and one or two more yet to be invented. There is simply no need.

In the 1980s people predicted the paperless office, and look how well that's turned out.


People wax nostalgic for the feel of a paper book in their hands but those people will be fewer and fewer. They will die and become converted.

What will they be converted into after their death?


The element of mystery about what publishers do will become eroded.

Trade publishers publish books for the book trade. Magazine publishers publish magazines. Newspaper publishers publish newspapers. Where's the mystery?


They are no longer needed and they know it, or at least the clever ones do.

If this were true, the "clever" publishers would have all shut up shop and gone home. As they're still in business then either they're not clever or you're wrong; and as they continue to publish great books which sell well, I'm pretty sure which option is correct.


You published on Kindle, I published in IPad and any of the 7 Billion people in the world can buy our books in 2 seconds and for cheap.

Neither "quick" nor "cheap" signify that something has been published well, or that it's going to find its readership and sell in good quantity.


The one element where we still struggle is that marketing costs money and needs know how.

Marketing is not the only area in which self publishers struggle.

I've reviewed hundreds of self published books. Very few were published well; very few were even competently published. And very few have sold more than a handful of copies.


Unless we are supremely confident we are not going to mortgage the house for a billboard on Times Square. We probably will not get invited to Oprah to discuss our work.

Renting space on a billboard in Times Square isn't going to ensure that your book sells in good number. There are so many other things you have to take care of to achieve good sales.


There are ways of getting around it as you say Twitter and Facebook but it is not easy. We have to be clever and find a way. I know there is one just got to find it.

There's no secret to selling books, but using Twitter and Facebook isn't it.


I apologise to all the people I upset by predicting their demise or conversion to the dark side.

Oh, for goodness' sake.


You may have noticed how publishers claim that the cost of producing en ebook and a print book are basically the same. Yet before the advent of the ebook, they justified their high cut of sales by pointing to distribution, printing, storage. Now they allocate these costs to something different.

http://michaelhyatt.com/why-do-ebooks-cost-so-much.html

There are costs associated with publishing. Some of those costs are involved regardless of the format the book is published in, such as acquisition and editing; some are specific to the format.

The article you link to doesn't "allocate these costs to something different", it explains some of the costs involved in publishing digital editions. It doesn't cover the costs involved of storage (even digital files need to be housed somewhere), of file maintenance, of updating, or of piracy control, all of which have to be considered.


I did not think I would evoke such hostility

You posted an ill-informed, off-topic rant in the middle of one of our member's diary threads and are now surprised that you didn't get a good reaction?


...but the truth hurts.

I don't think anyone was upset because of the truth of what you wrote.


I agree that there are bigger quality issues in self publishing than in printed, but these barriers can be overcome. It just needs to reviewed by the right reviewers, or a stamp of quality, by an editing house. There are many solutions to the valid issues you have all raised.

Getting a book reviewed "by the right reviewers" would not help print editions of self published books improve in quality. All it would do is give readers some reviews to read.

I suggest you take some time to learn how book reviewers work.

As for books having "stamp of quality, by an editing house": I think I can see what you're getting at here, but the system that you're hinting at is so full of potential conflicts of interest, and would be so difficult to fund in a way which would remove those conflicts, that it would be impossible to run; and it would go against the desire of many self publishers to work on their own without such gatekeepers. I don't think it would work. But do feel free to expand on this theme if you have a workable plan.


I love a paper book also, and also have nostalgic memories from my youth, but they pile up in my house and take up room and gather dust. I can only fit so many in my bag when I travel. I never lose my page in an ebook. I loved my horse also, but eventually had to buy a car. My vinyl record collection ..... should I go on.

No, I don't think you should. There are all sorts of reasons print editions are useful and the analogies you've used in your attempt to discredit them are clumsy and misleading.


***


TalkingTalk, you've got off to a really poor start here. I hope things get better for you as you become more at home at AW: but I strongly advise you to read the Newbie Guide; to keep on-topic when you join in with ongoing conversations; and to stop making vacuous claims which are so easily refuted. Thank you.

evilrooster
09-12-2013, 02:14 PM
It's also not uncommon to see people omit or lowball the costs of ePublishing when doing these comparisons. Storage and its associated costs, format conversions, and QA are not free.

But I've often found that these discussions run aground not so much on the details themselves as on a kind of moral judgment that causes people to ignore or invalidate the information provided by "the other side". The notion that trade publishers are evil, greedy, and dinosaurs has many community-building effects, but it doesn't lead to a better understanding of the world as it actually works.

