Why It's Better to Try for Quantity Instead of Quality

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slhuang

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I thought this was very interesting:

Why Quantity Should be Your Priority: The Key to Higher Quality is Higher Quantity

I think it's a very thought-provoking discussion on why perfectionism can be the enemy of achieving perfection. So to speak. And for me personally, I think this is a good thing to try to internalize ("analysis paralysis"? I've definitely been there).

Okay, now I'm off to write my 500 crappy words for the day.
 

NeuroFizz

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There is a huge difference between striving for excellence and striving for perfection. But mere quantity doesn't guarantee improvement unless one learns from it--in other words, unless one uses it as a tool to strive for excellence.
 

JustSarah

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Like if one actually read those manuscripts and learned from their mistakes.
 

buz

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Yes, all right, slhuang; I'm doing it wrong. I get it. Stop hounding me. Jeez.

:D
 

thothguard51

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Example...

John Norman and his Gor series...quantity at 33 books and it seems he never did learn the quality part...
 

Kerosene

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So... doing a lot of something, experimental practice, and trial and error will bring out quality.

Why couldn't they just say that? Why title it in such a convoluted way that offers no reasonable explanation?
 

Almondjoy

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As others have said, I don't think quantity equates to equality. You have to be constantly working and striving for quality, but yes, that does come with practice, as does everything. But if you just write 5,000 crap words per day without focusing on honing your craft, then how would it possibly help? You'd have to go back, revise, and learn from your mistakes in order for it to be of any help, really.
 

Sai

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True story, overheard at the bookstore I work at:

Guy 1: They say it takes 10,000 hours before you get really good at something.

Guy 2: (chuckles) I'll tell you what I'm really good at...

Guy 2 didn't finish his sentence, but I think Guy 1 (and whoever that quote originates from) is right. It takes a lot of practice to get really good at something. Sure you churn out lots of crap in the meantime, but you can learn from crap. You can't learn from a blank page.

I'm taking part in the Write 1 Sub 1 this year (there's a sub-forum right here on AW!). In it short story writers challenge themselves to write a story either each week or each month (I'm going with the one a month) and submit it. Not all of the stories I've written have been great, but I've learned from each one.

My old high school was recently demolished, but its motto sticks with me: 'We learn to do by doing.' I'm still amazed that when I put in the hours I see marked improvement (not just writing, but also things like drawing and karate). You'd think that I would have learned this back in grade school, but nope, it's just dawning on me now.
 
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True story, overheard at the bookstore I work at:

Guy 1: They say it takes 10,000 hours before you get really good at something.

Guy 2: (chuckles) I'll tell you what I'm really good at...

Guy 2 didn't finish his sentence, but I think Guy 1 (and whoever that quote originates from) is right. It takes a lot of practice to get really good at something. Sure you churn out lots of crap in the meantime, but you can learn from crap. You can't learn from a blank page.

I'm taking part in the Write 1 Sub 1 this year (there's a sub-forum right here on AW!). In it short story writers challenge themselves to write a story either each week or each month (I'm going with the one a month) and submit it. Not all of the stories I've written have been great, but I've learned from each one.

My old high school was recently demolished, but its motto sticks with me: 'We learn to do by doing.' I'm still amazed that when I put in the hours I see marked improvement (not just writing, but also things like drawing and karate). You'd think that I would have learned this back in grade school, but nope, it's just dawning on me now.


Sounds like how I learned to fansub anime. I sat around theorizing for two years, and got nowhere. So I got bored and lied my way into a position, and they really never knew the difference. Even after I parleyed that experience into more positions with well-known groups.


I don't know that you need 10,000 hours to write a publishable story, but writing a lot is the other side of reading a lot.
 

slhuang

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To me the article was a different (and more resonating, for me) way of paralleling the oft-given "just sit down and write" advice. Personally, it's useful for me to remember that practice does lead to improvement (assuming one is learning, etc.), because my natural tendencies are in the "dither until it's perfect" direction. ;) So I need to get told things like this.

