Small town hospital forensics.

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LeFevre

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In a small town (pop. 5000-7000) that has been mostly cut off from the world by natural disaster, a killing spree occurs.

I have competent doctors, but I do not know what facilities and abilities a small town hospital would have for solving crimes and cause of death.

My assumptions:
1. DNA analysis is beyond the scope. DNA samples would need to be sent off to a lab elsewhere.

2. The hospital would have a morgue, but I don't know the capacity of the morgue, or what the room might look like. Would there be examination tables?

3. Blood typing would likely be the most they could do with blood work, and that would be only minimally conclusive in identifying the individual whose blood is being tested.

I'm not so much worried about the crime scene. I just really want to know what kind of information the police could get on who the killers and victims are within say...24 hours, if the town were isolated and no samples could be sent out and no experts brought in. Phone communication is sporadic.
 

blacbird

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Where, today, in any American small town is phone communication "sporadic"? Everybody has a cell phone, and you have to go deeply out of your way to get to a place cell phone service isn't available. I live in the single state with the most remote regions (Alaska) and you'd be surprised at how many out-of-the-way places have cell service. I grew up an a small town in the Midwest more than 50 years ago, and even then, phone communication was a normal and expected service.

caw
 

cornflake

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In a small town (pop. 5000-7000) that has been mostly cut off from the world by natural disaster, a killing spree occurs.

I have competent doctors, but I do not know what facilities and abilities a small town hospital would have for solving crimes and cause of death.

My assumptions:
1. DNA analysis is beyond the scope. DNA samples would need to be sent off to a lab elsewhere.

2. The hospital would have a morgue, but I don't know the capacity of the morgue, or what the room might look like. Would there be examination tables?

3. Blood typing would likely be the most they could do with blood work, and that would be only minimally conclusive in identifying the individual whose blood is being tested.

I'm not so much worried about the crime scene. I just really want to know what kind of information the police could get on who the killers and victims are within say...24 hours, if the town were isolated and no samples could be sent out and no experts brought in. Phone communication is sporadic.

Many crimes are not solved (and many don't even involve) forensic science of the type you're discussing. It depends on the scene and what happened as to what cops would want, need, or do. Blood typing isn't conclusive at all - what would that get you? It's not meaningful legally, in any way, and no cop would think it meant anything. It's like 1/6 people or what have you.

A morgue should have examination tables, yes. You need a medical examiner/coroner to make use of them though.
 

GingerGunlock

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In a small town (pop. 5000-7000) that has been mostly cut off from the world by natural disaster, a killing spree occurs.

/snip

I'm not so much worried about the crime scene. I just really want to know what kind of information the police could get on who the killers and victims are within say...24 hours, if the town were isolated and no samples could be sent out and no experts brought in. Phone communication is sporadic.


Even without a lot of fancy-schmancy equipment, police can get ballpark ideas about killers and victims within 24 hours. Since you say "killing spree", I assume you mean through violence as opposed to something more subtle like poisoning (but you know what happens when you assume...)?

Are the victims local? Is the perpetrator?

Cell towers can be iffy, even in these modern times, but landlines are typically solid, so I'm also assuming that the sporadic phone communication is due to the natural disaster?
 

WeaselFire

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I just really want to know what kind of information the police could get on who the killers and victims are within say...24 hours, if the town were isolated and no samples could be sent out and no experts brought in. Phone communication is sporadic.
It's a small town. The cops know the players. The neighbors know everything. I grew up in a town of about 4,000 and everybody knew everyone and what they were doing. The one man police force (two during the summer tourist season) solved every single crime by going down to the bar and finding Willy, then making him give the stuff back, fix what he broke or work off his payment for damages.

DNA is used for every crime on TV and in the movies. It's used for about 2% of crimes in real life.

The flip side of this is that 90% of medical forensics requires a scalpel and a microscope. The high school biology classroom is equipped to handle it.

Jeff
 

jclarkdawe

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In a small town (pop. 5000-7000) that has been mostly cut off from the world by natural disaster, a killing spree occurs. In normal times, autopsies for crimes in a community this small would be sent out.