Asking "why would a reasonable business actually do things this way?", and not immediately leaping to "because they're (insert negative generalization here)" might help a self-publisher to foresee problems and figure out ways to tackle them. The way in which a self-publisher deals with the problem will vary, of course, but the problems that trade publishing has evolved to solve are, in fact, real.

(They're also ongoing, even in a world that includes eBooks. Problems of visibility, reader appeal, quality, distribution channels, copyright, piracy, etc. have changed a lot less than one might think from the "brave new world" message that some ePublishers and self-publishers put out. A wise person might learn a lot from a dispassionate look.)

Marian Perera
09-12-2013, 04:02 PM
I did not think I would evoke such hostility but the truth hurts.

I hope you realize that at least one of the people who didn't embrace your post with open arms is self-published?

And as for being "hurt" by the trade-publishing-is-dead mantra that's been repeated for years (people were predicting that long before the Kindle), no one here is that naive.


I agree that there are bigger quality issues in self publishing than in printed, but these barriers can be overcome. It just needs to reviewed by the right reviewers

Why should the "right reviewers", whoever they are, wade through the sheer quantities of self-published books?


or a stamp of quality, by an editing house.

I agree that a lot of self-published books could use more editing.

How will self-published writers pay for this editing, and what will convince them that such a stamp of quality is necessary?


I love a paper book also, and also have nostalgic memories from my youth, but they pile up in my house and take up room and gather dust.

My books take up room in bookcases where I group them according to genre and display the fantasy art books I'm especially proud of. Some of the books in my collection include autographed copies which are irreplaceable and out-of-print books which are almost as much so.

If they gather dust, I use a feather duster to remove the dust.


I can only fit so many in my bag when I travel. I never lose my page in an ebook.

I never lose my place in a paperback either, thanks to a nifty invention called a bookmark.


I loved my horse also, but eventually had to buy a car.

I know someone who has both a horse and a car (well, a truck). It's not as though all the people who liked riding died and became converted once the internal combustion engine was developed. Most people realized that horses and cars served different functions.

In fact, I think they still have horse races even though there's NASCAR. And we still have the RCMP even though the Toronto cops use cars. It's like both can co-exist in this world... sort of like paperbacks and e-books.

sarahdalton
09-12-2013, 04:27 PM
Here are my thoughts on the future, for what it's worth.

I think ebooks will become more popular and brick and mortar stores will struggle. But I think physical books will take a long, long time to diminish in popularity to the point that ebooks will be the norm. And even then, I think physical books will become luxurious items with beautiful covers to fill a different kind of demand, a little bit like vinyl or CDs. I imagine lots of boutique shops with cloth-bound books, but that's probably the romantic in me.

I know, I know, the music industry is very different to the book industry. It won't be exactly like that, I just have a feeling it might go in that direction.

Let's not forget that books are also used for studying, teaching and reference. I can't imagine buying textbooks on a Kindle!

I wonder whether Amazon are already coming up with a 'premium' stamp for self-published books. If they can figure out a way to mark a book as professionally edited I think they might do that.

We're already seeing self-publishing 'gatekeepers' (I'm using the term loosely and not in a derrogatory fashion) in things like Bookbub and E-Reader News Today.

I don't think trade-publishing will die. I think it will adapt. The optimist in me thinks both self-publishing and trade-publishing will coexist very nicely. :)

I do think/hope that self-publishers who put out quality books will get the respect they deserve and it would be nice to see a few pick up the odd award. I notice the Hugos included self-published work this year, which is great.

ETA: I also think you'll see lots of self-published authors establish themselves as a company(of one) with their own logo. I think the lines between trade and self-published will blur.

ETA2: And more hybrids. Print only deals...

cornflake
09-12-2013, 08:28 PM
I apologise to all the people I upset by predicting their demise or conversion to the dark side.

You may have noticed how publishers claim that the cost of producing en ebook and a print book are basically the same. Yet before the advent of the ebook, they justified their high cut of sales by pointing to distribution, printing, storage. Now they allocate these costs to something different.

http://michaelhyatt.com/why-do-ebooks-cost-so-much.html

I did not think I would evoke such hostility but the truth hurts. I agree that there are bigger quality issues in self publishing than in printed, but these barriers can be overcome. It just needs to reviewed by the right reviewers, or a stamp of quality, by an editing house. There are many solutions to the valid issues you have all raised.

