Does subtlety do more harm than good?

To me, it seems obvious, especially when the author brings it up multiple times. For example, I knew Ged was not white since Ursula Le Guin made a point of it several times. People still insisted that he was white. (She put it in three times)

People also insisted that because someone's character, as in personality reminds someone of someone else's character that they can't be black, which happened in the Hunger Games.

There is also a point where harping on it becomes "exoticism" which authors also should avoid.

It's walking that fine line between too much and too little. And people who do write white characters have that luxury that there is no kind of subjugation because White is pretty. (Along with big pecs, big breasts, small butt, etc).

Personally, I have no problem with just outright saying it and also giving cultural tips in that direction. And if I'm going to set it on another world, I'm going to say it outright by giving tips about climate, mentioning hair, etc.

Also, there is somewhat of a burden on publishers, book sellers, cover artists and the general history overall. (And yes, readers, though this factors a lot less than I once thought.) When you are used to having only white people in books, then it becomes the default setting rather than question marks, which means one has to fight with the reader that this isn't the case. At the same time, you also have that privilege in place... so terms from the sub culture also are marked as "strange" and one has to "explain" them.

Makes it more difficult overall. So walking between the "This is exotic" <--meant offensive. And the "This is not a big deal" makes it harder.

I, personally think that everyone should know what a kebab is. A sari is and know the basics of worldwide Gods outside of the Judeo Christian one. And also know more antiquated terms for places--not just the ones in Europe or the ones that contribute to European History. But I lose out because the majority don't know those terms.

You get slammed for "not being understandable" But those very terms makes you realize where the thing is set and the characters are screaming at you, "I am not white!"

That may be part of the issue too... History, willful ignorance, and a history of poor education really do contribute.

I agree. I am a visual reader and writer,too. I need description, not pussy footing around. I don't believe in this subtlety concerning POC whatsoever. I'm real with my descriptions and intend to be just as real with my covers. I feel like this removes any potential readers who have issues with POC characters. I serve notice upfront to keep it moving if you are one of these people.

On the other hand, I think a big reason for subtlety from non POC writers is that they do NOT want to be accused of anything improper. I tease some of my White writer buddies all the time because they get in high dudgeon about using terms like caramel,mocha,etc. I have a friend literally terrified of offending anybody. They don't want to use cultural terms either. They don't want to be accused of getting things wrong or worse,cultural appropriation.

As a Black writer,I can be as Black as I wanna be with characters and nothing will be said to me. A non Black writer wanting to be diverse with characters doesn't have that option. One misstep-real or perceived- and it's a wrap! Even when a writer is upfront,some people will still read a character as White. We all saw what happened with The Hunger Games fiasco.

So,it really is hard to pin down. I go more on the side it does more harm than good. Readers desperately want characters who resemble them and to open a book and see that character reduced to a few sentences or chapters-with no cultural elements or description-sells the illusion of inclusion. To be blunt,it's condescending. It feels like" Okay,here's someone of color. No more whining from you all. Now read." It gets publishers and editors off the hook in their minds concerning diversity.

That doesn't help these readers whatsoever.

I think it depends on POV. I think it would be equally a mistake for a white character's POV to go on and on about straight hair. I mean it doesn't make sense usually for a character to describe themselves at length.

I prefer a subtle touch (probably because I've been criticized for overly describing characters who were in fact dark-white and I didn't want them assumed to be white because I don't like the idea of assuming a default color). When I read I'm waiting for the author to tell me about the character, I was disappointed once when I was reading a book for a second time and never realized one of the MC's was in fact Portuguese.

It was pretty clear in the context, but the author only gave one description and expected me to know that for a couple of books (I don't even remember the sequels revisiting it).

So I prefer a subtle touch regardless of color, but reinforce. Tell me a couple times up front and then from time to time throughout.

I totally agree with Akasha and Kitty. The tiptoeing is annoying. If I'm writing about the baddest assassin in the Milky Way, who happens to be black, and look very good black (especially while ripping cyborg dictators to shreds), my readers will damn well know about it.