I have competent doctors, but I do not know what facilities and abilities a small town hospital would have for solving crimes and cause of death. Any doctor can do an autopsy, but its like a general practice doctor can do heart surgery. Medical examiners are a specialty, and there's a lot of reasons for that. However, most trauma type cases are rather easy to determine the cause of death. For example, a simple (and primitive) method for tracking a bullet through the body is a wire.

My assumptions:
1. DNA analysis is beyond the scope. DNA samples would need to be sent off to a lab elsewhere. DNA for most states is send it out. Not unusual.

2. The hospital would have a morgue, but I don't know the capacity of the morgue, or what the room might look like. Would there be examination tables? Mostly this would be for the doctors to practice and/or check cause of death on one of their patients. Five to ten body spaces, and one autopsy table. An autopsy table is stainless steel, with a trough around the outer edge, connected to a drain. It would be a relatively small room, as all it's for is temporary storage of bodies who die in the hospital and occasional autopsies.

3. Blood typing would likely be the most they could do with blood work, and that would be only minimally conclusive in identifying the individual whose blood is being tested. They can run a blood chemistry and some tox screens. Blood (other then DNA -- think weeks) doesn't help in identification. Blood type can confirm a person's ID. Depending upon cause of death, blood can provide confirmation.

I'm not so much worried about the crime scene. I just really want to know what kind of information the police could get on who the killers and victims are within say...24 hours, if the town were isolated and no samples could be sent out and no experts brought in. Phone communication is sporadic. What do you want to get? Without knowing a lot more, I can't tell you whether you can get from here to there.

You need to give a lot more information on what you're hoping the autopsy to show. Most likely the doctors are going to be tied up in treating patients, and autopsies are going to be on the bottom of the list of things to do. I can't really think of anything an autopsy in this situation is going to help you with.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

LeFevre

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Okay.
Situation. A small town is involved in a heavy snow, subzero, high wind, blizzard situation that last for days in an area where that does not normally happen. A large volcanic eruption elsewhere in the world has caused the change in weather. The high winds and remarkable amount of snow is causing lines to be down and the cell towers to mess up. The cells went down first, the electricity held out until the buildup to the climax when the storm picks up and lines start going down. So far the land lines are working, but I would like to knock those out too. Roads are closed, town is shut down.

The killings: supernatural
Children and women are disappearing. gone without a trace except for occasional footprints in the snow that don't go very far before the snow has covered them up again, and the county sheriff is trying to find out what's going on.

One afternoon, a woman is found dead, hanging from a sculpture on the courthouse lawn. Her insides are frozen...down there...from an icy cold rape. Law enforcement finds this peculiar. Later that night, a young man wakes up in his pickup truck with it running and nosed up against his parents' house. the inside of the windows, the outsides of the windows, and his face and hands are covered with blood. He goes inside and finds his parents murdered, and his live in girlfriend, who was staying with them, missing.

The sheriff has reason to believe that this young man did not commit the murders, but he looks pretty guilty. The young man has lost a block of time, so he is not sure himself if he committed the murders. He has no alibi, and the sheriff thinks he knows what's really going on, but he needs the young man to help him defeat the supernatural element. So, it would be really great if he could figure out whose blood is in the pickup truck, who raped the girl at the courthouse, or at least prove that the young man did not do it. Things are getting worse and there is no time to waste.

So, I have a doctor in the morgue, and he has all three bodies. Cause of death is not an issue on the bodies, but the anomoly of her frozen lower organs requires some attention. When she thaws, it is obvious from some serious trauma that she was sexually assaulted. Both the city and county police want answers and keep bringing in blood samples and things to this poor doctor that got stuck with all this.

The story takes place in Texas. In Texas, except for in large cities, the Justice of the Peace serves as the coroner, and I don't believe that comes with any medical examiner training. He or she only declares someone dead, and outsources things like autopsies.
 

cornflake

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Okay.
Situation. A small town is involved in a heavy snow, subzero, high wind, blizzard situation that last for days in an area where that does not normally happen. A large volcanic eruption elsewhere in the world has caused the change in weather. The high winds and remarkable amount of snow is causing lines to be down and the cell towers to mess up. The cells went down first, the electricity held out until the buildup to the climax when the storm picks up and lines start going down. So far the land lines are working, but I would like to knock those out too. Roads are closed, town is shut down.

