Kim Jong-un allegedly has ex-lover executed

Hmm.... are we sure this is true?

Waiting for confirmation, but it wouldn't surprise me. He's a psychpath like his father was, only worse, and he's only thirty or so. That means another forty years of misery for the N. Korean people unless they revolt--yeah, right!--and fire his fat ass into the sun.

Hmmm..... I don't pay much attention to whether this kind of stuff is true or not. He's South Korea's Boogie Man. So who knows whats true and what's not.

It's up to the North Koreans whether he goes or whether he says. Ain't no-one elses business.

And other brutally oppressive regimes have been booted out by the people before now. It's up to them.

mirandashell said:

And other brutally oppressive regimes have been booted out by the people before now. It's up to them.

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Yeah, fuck 'em.

That isn't what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.


And if you don't agree with me. what would you do?

mirandashell said:

That isn't what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.


And if you don't agree with me. what would you do?

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I wouldn't pretend the matter is simple and up to people who have been brutalized for generations. Saying "it's up to the North Koreans" is nonsense, imo. The masses there are not gonna overthrow the current regime on their own, imo, as things currently stand. They just aren't. They have no power whatsoever.

Have there been successful revolutions against oppressive regimes? Sure. There have also been a ton of failed ones.

Consider the Estonians, who very much did not want to be a part of the Soviet Union. They continued to resist their new masters for many years. The Soviets simply deported huge numbers of native Estonians and imported non-Estonians, thus tilting the demographics to minimize support for the would-be revolutionaries. That was back in the forties and fifties. The Estonians were simply beaten down.

Their independence arrived because of larger geo-political events and granted they took the chance when it came, but they didn't just do it on their own. They could never have done it earlier, as history showed.

So saying "it's up to them" is very much a "fuck 'em" proposition in my book.

Well, that's your opinion, not mine.

You can disagree all you like. Just don't put words in my mouth.

mirandashell said:

It's up to the North Koreans whether he goes or whether he says.

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It's probably more up to China. Normally the sort of dynastic succession you see in NK would be difficult to maintain long-term when conditions are as bad as they are in a place like NK, but it's easier when you're essentially a client-state. I don't think the answer is any sort of full-scale western intervention, but I wonder if steps could be taken to persuade China that letting go of NK would be in their own interest.

The most likely scenario for a regime change is a military coup...which would probably not change much since few revolutionary leaders turn out to have much altruism.

mirandashell said:

It's up to the North Koreans whether he goes or whether he says. Ain't no-one elses business.

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Except for the whole human rights is everyone's business aspect.

(Proud member of Amnesty International)

Michael Wolfe said:

It's probably more up to China. Normally the sort of dynastic succession you see in NK would be difficult to maintain long-term when conditions are as bad as they are in a place like NK, but it's easier when you're essentially a client-state. I don't think the answer is any sort of full-scale western intervention, but I wonder if steps could be taken to persuade China that letting go of NK would be in their own interest.

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The Chinese have a major obsession with saving face. They're never letting go, IMO, because they'd lose face. I'm not sure that "in their own interest" is enough to overcome that. Maybe we need to make it so what supporting NK is what makes them lose face?

I'm not sure that would be enough, but it might open the door.

Michael Wolfe said:

It's probably more up to China. Normally the sort of dynastic succession you see in NK would be difficult to maintain long-term when conditions are as bad as they are in a place like NK, but it's easier when you're essentially a client-state. I don't think the answer is any sort of full-scale western intervention, but I wonder if steps could be taken to persuade China that letting go of NK would be in their own interest.

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Never happen for a variety of reasons, with the major ones being:

1. China appreciates the fact that a militarized and aggressive DPRK ties up US military resources

2. A broken and leaderless DPRK will lead to a surge of refugees into China, which it cannot sustain

3. Said surge would expose China's rather dire economic limits the CCP has worked hard for years to contain.

veinglory said:

Except for the whole human rights is everyone's business aspect.

(Proud member of Amnesty International)

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Yeah.... cos putting Western military in countries that don't like the West always works.....

mirandashell said:

Yeah.... cos putting Western military in countries that don't like the West always works.....

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I wasn't specifying anything other than that human beings who aren't North Korean have a legitimate concern about what happens to human beings who are North Korean.

I have a concern. But there's nothing I can do it about it. So then it's just one more thing to worry about. And I have enough of those already. So forgive me if I'm selfish but I admit, NK is fairly low on the list.

mirandashell said:

Yeah.... cos putting Western military in countries that don't like the West always works.....

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No one said the only way to approach things is by military invasion.

I get your position: it's no one else's business, it's up to the people there, alone. And you are free to hold such a position; many people agree with you.

But that means you have to pretty much accept whatever abuses occur within other nations as a matter of course. if you want to be consistent in this regard. It also means no foreign aid of any sort, really. After all, it's no one else's business. And that would extend to disaster relief and the like as well.

mirandashell said:

I have a concern. But there's nothing I can do it about it. So then it's just one more thing to worry about. And I have enough of those already. So forgive me if I'm selfish but I admit, NK is fairly low on the list.

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Again, I wasn't specifying anything other than that human beings who aren't North Korean have a legitimate concern about what happens to human beings who are North Korean. Not which people have to have what level of concern or what they have to do about it.

The only way the DPRK will fade into history is through massive, overwhelming violence. This is mostly something that, by rights, should be left to South Korea. But as those who have journeyed to the area with some regularity already know, denizens of the RoK have no sympathy for the north, and are highly unlikely to do anything to disrupt their economy. (War tends to do that.)

Torgo said:

Eh, I don't think anyone's advocated military intervention in North Korea yet? I would certainly like *something* to happen to ameliorate the wretched lives of North Korean folk, but I certainly don't have any solutions.

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No, sorry I made a logical leap that kind of went a little sideways.

but I certainly don't have any solutions.

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And that part is my point. We have no solutions. Or else we could have used them ages ago. Nothing we do here makes a damn bit of difference. And there's only so much I can worry about at once.