Hey, first chapter of my book: sari, jasmine, ciina, Vishnu, Rama, Lakshmi, Sita, Putri, Dhai Ma, Hanuman, Gandarva, bangles, sandles, Brahmin, Buddha, Ahura Mazda, Ambaa, Damayanti... if you willfully think that these people are white. There are issues. Real issue you need to work through. And I haven't even gotten to skin color yet. (I bring it up in context a few times) (Plus I have black hair, black eyes... someone North African shows up as a bodyguard. I'm guessing Tunisia, but I need research.)

I go over skin color, food, etc.

To me, you can load it and slap them upside the head without the physical description.

Second chapter uses, Mudang, Paksu, Talhae, Mountain Grandfather Spirit and his Tiger, Yeon deung (Goddess of the Wind)), top knot (with hair loose below it), Garak, Sujini, Kerim. (POV character coming in describes him later in physical terms a few times)

I'm making it really, really hard for people to picture these characters as white. As in, you lived in a hole and didn't ever learn about Buddhism or Hinduism.

Despite that, I've gotten a few notes of "What is Ciina?" And "Too many strange names." Screw that. Deal. You can wait and figure it out when I say things like "The Analects." by Zhong Ni, or mention the Ma Yuan of Ciina's march against Xiongnu and Xianbei. If you can't figure it out from that, I can't help you. I give up on you as a reader.

If they want to insist those characters are white, I tried. But some of it is simply on the reader by that point. And no amount of tipping your hand and showing them, through physical or cultural features will help them understand you.

But still, you gotta do it well.

I've pretty much purged purply prosodic descriptions of hair color and eye color from my writing, so I'm not going to bother describing skin color either.

I'll just remark what race a character is if it matters to me.

Which — yes — also means my PoC narrators are remarking when characters are white, too. A little subversion of default assumptions.

(It's not meant to be subtle, but the only indicator a narrator in a recent story of mine is PoC is when he remarks that his father is white, as a contrast to his cousins. Easy to miss maybe, but still rather obvious, I think.)

I agree Akasha, I wouldn't hold back for fear of offending someone. Honestly I don't know anyone who even gets offended by the race of a fictional character (or real person for that matter).

My only reason for being subtle is the current style of description that I'm used to. It's kind of like when guys write female fantasy characters and go on and on about their breasts and hair. A real woman lives with her breasts and hair so they're probably not on her mind unless they grab her attention (same as I never think about my little toe until it gets stubbed). A prosaic description runs the danger of pulling out of the story if the POV has no reason to make the description.

Likewise, I doubt a PoC goes through life thinking, "Man, I'm black. Here let me get my coffee cup with my brown skinned hand. Later I'll run a comb through my dark brown hair." I'd imagine, maybe I'm wrong, that their hand would simply be their hand and the hair their hair.

So yeah I'd make it clear, but I'd make the character have a reason for the description and then reinforce it throughout. Same as I would any NPoC (cause white's not a color right =).

I hope you don't mind me joining in?

This is something I struggle with tbh, but is subtlety a bad thing? I'm not sure because I like subtlety in writing, I like it when things aren't spoonfed to me, but then again, yeah I totally see the OP's point, let's not shilly shally, why not just say it? So it's going to be a fine balance.

Kitty27 said:

A non Black writer wanting to be diverse with characters doesn't have that option. One misstep-real or perceived- and it's a wrap!

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There's that too! Mind it was all Kitty's* fault that all the characters (bar two blink and miss-em's) in the series in my sig are not white. SFF is far to bloody white, and I think it's important for it to get over that, and I want to help (and please tell me when I've cocked it up, kk? In my posts or books, just tell me I'm being an idiot, because I'm here to learn) because if I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem, right?


I didn't make a huge deal of it (not just because did not want to come across as HEY LOOK I AM SO PROGRESSIVE - PAT MY WHITE BACK!) because, well, it isn't a big deal to the characters. Though this is second world fantasy, so I had that option to make it not such a big deal (except in matters of class, ie, the darker you are, the richer because you get to see the sun occasionally), but it would have seemed weird if my protag was going round saying 'hey, he's brown!' because, well, because everyone is brown! And also, if I made a big deal of it, and got it wrong, weeellll....