I love a paper book also, and also have nostalgic memories from my youth, but they pile up in my house and take up room and gather dust. I can only fit so many in my bag when I travel. I never lose my page in an ebook. I loved my horse also, but eventually had to buy a car. My vinyl record collection ..... should I go on.

CW Browning, I wish you the best luck in all formats, and the rest of you also.

Really? Dude, this sounds like reality television - 'I'm just telling the truth, I can't help it if she got mad because I called her a ......'

It's your opinion, not the truth. What you're talking about hasn't happened.

heza
09-12-2013, 09:16 PM
In less than two weeks, I'll be going on my honeymoon. I have a tablet that I've started reading on a little bit (6 books so far this year). I still do most of my reading in print. I realized how great it will be to take my tablet on vacation. I don't have to use the limited room in my suitcase for books, and if I run out, I can just download more!

Then I realized, wait, there will be situations in which I just don't want to take a tablet--places where it could easily get stolen or lost, times I won't want to keep up with it, activities where it could be damaged by sand or water... so I'm also taking two print books for when I want to read down at the beach or take one hiking.

I would be really sad if print stopped being a thing. There are times when it's the most convenient medium.


As for the state of the industry: I have no idea. I worry about a future where self-publishing has become so popular and still fraught with issues that publishers have a hard time keeping up, to the point that if you want to be trade published, you basically have to write for free--or a low enough royalties that it might not be feasible to ever make a career of it again...

I don't have any evidence for that; it's just a general anxiety I have.

shadowwalker
09-12-2013, 10:14 PM
Just an aside, but does it seem to anyone else that there's some confusion about self-publishing and print? Trade publishers do ebooks, no? It just seems like the 'discussion' is mixing publishing mode with format. Or am I lost again?

Old Hack
09-12-2013, 10:32 PM
I wonder whether Amazon are already coming up with a 'premium' stamp for self-published books. If they can figure out a way to mark a book as professionally edited I think they might do that.

How would this work? Who would fund it? How would the editors be approved or accredited so that the books they'd worked on could be stamped in this way? And isn't this just a little bit like the whole "gatekeeper" system that the more evangelical self publishers object to in trade publishing?


I don't think trade-publishing will die. I think it will adapt. The optimist in me thinks both self-publishing and trade-publishing will coexist very nicely. :)

They're coexisting very nicely already, aren't they?


I do think/hope that self-publishers who put out quality books will get the respect they deserve and it would be nice to see a few pick up the odd award. I notice the Hugos included self-published work this year, which is great.

I would like to see writers get the respect they deserve, regardless of how they're published. I don't like the artificial divide which has been created between trade and self published authors: it only serves the vanity presses, scams and predators; it does nothing to help writers, publishers, or readers. We need to feel more like we're all good, and less like it's us vs them, whoever they might be.


ETA: I also think you'll see lots of self-published authors establish themselves as a company(of one) with their own logo. I think the lines between trade and self-published will blur.

Are you suggesting that setting oneself up as a company will help blur those lines?


ETA2: And more hybrids. Print only deals...

Writers have always been creative with how they get into print: most of the jobbing writers I know work with several publishers, of all different sizes; adding self publishing to the mix is a natural extension, and not as great a leap as one might think. Print-only deals aren't anything new either: I have several contracts which specify that my publishers only got hardback rights, or paperback, or audio or large print. What's new, I think, is that more is being understood about how rights work, and the importance of exploiting them to one's best advantage.


In less than two weeks, I'll be going on my honeymoon.

Congratulations! I hope you have a wonderful time.


I would be really sad if print stopped being a thing. There are times when it's the most convenient medium.

Print books work really well in areas where there's no power to charge e-readers, and in situations where people aren't going to want to take their e-readers, like on the beach or in the bath. So long as print books have this advantage they're not going to go away.

And consider how technology can get in the way of the information it's designed to display: what happens when today's e-readers go the way of the eight-track, or the Betamax? How will we be able to read our digital libraries then? Suddenly, print has another huge advantage.


As for the state of the industry: I have no idea. I worry about a future where self-publishing has become so popular and still fraught with issues that publishers have a hard time keeping up, to the point that if you want to be trade published, you basically have to write for free--or a low enough royalties that it might not be feasible to ever make a career of it again...

I don't have any evidence for that; it's just a general anxiety I have.

Readers will always want easy access to good books. So long as trade publishers continue to deliver this, they will stay in business; and so long as readers want to buy books, trade publishers will have to pay popular writers for their works if they don't want them to go and self publish.

