A Few Random British Questions

AHMackenna · Aug 21, 2013

I'm working on a contemporary novel set on an estate in Northumberland. I lived in London for a couple years, but its amazing how much I've forgotten/never learned. Any help is much appreciated!

1. Does anyone actually read Tatler magazine besides Anglophile tourists and the people in it?

2. Is there a game or hobby that is popular with older generations of Brits (mostly women) similar to Bingo or Bunco?

3. Do British universities give random scholarships like American ones do?

4. Are there any particular phrases or sayings particular to northern England? Do Scottish phrases often creep in close to the border?

Thanks in advance!

waylander · Aug 21, 2013

1. Tatler must have readers as they continue to exist but it seems very London and home counties-centric.

2. Bingo

3. The old established universities (certainly Oxford and Cambridge) do a few, they're not worth much. The prestige is in the name. With the change in funding, they are bursaries for students from poor backgrounds. But the student still has to take out loans to cover the fees.
4. Its a whole different language up there, loads of dialect words.

LilahLangdon · Aug 22, 2013

1. Agree with Waylander (whilst I have heard of it, I didn't actually know it was an English magazine... so...).

2. Bingo is probably a good one to go with, again as Waylander has said. Aside from that, whilst not a game, I know locally dancing and attending charitable functions (such as bake sales, barn dances etc.) are actually pretty popular (probably more a village thing).

3. Not really. Again, we have the student loan system. There are some grants/bursaries available if you know where to look, but they're not very common at all - I guess because the loans are so widely available.

4. You're going to have to be more specific on exactly where you're talking. Northern slag is plentiful and mad.

So, mostly what waylander said, but it never hurts to have some further confirmation on an answer.

ClareGreen · Aug 22, 2013

Waylander's given you the scoop on the other points, but...

4. It's a whole different sound even 25 miles from where you start, in England, a whole different language a hundred miles away, and it's all very organic. A border Scot and a border Englishman are much, much more similar to each other, linguistically, than they are to those in their capital city. A region's accent and dialect are closely tied to those nearby, but never quite the same even from village to village. There aren't really many 'Northern' phrases, because 'the North' is a proud and massively varied tapestry when you're in it.

Those phrases more associated with Scotland will be on the border, with a few sneaking as far south as southern Cumbria, but by the time you get to Wigan they're all gone. An outsider can't really untangle what properly belongs to one particular place or know what's slang picked up from elsewhere without significant experience of the area. You really need to find someone from the area you're interested in if you want an accurate portrayal, I'm afraid, although books actually written in dialect can help a lot if you can find them.

(Never accuse a person from South Shields of being from Newcastle. You may well fall out. The North of England is a place with a long history, a long memory, and loyalties and rivalries that are more than a thousand years old - and more-or-less completely unknown to those who aren't from the North.)

skylark · Aug 22, 2013

1. Not anyone I know. I've heard of it. I've never read it.

2. Bingo would be the common popular one. It does depend on the people, though. Bridge is popular in certain groups and older women would be one, but maybe not so much on an estate. It's considered a bit "posh".

3. No. There are some sports and music scholarships out there, but it's illegal in the UK for a university to take someone based on who they are - it has to be academic suitability. (And bear in mind that these scholarships might be worth a couple of thousand pounds but it's more likely to be free sports club membership or music lessons. There are no "free rides".) The concept of a "legacy" student who gets special treatment because dad and granddad went there does not exist here. However, some universities do have ancient scholarships which will be given to a suitable student who's got in on their own merit (I know someone who got a Cambridge scholarship which was for sons and daughters of the clergy - but, again, it was a couple of hundred pounds a year. Pin money, not paying for fees.). British university financial help is pretty much excusively based on need, and much of it is at a national rather than university level. Remember that there are almost no private universities in the UK. If you've heard of it, it's public.

4. Many (many many many).

AVS · Aug 22, 2013

Echo the above.

Do you mean Northumberland sayings? Or the whole North of England?

As others have mentioned the North of England is not a generic place. Liverpool, Yorkshire and Newcastle accents (for instance) are completely different to each other.

usuallycountingbats · Aug 22, 2013

I would say bingo is pretty class dependent. So you'd need to be careful that it fits with the background of your characters.

waylander · Aug 22, 2013

By estate I assume you're talking about local authority housing. Is this in Newcastle,in a former mining community or out in the country?

The rural Northumberland dialect is a bit different to Geordie, both can be difficult to understand if you're not used to them.

AVS · Aug 22, 2013

Bingo derail: There's an advert on UK TV for bingo, a couple of women are exercising in front of the TV. The bingo sprite appears; a voice over says "wouldn't you rather be playing xxx bingo". Next thing they give up exercising sit down in front of a computer and proceed presumably to gamble away the family income.

So don't get fit, be a couch potato and gamble the family money away is the message.

Sorry about the derail.

Anninyn · Aug 22, 2013

1 - I assume so. I've seen it sitting in doctors waiting rooms if the doctor is in an affluent area.

2- Bingo, but it's mainly a lower-classes thing. Not sure what the middle-and-upper class women do.