At least I know not to use the food-colours thanks to you guys. I do not wish Kitty's anger However, in my current WIP there's much more of a mix of ethnicities so I'm going with more description.


*I doubt she realises it, but it was a post of hers that sparked it all off....

Missus Akasha said:

If authors who write about white characters drone on and on about how blue their eyes are, how pale their skin is, or how straight and long their auburn hair is, why should authors who write about PoC characters feel the need to sneak in details? Just tell me straight out that your black character have dark brown skin and amber eyes.

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The thing is, I don't think authors should drone on about hair color and eye color and blahblah, period. It's boring. Quick reference to a couple physical characteristics and then get on with it.

Maybe more of a "this is how much description I like to read/write in general" issue?

Mr Flibble said:

I hope you don't mind me joining in?

This is something I struggle with tbh, but is subtlety a bad thing? I'm not sure because I like subtlety in writing, I like it when things aren't spoonfed to me, but then again, yeah I totally see the OP's point, let's not shilly shally, why not just say it? So it's going to be a fine balance.

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This, basically.

I didn't make a huge deal of it (not just because did not want to come across as HEY LOOK I AM SO PROGRESSIVE - PAT MY WHITE BACK!) because, well, it isn't a big deal to the characters. Though this is second world fantasy, so I had that option to make it not such a big deal (except in matters of class, ie, the darker you are, the richer because you get to see the sun occasionally), but it would have seemed weird if my protag was going round saying 'hey, he's brown!' because, well, because everyone is brown! And also, if I made a big deal of it, and got it wrong, weeellll....

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FWIW, I just started reading Fade to Black, and I thought it was neither too subtle nor too beat-me-over-the-heady.

This is interesting. After reading Rachel's description of her book I felt like I'd gone on a trip to India. No trouble in imagining her characters at all.

I'd agree it's a fine line between too much and too little. For me, I'd rather just mention it once or twice and then let the character evolve and the action play itself out. That's just me, however.

I'm one of those readers that is not very visual, and I have to say, since I tend to skim over descriptions of eyes or hair or whathaveyou, a description of a character's racial characteristics without straight up telling me the race is something I am likely to miss, particularly if that description isn't super amazing and thus more likely to get my attention.

I just read another Octavia Butler book and she is rather a minimalist. Wish I could find a passage. Anyway, she leaves the characters' races clear and unambiguous, but manages to do so without beating the reader over the head or giving long descriptions of their traits (which I can kinda do without regardless of the characters' color). In one case, she does like Kuwis describes, when the black PoV character mentions when other characters are white. In another, she does it situationally, when the white PoV character has to explain a couple of times that no, really, his multiracial daughters are in fact his kids. These examples stick far better than something about eye shape or vague color words or, God forbid, coffee and its various flavor additives.

I remember a line from one of AW's own Richard Garfinkle's books in which he clearly states that some characters (they were a family mentioned in passing, IIRC) have Bantu features. This I liked too, because "Bantu" is simply not a word you come across very often, and as someone who did a good bit of African literature and historical studies while in college, my brain immediately snaps on "oh, the eastern part of Africa!" And someone who didn't know the word might be struck by it enough to look it up.

I prefer all these examples to Ursula le Guin's (again, not picturing characters much if at all, I might've even missed Ged's skin tone though she mentions it three times if I hadn't known about the controversy surrounding the book covers) or Neil Gaiman's (where he tells you about two thirds of the way through The Anansi Boys that the main is a PoC).

Quality over quantity, IMO. Though it's another matter when dealing with an entire separate culture, with PoC's in America or Europe, you can make it memorable once or twice and there isn't a need for redundancy or pages of description that may wear a reader's patience.

Something springs to mind. Does the race of the MC/LI matter? Cuz I think if it doesn't, all the coloring can be either a natural reflex of the authors (normal and may contain bonus social themes) or attempts to strike a balanced mix or marketing effort/gimmicks (amen).