The killings: supernatural
Children and women are disappearing. gone without a trace except for occasional footprints in the snow that don't go very far before the snow has covered them up again, and the county sheriff is trying to find out what's going on.

One afternoon, a woman is found dead, hanging from a sculpture on the courthouse lawn. Her insides are frozen...down there...from an icy cold rape. Law enforcement finds this peculiar. Later that night, a young man wakes up in his pickup truck with it running and nosed up against his parents' house. the inside of the windows, the outsides of the windows, and his face and hands are covered with blood. He goes inside and finds his parents murdered, and his live in girlfriend, who was staying with them, missing.

The sheriff has reason to believe that this young man did not commit the murders, but he looks pretty guilty. The young man has lost a block of time, so he is not sure himself if he committed the murders. He has no alibi, and the sheriff thinks he knows what's really going on, but he needs the young man to help him defeat the supernatural element. So, it would be really great if he could figure out whose blood is in the pickup truck, who raped the girl at the courthouse, or at least prove that the young man did not do it. Things are getting worse and there is no time to waste.

So, I have a doctor in the morgue, and he has all three bodies. Cause of death is not an issue on the bodies, but the anomoly of her frozen lower organs requires some attention. When she thaws, it is obvious from some serious trauma that she was sexually assaulted. Both the city and county police want answers and keep bringing in blood samples and things to this poor doctor that got stuck with all this.

The story takes place in Texas. In Texas, except for in large cities, the Justice of the Peace serves as the coroner, and I don't believe that comes with any medical examiner training. He or she only declares someone dead, and outsources things like autopsies.

Did you just really say "down there?"

I sort of can't believe that's true in Texas and sort of can.

I don't get a lot of this - is it below zero out or not? If it is, what's with the guy in the truck? Why is only part of a body hanging out of doors frozen and what organs are frozen from an 'icy cold rape' and how would one tell the difference?

Why are the cops bringing stuff to a dr. who isn't an me or a coroner? What good will any of this do in the long run? I thought this was a post-apocalyptic scenario, in which there wasn't the expectation of resumption of normal society. Here it seems there is, so why not just go cast whatever is in the snow and try to figure out why the sheriff thinks the blood-covered family member who is mysteriously unfrozen didn't kill everyone in his house.

If the blood on him and in the truck doesn't belong to the people in the house, that'd help I suppose, but that'd likely be more than typing, unless it's a really lucky bounce.

As to finding out who raped the woman, that's a whole other kettle of fish and depends on a lot. Mostly, you have a suspect to eliminate or a pool to run against, if you're trying to find that out based on forensic science. I'd think regular police work would be more likely as a solution.

However, the some people are partially frozen but some aren't at all is your larger problem, if I'm reading this correctly.
 

jclarkdawe

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Okay.
Situation. A small town is involved in a heavy snow, subzero, high wind, blizzard situation that last for days in an area where that does not normally happen. A large volcanic eruption elsewhere in the world has caused the change in weather. The high winds and remarkable amount of snow is causing lines to be down and the cell towers to mess up. The cells went down first, the electricity held out until the buildup to the climax when the storm picks up and lines start going down. So far the land lines are working, but I would like to knock those out too. Roads are closed, town is shut down.

I've lived with snow and ice storms all my life. Amount of times the land lines are down from weather is countable on one hand. It just doesn't happen, other then in very isolated areas. And this is during blackouts involving over a hundred thousand households.

Two feet of snow and you put a bulldozer and plow through it. Anything less and I can often get through it with a full-size truck like a fire engine. Snow is a major obstacle, but something like a Humvee can handle a lot of snow.

The killings: supernatural
Children and women are disappearing. gone without a trace except for occasional footprints in the snow that don't go very far before the snow has covered them up again, and the county sheriff is trying to find out what's going on. Eh, lack of experience maybe, but big objects leave a lot of tracking information even in snow.