- eeeh, yes and no. There are some, but they aren't very high value. Our university system differs anyway. Financial help is offered based on your financial needs. You don't have to pay back your student loan till you earn above a certain income. This applies to study-at-home places like the OU too.

4- slang varies dramatically not just based on region, but right the way down to microcultures within cities and towns. I'm heading to Northumberland in september so maybe I'll keep an ear out for you

.

Parametric · Aug 22, 2013

When I read a story with a character getting a scholarship to a British university, I assume the author is American. :tongue

Never met anybody who got a scholarship (and I went to some pretty fancy universities).

Torgo · Aug 22, 2013

Parametric said:
When I read a story with a character getting a scholarship to a British university, I assume the author is American. Never met anybody who got a scholarship (and I went to some pretty fancy universities).

Me neither, though when I were a lad universities were free.

waylander · Aug 22, 2013

Parametric said:
When I read a story with a character getting a scholarship to a British university, I assume the author is American. Never met anybody who got a scholarship (and I went to some pretty fancy universities).

A mate of mine won a scholarship to read Physics at Cambridge. The value was all in the title, the actual money was only a couple of hundred pounds.
If the OP is looking for the kind of scholarship that pays a substantial portion of the student's fees then there are very few of them.

onesecondglance · Aug 22, 2013

Not forgetting that fees for overseas students are even higher than those for domestic students. Here's an example list of fees for UCL:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/current-students/money/2012-2013_fees/2012-13_Undergraduate

Remember that's per year - so a (standard) three-year course is going to be about £27k for a UK student and nearly £56k for an overseas student.

A scholarship for over £50k in value is going to be a rare thing.

shaldna · Aug 22, 2013

AHMackenna said:
I'm working on a contemporary novel set on an estate in Northumberland. I lived in London for a couple years, but its amazing how much I've forgotten/never learned. Any help is much appreciated!

1. Does anyone actually read Tatler magazine besides Anglophile tourists and the people in it?

Yes. Loads of people. It's the sort of mag you buy to have sitting on your coffee table. It's popular with the sort of people who like to be seen out and about. Getting a spread of your event or house is a pretty big deal among the set that read it. You see it alot in doctors and dentists surgeries. Mostly it's a mix of 'society' pictures, advertisements for jewellery and surgery, and articles about how slate is the new marble.

2. Is there a game or hobby that is popular with older generations of Brits (mostly women) similar to Bingo or Bunco?

No idea what bunco is, but bingo is really popular here. Not just with the older folk either.

3. Do British universities give random scholarships like American ones do?

No. Students can apply for a means tested student loan and a reduction in fees. You can get studentships for postgrads though, and sponsorship from companies etc can help pay fees. I think the military will pay for university too with certain conditions.

4. Are there any particular phrases or sayings particular to northern England? Do Scottish phrases often creep in close to the border?

Oh pet where to start!

I wrote this a while back:

http://clairewriteswords.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/claires-guide-to-northern-irish/

Oh, and we don't share a land border with scotland.

onesecondglance · Aug 22, 2013

shaldna said:
I wrote this a while back:

http://clairewriteswords.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/claires-guide-to-northern-irish/

Oh, and we don't share a land border with scotland.

Northern Ireland doesn't, but I think the OP said northern England.

M J Austwick · Aug 22, 2013

The kind of person who reads Tatler doesn't play bingo. Bridge perhaps, but not Bingo...

When you say estate do you mean a housing estate, or a private estate? The latter would fit with a Tatler reading, bridge playing person. They wouldn't tend to have much of a regional accent or dialogue though, they'd certainly have a place in London too, and have been educated privately.

mirandashell · Aug 22, 2013

Yeah, I think we need a bit more info. The variations in lifestyle and language between class, location and income are massive.

This should help with the Tatler question:

http://digital-assets.condenast.co.uk.s3.amazonaws.com/static/condenast/Tatler-Mediapack-08-2013.pdf

Go down to the Advertising section. It gives a breakdown of who reads it.

AHMackenna · Aug 22, 2013

You guys are amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

1. The Tatler question involves a sassy working class girl (she cleans house for a wealthy peer) whose life goal is to move up in the world by snagging herself a very wealthy husband, and isn't afraid to admit it. She's a secondary character in my WIP, but I'm playing with giving her a title of her own. She's a wannabe sloane pony (do people even say that anymore?).

2. I was looking for something that an elderly cook would do in her spare time. Bingo sounds perfect.

3. I'm trying to give my American MC an excuse to stay in England after a summer spent visiting family friends. She's destitute, but smart, and her plans for higher education have been derailed by an extreme lack of funds. My ultimate goal is for her to stay in the UK and continue her education, but it sounds like scholarships are not an option. How extensive is the application process for British universities in general? Not Oxbridge -- somewhere like Durham or Northumbria? Would it be possible for an application received to be accepted within a few months? And would she have to apply under a specific college or fellowship program? I'm just going for "it's possible," not common or probable. She's going to end up with some friends in high places, so maybe they can pull some strings for her.