Let's say the MC is black and she lives in a small town in the middle of nowhere comprising of a balanced racial mix. Everyone at her school and town gets along amicably (at least nothing negative has been mentioned). No racial conflicts. They come from similar financial backgrounds and dress alike. The book is about how she fights off her destination of becoming a vampire with the help of the boy she has been having a crush on. Does her skin color really matter other than having Nicole Fiscella stars the movie adaptation?

Real-life story: Coco Vandeweghe is a pro tennis player. When she was about 18 she went to Moscow, Russia, for a tournament. One day she toured the places by herself and got hungry so she decided to have lunch. She didn't know what to eat and she didn't understand Russian. So guess what? She ate at McDonald's. She tweeted about it and fans fell off chairs laughing. Coco is white, but an African/Asian/Hispanic American would likely have done the same. It's about upbringing and personality.

Now, if the MC lives in NYC and he whines about getting excessive "stop and frisk" by the NYPD, then chances are he is black/Hispanic. IMHO he'd better be, to be convincing and to bring in tension. Written well & researched well (or with RL experience) it can make a great theme on top of fighting vampires.

A book I've been reading is about a 15 yo from Greenpoint, Brooklyn. The book has very little, if any at all, description about her and I have assumed her to be white (cuz that neighborhood is overwhelmingly white with ~40% Polish American). If the author had intended her to be a POC, he ought to have mentioned/hinted it when introducing her. OTOH, if she had come from East Harlem, and nothing is mentioned about her skin color or ethnic background, I'd simply assume that she's a Hispanic, likely Puerto Rican.

Bing Z said:

Does her skin color really matter other than having Nicole Fiscella stars the movie adaptation?
...It's about upbringing and personality.

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It's not a matter of racial politics or informing the character background, IMO. It's a matter of representation, and of PoC's being able to find books with main characters who look like them, and of books not falsely reflecting a whites-only world.

Representation is always important but it is critically important at certain key young ages in a person's life when one is searching harder for ego reflections within a narrative - such as when one is primarily browsing the young adult section of the bookstore or library.

I don't think anyone is saying being of color is critical to a character's (or person's) personality. Like most things, it is a part of you, but does not define you. (I am guessing, being a white person myself.)

Books featuring PoC's as mains shouldn't have to be special tales about racial relations, and the idea that they should reflects a white privileged view of the world, IMO.

ETA: Plus, books as well as other forms of art reflect and reinforce our sociocultural milieu, do they not?

A black girl from the southeast should be able to kick ass in a sci-fi dystopia, an Indian guy should be able to fly on rocket ships in a space fantasy, an Asian girl from the West Coast should be able to fall in love in love with a werewolf, no? Why the heck not? Why should white be the default?

+1 on Yorkist.

If we did live in a world where it was getting written that way, then maybe. But seeing people either not like you or being written looking, but not acting like you causes issues in the long run.

So even if your book is like that, as said, doesn't mean the world is like that. Also color blind doesn't really work because of the discrepancies.

I agree with Akasha, Rachel, Kitty27, and I'm sure more. I have heard from white writers not wanting to offend, I myself have learned from describing skin tone as caramel or chocolate, but in the end, there's really no excuse to make it so vague the readers don't get it. But sometimes like with Rue I don't see how some could miss it!

Just reading through this again and it leapt out at me -- are there people who do not know what a kebab is?

Books featuring PoC's as mains shouldn't have to be special tales about racial relations, and the idea that they should reflects a white privileged view of the world, IMO.

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And also to consider that things are very different in different countries. Was talking to a co worker not so long ago - he is of Trinidad descent, bit born in the UK. And he was gobsmacked talking to a couple of African Americans. Because of the differences in their lives -- not to say the UK is a utopia (lol) but the aspects of racism are very different, their experiences were very different. The US has its problems, and we may not have some of those, but boy do we have others! It was almost like two people fro opposite worlds talking.

Non-white Brits have different experiences/expectations as regards to race. And that is going to affect anyone brought up in those areas. So that's an additional factor to consider -- what is an issue in the US may not be elsewhere, and vice versa.