And yes, of course doing something badly a zillion times is not a good idea (I had a piano teacher who would say, "Practice doesn't make perfect; practice makes permanent"), but I took the article as assuming some baseline interest in improving . . . and reading it with that assumption it made a lot of sense to me. YMMV . . .
 

nighttimer

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In 1952, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man was published. It was hailed as one of the best books ever written about the Negro search for identity in America. It won the 1953 U.S. National Book Award for Fiction and in 1965 a survey of 200 prominent literary figures was released that proclaimed Invisible Man the most important novel since World War II.

Ellison began work on his second novel in Juneteenth in 1958. When he died in 1994, the book was still not completed with Ellison having written over 2000 pages. The book was issued posthumously in 1999 cut down to 368 pages by an editor friend of Ellison who explained he did so according to how he thought Ellison would have wanted it written.

Ralph Ellison spent nearly 40 years trying to craft the follow-up to his classic debut. Why should he have filled those decades pumping out crap simply to fill space on bookshelves?

One quality book in a lifetime makes up for a quantity of hacked-out shit.
 

NikiK

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And yes, of course doing something badly a zillion times is not a good idea (I had a piano teacher who would say, "Practice doesn't make perfect; practice makes permanent"), but I took the article as assuming some baseline interest in improving . . . and reading it with that assumption it made a lot of sense to me. YMMV . . .

Did you have the same piano teacher as I did? lol She told me if I practiced a piece 100 times and made the same mistake each time, then I'd get really good at playing the piece with that mistake in it. What she preferred I do was practice that piece 100 times without making mistakes and focus on improving my performance.
 

Linda Adams

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In 1952, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man was published. It was hailed as one of the best books ever written about the Negro search for identity in America. It won the 1953 U.S. National Book Award for Fiction and in 1965 a survey of 200 prominent literary figures was released that proclaimed Invisible Man the most important novel since World War II.

Ellison began work on his second novel in Juneteenth in 1958. When he died in 1994, the book was still not completed with Ellison having written over 2000 pages. The book was issued posthumously in 1999 cut down to 368 pages by an editor friend of Ellison who explained he did so according to how he thought Ellison would have wanted it written.

Ralph Ellison spent nearly 40 years trying to craft the follow-up to his classic debut. Why should he have filled those decades pumping out crap simply to fill space on bookshelves?

One quality book in a lifetime makes up for a quantity of hacked-out shit.

But how many more fantastic stories would he have come up with if he hadn't labored over one book for 40 years?
 

Ken

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... wilkie collins was at the opposite end of the spectrum
if I recall correctly. When I read Moonstone there was a list
of books he'd pub'd and there were something like eighty
and that didn't include short stories. Ray Bradbury was
prolific, too, I believe. A lot of that has to do with the writer.
Some can, some can't. So there isn't even so much of a choice
in the matter. Of course one can change their approach. But
only so much. Quality? Hmm. Some writers can write quality
stuff at a rapid rate. So it isn't an either/or either.
 

gothicangel

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There is a huge difference between striving for excellence and striving for perfection. But mere quantity doesn't guarantee improvement unless one learns from it--in other words, unless one uses it as a tool to strive for excellence.

Seconding (or thirding if you will) Neuro. My art teacher always told me that it was a case of quality over quantity. I also have to say, since I started reading the likes of Rosemary Sutcliff, Hilary Mantel and Christian Cameron, I've seen my writing improve ten-fold.
 

shadowwalker

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Practice was never about doing something perfectly over and over; it was making mistakes and going over and over it until you didn't make those same mistakes again.
 

annetookeen

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I'm naturally prolific, especially when I'm on caffeine. What I do is, I go for quantity when I get down to write. Write write write as much as I can. I don't look at what I'm doing.

But then revising is a different matter. That's where I apply quality. Some work, though, I've noticed can't be turned into a gem no matter how much brushing and polishing I do.

Those ones, I submit to markets anyway. You never know, when another eye sees work, it may shine for them even if it doesn't shine for me.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Because it takes someone ten years to write a book does not mean that writer put in one minute more time than someone else who wrote a book in a month. I know one well-known literary write who has made a big deal of publicly saying it takes him five years to write a novel. It doesn't. He does all sorts of other things for four and a half years, and then wrote the book in six months.

The simple fact is that many, many of the best writers in history wrote extremely fast, and were extremely prolific.

I'm not at all sure that practice does make perfect, however. Writing is not like shooting jump shots, or just about any other example given. It sure as heck has nothing to do with ten thousand hours of practice. If it did, about 99% of the famous writers throughout history would still be unknown.