And as the supply of established popular writers is going to decline it makes sense for publishers to nurture new talent, doesn't it?

So yes, I do think there will be changes over the next few years. But there have always been changes in publishing, and there always will. The most important thing writers can do is keep writing, to the best of their abilities.

girlyswot
09-12-2013, 11:24 PM
Are you suggesting that setting oneself up as a company will help blur those lines?

I think it does a bit. I've also seen a few authors co-ops springing up. They're not publishing companies open to submissions - they only publish their own work. But they work together for branding and marketing and I assume they also have co-op editors, cover artists and so on that they work with. Here's one, by way of example: http://montanabornbooks.com/ I don't know whether those co-ops 'count' as self publishing or trade publishing. I would guess it depends on the precise arrangements in place. But I do think they blur the lines.


So yes, I do think there will be changes over the next few years. But there have always been changes in publishing, and there always will. The most important thing writers can do is keep writing, to the best of their abilities.

Amen to that.

AnneGlynn
09-12-2013, 11:30 PM
Sarahdalton, I agree with much of what you've written. Thanks for posting.

Personally, I love my Kindle and enjoy reading on it daily. I also have a tablet and I read novels on it, too. I have a home computer and I've read novels on that machine also.

I also love to read hardbacks and paperbacks and the back of cereal boxes. Personally, I don't want any of those things to go away. Especially cereal boxes, since I often substitute Raisin Bran for a "real" dinner, in order to find just a little more writing time.

sarahdalton
09-13-2013, 12:03 AM
I think it does a bit. I've also seen a few authors co-ops springing up. They're not publishing companies open to submissions - they only publish their own work. But they work together for branding and marketing and I assume they also have co-op editors, cover artists and so on that they work with. Here's one, by way of example: http://montanabornbooks.com/ I don't know whether those co-ops 'count' as self publishing or trade publishing. I would guess it depends on the precise arrangements in place. But I do think they blur the lines.


Yeah that's what I mean.

When readers browse ebooks it's obvious when a book is self-published because it will say 'published on Amazon' unless the author has created their own 'publisher'. I've noticed it happening a lot recently. It just removes the prejudice that sometimes goes along with self publishing.

The premium stamp -- I don't know how it would be policed. It could be based on sales, reviews, listing accredited editors... who knows. Or maybe Amazon will subtley shift algorithms to filter out the good books. Either way, it's in their interest to deliver quality books to readers and so gatekeepers will crop up, no matter how many evangelists complain. They already are, as I mentioned Bookbub.

They coexist, but there's tension. I feel it, the awkward silence when someone asks you who you're published with... There's a prejudice there, but as the quality improves and self-published authors make the bestseller lists hopefully things will improve.

I agree about the us and them thing. On a personal note I get very tired about having to explain my reasoning over and over again. I understand that some people are genuinely curious about self-publishing but at the same time it can feel a bit like an interrogation of motives.

Even after a year I can't master multiquotes, I'm crap at it! And my RSI is playing up so I'll have to leave it at that.

merrihiatt
09-13-2013, 08:54 AM
When readers browse ebooks it's obvious when a book is self-published because it will say 'published on Amazon' unless the author has created their own 'publisher'. I've noticed it happening a lot recently. It just removes the prejudice that sometimes goes along with self publishing.


I think creating a false illusion that a book has been vetted by a publisher isn't the way to earn credibility and break down stereotypes and/or prejudices. I would feel duped if I purchased a book because I thought a professional publishing house had vetted the book and then found out the author had simply "created" ABC Publishing to hide the fact that they were self-publishing titles.

I know there are people who will not read my books because they are self-published. I am not going to change their minds by creating a false image that my book has been published by a publisher.

I am neither especially proud of being self-published or embarrassed by it. It is simply the choice I made for my titles.

merrihiatt
09-13-2013, 09:02 AM
I apologise to all the people I upset by predicting their demise or conversion to the dark side.

You don't have the power to make me upset or convert me.

I did not think I would evoke such hostility but the truth hurts.

Sharing our thoughts and opinions is not the same as being hostile. The truth only hurts when someone is living in denial of reality.

I agree that there are bigger quality issues in self publishing than in printed, but these barriers can be overcome. It just needs to reviewed by the right reviewers, or a stamp of quality, by an editing house. There are many solutions to the valid issues you have all raised.