Books featuring PoC's as mains shouldn't have to be special tales about racial relations

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Frankly, I would not go there myself, because I don't think I could ever do enough research for that. Buy a POC in a tale where it isn't about race? Where they can just 'be' because the skin colour isn't a plot point? I'd like to do that more often ( and probably will. Looks at WIPS. Yeah, looks like I will. And why not -- like I say, if I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. I'd like to do my part getting POC writers recognition too)

ETA: I'm not adding these characters for any other reason than I think it's important to have them. If I can help, coolio. That doesn't mean that POC writers shouldn't be MUCH better represented, and I'd love to help with that if I can. Hopefully this will be a group effort kind of thing

Mr. Flibble, I was about to make a similar point myself.

I'm not about to write a tale on teh race relations, for I am not up to such a thing. But when white people ask "Why should this character be a PoC?" I propose an alternative question - "Why should this character not be a PoC?"

There are a few valid reasons why not. Maybe this character is Charles II. Or maybe she belongs to an ancient society of Picts. Or maybe he's a member of an eyeless humanoid subterranean cave-dwelling race that has no need for melanin. But otherwise - why the heck not?

I am white (a PoW? Uh... no... hmm), and while I'm not a total neanderthal - I have always been conscious of supporting PoC authors - the issue of character PoC representation would have not occurred to me, due to my own privilege-based blinders, if I hadn't been acquainted with a college English department and the magical negro archetype. But once I discovered that archetype, it got me thinking, a discourse which had advanced greatly since I discovered this place. "Man, it must suck when most of the characters in fiction who share your racial or ethnic background are slaves, or villains, or sage martial arts masters, or whatever, and almost none of them are the heroes, characters with agency, the writers of their own destinies."

And it isn't like you have to be of color to understand this. The same goes when you have a minority religion, when you're a woman, queer, possess an unorthodox ideology, or whatever. If all the examples of your group you saw fit only stereotypes or predetermined minor roles, wouldn't that hurt? Eventually, wouldn't it get to you?

And yeah, I hope to God this doesn't sound like white savior talking, but as allies, I do think that writers not of color bear a small portion of responsibility in this matter. At the very least we can question our own assumptions and make an effort to improve the diversity of our casts without assigning the token black friend.

My WIP actually does fit rather into one of the examples set above (closest to the Charles II and Pict ones), but this has just made me realize, at the very least I can include some north African tradespeople in the narrative, if not a couple of strong minor characters with roles in the plot. At the very least, PoC's should exist and that existence should be acknowledged in the text.

Mr Flibble said:

Just reading through this again and it leapt out at me -- are there people who do not know what a kebab is?

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I get you on this. =P But yes. I once did this game where I sent in pages (you don't win anything or representation) and the agent lives in NYC (which is ethnically diverse for those that don't know) and she didn't know what a kebab was...

; My Aunt knew what it was... and lived in NYC (read my profile mini bio and you'll get the multiple references bits)

Sometimes it's odd...

And also to consider that things are very different in different countries. Was talking to a co worker not so long ago - he is of Trinidad descent, bit born in the UK. And he was gobsmacked talking to a couple of African Americans. Because of the differences in their lives -- not to say the UK is a utopia (lol) but the aspects of racism are very different, their experiences were very different. The US has its problems, and we may not have some of those, but boy do we have others! It was almost like two people fro opposite worlds talking.

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I saw a video on this. The old brown eyes blue eyes thing... Was the last one. I think I linked it, and it's a bit hard to Google, so I'll summarize.

Jane Elliot, who came up with this after Martin Luther King, Jr. died, said she'd do it one last time on British television. So they set it up, but the hosts of the show were convinced (despite him being of Indian descent) there was no racism. (You can see where this is going).

So Jane Elliot gives the brown-eyed group the privilege (adults), lets them have snacks, and eat good food and lets them have the answers for a test.

However hell breaks loose when one of the participants realizes that they are given the answers.

Then the real discussion on race begins.... (This is still about GB).

And some things *do* look the same. Such as one father says that he gets unfairly judged for having dreadlocks, so he has trouble going to school to pick up his children. (He's married to someone white).