There is no reason at all why you can't have bot quality and quantity. There is no reason at all why you can't write an extremely good first book very fast. Except for a pesky little thing called talent.

Writing very fast does not mean hack work. Only very slow hacks thinks this. Shakespeare certainly wouldn't agree. Neither would any one of a thousand other famous writers.

It does not take twenty years to write a good novel. Or ten years. Or five years. And a novel is no better for taking twenty years than for taking twenty weeks.

A novel is good because the writer has talent, and simply knows how to tell a good story, and fill it with good characters.

The point, I think, should always be to sit down and write. Don't pretend that endlessly tinkering is writing, or that thinking for six months about how to rewrite that scene in chapter twelve is writing. Practice may or may not make perfect, quantity may or may not help because you may or may not have the talent to make it mean anything. But it sure as heck can't hurt, and you'll be doing what everyone else claims to be doing, which is actually writing.
 
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In 1952, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man was published. It was hailed as one of the best books ever written about the Negro search for identity in America. It won the 1953 U.S. National Book Award for Fiction and in 1965 a survey of 200 prominent literary figures was released that proclaimed Invisible Man the most important novel since World War II.

Ellison began work on his second novel in Juneteenth in 1958. When he died in 1994, the book was still not completed with Ellison having written over 2000 pages. The book was issued posthumously in 1999 cut down to 368 pages by an editor friend of Ellison who explained he did so according to how he thought Ellison would have wanted it written.

Ralph Ellison spent nearly 40 years trying to craft the follow-up to his classic debut. Why should he have filled those decades pumping out crap simply to fill space on bookshelves?

One quality book in a lifetime makes up for a quantity of hacked-out shit.


I don't think anyone is pushing for people to publish a whole bunch of stuff that may or may not be of decent quality. They're just saying that you can improve with time.
 

Amadan

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In 1952, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man was published. It was hailed as one of the best books ever written about the Negro search for identity in America. It won the 1953 U.S. National Book Award for Fiction and in 1965 a survey of 200 prominent literary figures was released that proclaimed Invisible Man the most important novel since World War II.

Ellison began work on his second novel in Juneteenth in 1958. When he died in 1994, the book was still not completed with Ellison having written over 2000 pages. The book was issued posthumously in 1999 cut down to 368 pages by an editor friend of Ellison who explained he did so according to how he thought Ellison would have wanted it written.

Ralph Ellison spent nearly 40 years trying to craft the follow-up to his classic debut. Why should he have filled those decades pumping out crap simply to fill space on bookshelves?

One quality book in a lifetime makes up for a quantity of hacked-out shit.

I'm not sure your example illustrates what you want it to. Ellison spent his lifetime in search of perfection, and died with a sprawling unfinished mess.

Sure, his one book left a greater legacy than many authors have left with forty books. But in 40 years, he could surely have produced more than one book that was not crap.
 

DeleyanLee

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Aristotle said, "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

Writing, like anything, is best learned by the doing. However, I think the doing must be mindful of improvement and quality. Repeatedly writing crap will make crap the habit. (Which is why I don't think studying "bad books" is a good idea--study bad writing, one will commit bad writing because that's where the focus has been.)

So, yeah, if you put in 1000 hours of diligent practice aimed at improvement, you will get better. But if you spent 1000 hours just putting out slop, you'll be very good at slop but not likely to be better than you were when you started (maybe even worse).
 

Phaeal

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For me, this translates not so much into quantity per se, as into: First get it all down, then get it all right.
 

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I've heard the value of art explained this way. Harper Lee, as you know, wrote only one book. She's in her nineties now so it's unlikely we'll get more out of her, but suppose Dan Brown lives as long as her and manages to write, say, a thousand books. If Harper Lee's one book is better than each of Dan Brown's one thousand, then Harper Lee has produced more art.
 
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I've heard the value of art explained this way. Harper Lee, as you know, wrote only one book. She's in her nineties now so it's unlikely we'll get more out of her, but suppose Dan Brown lives as long as her and manages to write, say, a thousand books. If Harper Lee's one book is better than each of Dan Brown's one thousand, then Harper Lee has produced more art.


But what if it's only better than 900 of them?
 
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