Thank you for acknowledging our valid issues. This may be the first thing you have posted that I agree with. Let's celebrate! :partyguy:

I love a paper book also, and also have nostalgic memories from my youth, but they pile up in my house and take up room and gather dust.

I rather like dust. It gives the house a lived in, friendly look.

I can only fit so many in my bag when I travel. I never lose my page in an ebook. I loved my horse also, but eventually had to buy a car. My vinyl record collection ..... should I go on.

Please don't. I've found that I remember what I've read, especially if the book is good, and have no trouble finding my place again. When in doubt, use a bookmark. Album covers are a fabulous art form and have turned into collectors items. You may have lost a ton of money by tossing those old records.

CW Browning, I wish you the best luck in all formats, and the rest of you also.

Thank you! I wish you luck, too.

Marian Perera
09-13-2013, 02:07 PM
I rather like dust. It gives the house a lived in, friendly look.

You're free to visit me any time, Merri. :)

Old Hack
09-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Based on Merri's criteria, my house is one of the most friendly anyone could ever imagine.

Literateparakeet
09-13-2013, 04:37 PM
I would like to see writers get the respect they deserve, regardless of how they're published. I don't like the artificial divide which has been created between trade and self published authors: it only serves the vanity presses, scams and predators; it does nothing to help writers, publishers, or readers. We need to feel more like we're all good, and less like it's us vs them, whoever they might be.

Here! Here! I agree.


Even after a year I can't master multiquotes, I'm crap at it!

You can do it! I'll help. Look at the bottom right corner of every post and you will see three buttons. The first says "quote" that is for quoting one post. The next button has a quotation mark. That is the button you use to multi-quote. As you are reading through a thread, just click on that button on each post you want to respond to. One, two, or five times, it doesn't matter. Just click on the quotation mark button on each post you want to respond to until you finish reading the thread.

Then click "Reply" and like magic all those posts show up in quote boxes in your reply box waiting for your response. Try it, it's really easy when you get the hang of it.

merrihiatt
09-13-2013, 09:19 PM
You're free to visit me any time, Merri. :)
Thanks!

Based on Merri's criteria, my house is one of the most friendly anyone could ever imagine.
:)

I'm reminded of the line in The Lord of the Rings where Aragorn said, "Don't disturb the water." That's what I say about the dust.

sarahdalton
09-14-2013, 01:42 PM
Based on Merri's criteria, my house is one of the most friendly anyone could ever imagine.

Mine too!

I tend to distrust people without dust. Where do they get the time?



You can do it! I'll help. Look at the bottom right corner of every post and you will see three buttons. The first says "quote" that is for quoting one post. The next button has a quotation mark. That is the button you use to multi-quote. As you are reading through a thread, just click on that button on each post you want to respond to. One, two, or five times, it doesn't matter. Just click on the quotation mark button on each post you want to respond to until you finish reading the thread.

Then click "Reply" and like magic all those posts show up in quote boxes in your reply box waiting for your response. Try it, it's really easy when you get the hang of it.

Woop, thank you! One mystery solved. :)

PJanes
09-14-2013, 02:14 PM
You can do it! I'll help. Look at the bottom right corner of every post and you will see three buttons. The first says "quote" that is for quoting one post. The next button has a quotation mark. That is the button you use to multi-quote. As you are reading through a thread, just click on that button on each post you want to respond to. One, two, or five times, it doesn't matter. Just click on the quotation mark button on each post you want to respond to until you finish reading the thread.

Then click "Reply" and like magic all those posts show up in quote boxes in your reply box waiting for your response. Try it, it's really easy when you get the hang of it.
That is certainly easier than using copy and paste.

As for the actual topic of the thread, quality is an issue. I thought my work had been thoroughly scrutinized and combed over, but a kind reviewer pointed out there were still a few errors. Rather obvious ones, in fact.

eqb
09-14-2013, 09:13 PM
I tend to distrust people without dust. Where do they get the time?

Dust is a noun. Party is a verb.

TalkingTalk
09-15-2013, 12:04 AM
I am loath to write anything more. I feel like it is my first day at a new school and I have managed to upset just about everyone without even trying. I will not answer any of the posts.

I had no idea I was going off topic. I did not bring up the subject of self publishing. I did not realise that I could not say anything on the original thread about the subject. I was merely trying to encourage the original poster in the path she had begun.

I am from a technology and economics background so it is only natural that I see things from a different perspective. I look to the future, whether it is 5-10 or 50 years, I imagine how things will be. Most of the time my predictions are not far off but my timing of them is often very wrong.