So this white woman gets indignant that there could be racism, and says (roughly) "You know why, because you look shaggy." (He's wearing a nice button down shirt and trousers)

So, yeah, some things are the same... She feels "attacked" and then walks out. Her exit video is all about how there is no racism, after being told by two PoCs there was.

Jane Elliot, in turn had to give the smack down to the station interviewer who tried to debunk everything. And did so beautifully.

Was educational to me. Some of the problems in GB with racism do match. (I'd been told repeatedly there was none... or very little)

Also the show where they show the evolution of the family, and then they had black people move in... Yeah. That was some harsh racism there, which mirrored, though for similar, but different roots the American. (As in manifested in a similar manner, were for similar root reasons, but the origin was different).

Yorkist said:

There are a few valid reasons why not.

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I'm trying to find regency sources on racism/race relations.... 'cause along with the crazy penguins trying to guide the aristocracy, I'd still like to have PoCs around, which I'm sure will upset some people. But really, there has to be some PoCs in GB. If there is a population in Elizabethan times, then Regency has to have a population too. Jane Austen mentions the slave trade.

Even during the crusades there were PoCs... mostly from North Africa due to conversion, etc.

while I'm not a total neanderthal

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*Geek alert*
=P Australopithecus Afarensis? Now thought to not be a direct ancestor, but they are still debating it.

Neanderthal were actually quite intelligent, sturdy and could speak language. Some believe they were close enough to blend into the human line, but it's debated. Got a bad wrap for their body build, I think.

Kinda like saying to someone you are going ape... you already are one.
*End geeking*

My WIP actually does fit rather into one of the examples set above (closest to the Charles II and Pict ones), but this has just made me realize, at the very least I can include some north African tradespeople in the narrative, if not a couple of strong minor characters with roles in the plot. At the very least, PoC's should exist and that existence should be acknowledged in the text.

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*nods* Trade, as a concept predated homo sapiens sapiens. Homo Erectus often traded locally, such that objects that originated in Africa would be found in Asia. And the invention of the sail boat dates roughly to 6,000 BCE (IIRC). Rafts, it's speculated were also made by Homo Erectus too. Not to mention the Polynesians... (who were amazing).

No reason for them *not* to pop in the background.

Another great myth people believe is that trade across the Western hemisphere didn't happen until much, much later. But the majority of history talks about trade, sometimes in a lifetime and over long distances. *cough* Silk Road....

ETA: http://www.black-history.org.uk/

*.* I am happy.

Rachel, IIRC, it was if not always illegal to actually have slaves within the U.K. - the idea was that once a slave entered English soil s/he was free - it definitely was by the Regency era. There would have been PoC's around I'm sure (there always have been) but that would explain their relatively tiny numbers. (Of black folks anyway.)

Appreciate your geekdom re: neanderthals and trade. I had no idea that homo erectus practiced trade, but I did know that homo sapiens trading by sea has been around much longer than most people think. My WIP is set around 2000 B.C., so yeah, no reason why folks from northern Africa and the ME should not make a brief appearance at least.

I found some sources for Regency... (though I get this is a minor derail)

Queen Charlotte, for example, was thought to have been part African descent. (Ignore the Wikipedia article since they are POV on the subject and trying to argue her white 100%--there is a contingent trying to do so.). http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/royalfamily.html

So it looks like the majority were slaves until they were freed. Also, from what I found, it seems like African peoples have been living in GB greater than most people think, but due to intermarriage, etc, the features fade over time. (See previous post with link. Kinda what I expected)

There were some people mentioned to be prominent....

http://www.christianregency.com/Research/Regency-Life/people-problems-practices/regency-blacks.pdf <-- Waaahhh~

Also the link in my previous post is interesting too.

I also found it interesting that Queen Charlotte was thought to be the *second* Queen thought to have African ancestry.

(I have a lot of love for hidden histories...)

So, I think, definitely no reason not to mention black people during regency. Queen Charlotte... the abolitionist movement and so on.

Still, I would love to find an account of the average person living in GB of African Descent. For example, a comparison between those who were in enclaves in Elizabethian times and those that came with slavery. I know records are shoddy, but I wish I could sniff some clues to do a nice reconstruction.