4. The story is entirely set in a very small fictional village in Northumberland, near the sea but not a traditional coastal village (the only coastal villages I've been to are around Truro and Falmouth, so that's what I'm basing "coastal village" on). Everyone knows everyone else, with a population <500. A little way outside of the village is massive estate that belongs to an Earl of the realm, though he and his family have pretty much abandoned it. My MC goes to visit an "aunt," who was once a nanny for the current Earl and has retired to a cottage on the estate.

Dialect-wise, I'm looking for words or phrases that add some color and authenticity -- technically I've driven through Northumberland, but other than a stop for tea I haven't spent any quality time getting to know the area or the people. Again, I want readers to give me a mental nod for an accurate portrayal of side characters, but I don't want anyone who isn't familiar with the area to be confused by words that don't make sense/interrupt the flow of the narrative.

Thank you all so much, again. Just what you've told me so far has helped tremendously!

waylander · Aug 22, 2013

If she is a US citizen without established residency in the UK, then any UK university is going to charge her the going rate for overseas students and that is going to be seriously expensive.

mirandashell · Aug 22, 2013

If you have Google Earth, have a look at Seaham and Ryhope in Northumbria. Is that the kind of area you're thinking of?

ETA: would this help?

http://www.stately-homes.com/north-east/northumberland

Parametric · Aug 22, 2013

AHMackenna said:
How extensive is the application process for British universities in general? Not Oxbridge -- somewhere like Durham or Northumbria? Would it be possible for an application received to be accepted within a few months? And would she have to apply under a specific college or fellowship program? I'm just going for "it's possible," not common or probable. She's going to end up with some friends in high places, so maybe they can pull some strings for her.

The UCAS university application process is pretty simple. You pick a limited number of universities you're interested in, fill in the application form online with your qualifications and a personal statement and references, and send it off. She'd need to specify the courses at particular universities she's interested in (eg apply to do law at Durham). I think you can apply until January and you can get offers from universities as late as May for takeup that September-October.

A lot of universities don't have colleges. Neither of mine did. I did get an offer from Durham, which is a collegiate university, and they assigned me to a college themselves.

If she has friends in high places, could they invent a scholarship for her? Or just give her money to pay the fees herself? You can pay the tuition fees in instalments each term if self-funding I think.

Mr Flibble · Aug 22, 2013

She could perhaps get a job (Nanny? Tutor? Au pair?) with a posh family and do an OU degree, or some sort of education. I know of some people who include this in the job description -- part of the wages as it were. The family gets their kids looked after/tutored, the employee gets somewhere to live/food/fees paid/small allowance (Though I've not seen this with a big Uni or a major degree, normally something part time, or more hands on or short term, like getting a qualification in teaching, or doing evening school A levels etc). But you could mix it up a bit, as long as it's beneficial to both sides

ETA: Ofc for that she'd need a work visa iirc.

M J Austwick · Aug 22, 2013

AHMackenna said:
You guys are amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

1. The Tatler question involves a sassy working class girl (she cleans house for a wealthy peer) whose life goal is to move up in the world by snagging herself a very wealthy husband, and isn't afraid to admit it. She's a secondary character in my WIP, but I'm playing with giving her a title of her own. She's a wannabe sloane pony (do people even say that anymore?).

That works.

2. I was looking for something that an elderly cook would do in her spare time. Bingo sounds perfect.

She may well be into Bingo, but where she'd do it is another question. Perhaps the local village hall?

3. I'm trying to give my American MC an excuse to stay in England after a summer spent visiting family friends. She's destitute, but smart, and her plans for higher education have been derailed by an extreme lack of funds. My ultimate goal is for her to stay in the UK and continue her education, but it sounds like scholarships are not an option. How extensive is the application process for British universities in general? Not Oxbridge -- somewhere like Durham or Northumbria? Would it be possible for an application received to be accepted within a few months? And would she have to apply under a specific college or fellowship program? I'm just going for "it's possible," not common or probable. She's going to end up with some friends in high places, so maybe they can pull some strings for her.

There isn't a process in this country that can't be circumvented by knowing the right people.

Dialect-wise, I'm looking for words or phrases that add some color and authenticity -- technically I've driven through Northumberland, but other than a stop for tea I haven't spent any quality time getting to know the area or the people. Again, I want readers to give me a mental nod for an accurate portrayal of side characters, but I don't want anyone who isn't familiar with the area to be confused by words that don't make sense/interrupt the flow of the narrative.

Thank you all so much, again. Just what you've told me so far has helped tremendously!

YouTube Sarah Millican, you won't go far wrong.

wendymarlowe · Aug 22, 2013

re: the accent/local jargon: I'd look up some real villages/towns near where you're setting your fictional village, then do some searching on YouTube and local news stations to find video of normal people talking. See if there are any bands or comedians from that area, perhaps?

A Few Random British Questions

AHMackenna

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

LilahLangdon

Should probably be writing

ClareGreen

Onwards, ever onwards

skylark

AVS

usuallycountingbats

Procrastinating on the net.

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

AVS

Anninyn

Stealing your twiglets.

Parametric

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

onesecondglance

pretending to be awake

M J Austwick

mirandashell

AHMackenna

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

mirandashell

Parametric

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

M J Austwick

wendymarlowe

writer, mother, geek