One question has there been an event like "Radiohead - In Rainbows" in literature yet ? where a mainstream big player has published on their own yet. Or given away their book for a voluntary donation ?

I am a newbie and I should keep my opinions to myself and just toe the line.

Amadan
09-15-2013, 12:14 AM
I am a newbie and I should keep my opinions to myself and just toe the line.

Oh, never heard that one before.

Your problem is not that you are a technological visionary - there are a lot of us here who are deep into the technology field. Most of us understand these newfangled ebook thingies just fine.

Your problem is that you came in here trumpeting a lot of evangelistic fluff that is old hat to everyone here. Your proclamation of the death of traditional publishing is practically a copy&paste of the last umpteen similar proclamations.

eqb
09-15-2013, 12:25 AM
I love technology. I am a software engineer with 30+ years experience and when I decided to try out e-books, I dove right in. I am also trade-published. That does not mean I don't see, or understand, the difficulties that go with either route. To assume that is narrow-minded.


Your problem is that you came in here trumpeting a lot of evangelistic fluff that is old hat to everyone here. Your proclamation of the death of traditional publishing is practically a copy&paste of the last umpteen similar proclamations.

This.

TalkingTalk
09-15-2013, 10:34 AM
I seem to have a lot more problems than I was aware of.

It is one thing to expect a newbie to read the guide and another to expect them to read all 2500000 prior postings and be careful not to repeat anything said. Especially since my original posting was from one newbie to another and not an attack on anyone let alone the entire community.

I am finding it difficult to restrain myself from being defensive, I have been requested to be more polite and less sneery or no one will like me.

I am not here to be popular I am here to learn from others, share my ideas, get feedback and maybe find someone to collaborate with. I have had multiple sneery, snide, sarcastic and derisive comments aimed at myself. I wonder if the instigators they also received warnings from moderators.

I am prone to hyperbole and grandiose statements and speaking my mind, but this is a writers forum surely you can read between the lines. I do not feel that I have been directly hostile to anyone.

I imagine I will now be banned from the board due to the lack of my self restraint and my short lived promise to toe the line. Impulsivity has its price.

Goodbye all (perhaps)

quicklime
09-15-2013, 10:45 AM
I
I am prone to hyperbole and grandiose statements and speaking my mind, but this is a writers forum surely you can read between the lines. I do not feel that I have been directly hostile to anyone.

)


ok, the "poor bleeding me" bit aside, one could argue that as this is a writer's site, you actually own your words. So, you misspoke. Shit happens. But you aren't exactly gaining traction by claining victimhood over what was plain ill-informed instead of owning it....

TalkingTalk
09-15-2013, 11:32 AM
I dare anyone to defend or be nice to me.

Old Hack
09-15-2013, 11:54 AM
I seem to have a lot more problems than I was aware of.

It is one thing to expect a newbie to read the guide and another to expect them to read all 2500000 prior postings and be careful not to repeat anything said. Especially since my original posting was from one newbie to another and not an attack on anyone let alone the entire community.

Stop exaggerating. You're not expected to read everything here, and no one has suggested you should.

Your original post was off-topic for the thread you posted it in, which is why I split out into this separate thread; it was not taken as an attack, but your misconceptions have been pointed out.


I am finding it difficult to restrain myself from being defensive, I have been requested to be more polite and less sneery or no one will like me.

You're obviously failing at that restraint thing.


I am not here to be popular I am here to learn from others, share my ideas, get feedback and maybe find someone to collaborate with. I have had multiple sneery, snide, sarcastic and derisive comments aimed at myself. I wonder if the instigators they also received warnings from moderators.

Complaining in these non-specific terms is not constructive.

If you find any posts offensive or inappropriate, use the "report post" button. It's a red triangle with an exclamation mark inside.


I am prone to hyperbole and grandiose statements and speaking my mind, but this is a writers forum surely you can read between the lines. I do not feel that I have been directly hostile to anyone.

As has already been pointed out, you need to own your words and not complain that everyone else needs to read with more subtlety.


I imagine I will now be banned from the board due to the lack of my self restraint and my short lived promise to toe the line. Impulsivity has its price.

Goodbye all (perhaps)

And yet you're still here.


I dare anyone to defend or be nice to me.

People are being nice to you, TT. It's just that we showing our niceness through tough love.

Stop feeling so very sorry for yourself. Stop complaining. Start participating, keep an open mind, and you might start to realise what a wonderful place AW can be.

I'm going to lock this now.