^^;; Sorry to the OP for the History geekery derail.

Back to the original...

On the first, I don't think there is an excuse to not at least mention there are people who look different within and from outside of a given population. Trade has been with humans long before our species. Trade is an amazing thing, 'cause you realize how small our planet can appear and how much people can achieve. With paper and written records, there must be at least an awareness. Maybe not a PC awareness, but still an awareness. (Unless you are Truman...)

On the second point of describing, I don't think you need to shirk away and it should be an even balance... though I prefer simple over complex, such as dark brown skin. Medium brown, etc. 'cause I generally hate flowery language for the sake of it "sapphire eyes and creamy skin...". Also augment with cultural cues. With the lack of cultural cues, you can still slip it into dialogue. And put it in early.

And thirdly, sometimes you gotta ditch the reader. Some people miss entire scenes of you describing it 'cause it just doesn't jive with their world. Those people arguing about the Hunger Games and feeling insulted, even when its pointed out (especially when they preface it with, "I'm not a racist but...")... ditch 'em.

Rachel Udin said:

I get you on this. =P But yes. I once did this game where I sent in pages (you don't win anything or representation) and the agent lives in NYC (which is ethnically diverse for those that don't know) and she didn't know what a kebab was...

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Over here, surviving a drunken late night kebab is one of the initiations into adulthood.

I saw a video on this. The old brown eyes blue eyes thing... Was the last one. I think I linked it, and it's a bit hard to Google, so I'll summarize.

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Oh I think I saw that! Or a version of (a school teacher did it?) Illuminating

Some of the problems in GB with racism do match. (I'd been told repeatedly there was none... or very little)

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Hahaha, no. Whoever told you that was talking outta their arse -- just look at the BNP and EDL for starters, and those are just the organised guys. Sadly it's not the case there is none -- it may be the case that it is expressed differently, or as you say the origin was different)

Another great myth people believe is that trade across the Western hemisphere didn't happen until much, much later. But the majority of history talks about trade, sometimes in a lifetime and over long distances. *cough* Silk Road....

ETA: http://www.black-history.org.uk/

*.* I am happy.

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Hell yeah, trade went on really early, and there was a lot of moving back and forth along trade routes. Now, maybe most people in a given rural area might not have seen someone who was different from them, but anyone living in a trading centre or on a trade route would be at least passingly familiar with ethnicities that were not their own.

It's an issue I wrestled with. My WIP is a zombie novel focusing on a fourth-grade girl rescuing her little sister's kindergarten class from the apocalypse.

I refer to myself as a "Snoopy" writer. I bang out the title and the first few sentences, maybe a chapter, then cut and grow until it's a book. In this case, the title my fingers pounded out for the first chapter was "The Fall of P.S. 43", with the "43" being a random number.

When it came time to write the second chapter I did some research on PS 43, and discovered that Bronx PS 43 was 40% black, 60% Hispanic, and a big chunk of that 60% Hispanic was Dominican and other similar groups of black Hispanics. 99% are so poor that they get free lunches from school. 30% of the children in K-3 cannot function in English.

The whole background and flavor of the novel really flowed out of that: that the class wasn't a bunch of wealthy suburban privileged children, that ESL problems made it hard for the children to work together, things like that.

When I finished the first pass, I found out that my first beta reader didn't have any problems figuring out that little Jose, Rosarita, Lucia, and Maria were Hispanic, but had not figured out until midway through the book that Letitia, Jahayra, Jada, Tiara, Tyrone and Darnell were black. That was during a scene where Letitia was complaining that the books she had found to help them learn how to do things for themselves were all full of these pictures of big happy white guys. The light suddenly went off over the reader's head.

I reworked dialogue and dialect a bit. I inserted a scene early in the story dealing with the mundane issue of the older girl's efforts to groom the littler girls' hair now that there weren't any mothers around to relax and treat it. That scene confused my second beta reader, because her mental image of the children still had the wrong appearance.

Now, I explicitly identify Letitia as being Jamaican on the first page. I still don't get into details of who is chocolate colored and who is leather colored and who is really dark, just because it really doesn't make any difference to the plot.