One afternoon, a woman is found dead, hanging from a sculpture on the courthouse lawn. Her insides are frozen...down there...from an icy cold rape. Law enforcement finds this peculiar. Which means what? Her hoo-haa is frozen solid and the rest of her isn't? You stick an icicle into her hoo-haa and you're good to go. If she's outside and weather is below freezing, good chance of this perversion happening. It's not unknown for rapist/murderers to leave objects in their victim, sometimes in the natural holes, sometimes making their own. It's noted to determine whether there are similar cases. An icicle, and the resulting melt, would provide a significant degradation to the scene.

But this is where a cop's head is going to go, because it's not unheard of. It's not going to go to the supernatural.

Later that night, a young man wakes up in his pickup truck with it running and nosed up against his parents' house. the inside of the windows, the outsides of the windows, and his face and hands are covered with blood. He goes inside and finds his parents murdered, and his live in girlfriend, who was staying with them, missing. Snowstorm and engine running and blocked exhaust is a real probability. Lucky the guy survived. Frozen blood is going to have a lot of degradation.

The sheriff has reason to believe that this young man did not commit the murders, but he looks pretty guilty. From what you're presenting??? I don't think so.

The young man has lost a block of time, so he is not sure himself if he committed the murders. He has no alibi, and the sheriff thinks he knows what's really going on, but he needs the young man to help him defeat the supernatural element. So, it would be really great if he could figure out whose blood is in the pickup truck, who raped the girl at the courthouse, or at least prove that the young man did not do it. Things are getting worse and there is no time to waste. Okay, frozen semen could give you blood type and that would include/exclude certain individuals. Blood typing would be within the capability of a smaller lab. Frozen blood tends to be a bit iffy. Understand this is going to give you large groups of suspects, like whether the suspect is right or left handed.

So, I have a doctor in the morgue, and he has all three bodies. Cause of death is not an issue on the bodies, but the anomoly of her frozen lower organs requires some attention. All a medical examiner can do is tell you that the hoo-haa was frozen, and the depth of the freezing. A medical examiner can't tell what caused the freezing, unless something is left behind. Cause of death will be vital at any future trial.

When she thaws, it is obvious from some serious trauma that she was sexually assaulted. It's going to be internal and involve abrasions and ripping. Otherwise, it can be seen at the scene.

Both the city and county police want answers and keep bringing in blood samples and things to this poor doctor that got stuck with all this. And the doctor would dump it on a lab tech, who can do this faster and better.

The story takes place in Texas. In Texas, except for in large cities, the Justice of the Peace serves as the coroner, and I don't believe that comes with any medical examiner training. He or she only declares someone dead, and outsources things like autopsies. And Texas has a county-wide medical examiner who actually does the autopsies. The medical examiner may do multiple counties. Coroner does not matter for forensic medicine.

I know that TV likes to show how the lab/medical examiner do a lot of work in solving the case. Balls. DNA takes days to run, and an autopsy is a recording of the factual condition of a body. It may include/exclude a subject, but it cannot tell you that the left-handed suspect who is 6 feet tall who is in custody is the same left-handed individual who was 6 feet tall who hit the victim with a baseball bat. It may exclude the right-handed 5 foot tall suspect.

Understand that DNA does not specifically identify someone. It does tell you the probability, but even if the probability is one in ten million, that still includes a large group of people (easily over a thousand) who could be included.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

jclarkdawe

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Nevermind.

There's a reason why the buried in snow stories are set in the Rocky Mountains. Narrow valley, lots of snow, no place for it to go, and you've got problems. Most of Texas? Not much a problem. Among other things, it blows around a lot and has some place to go.

There's a reason why the "retired expert" from New York City shows up in these situations.

There's a reason why telling your girl she's one in a million isn't as nice as you thought. If I'm doing my math right (it's early), if your girl is one in a million, then there are over 7,000 girls just like her (based on current world population). But how can you use this in a story?

It's well known among people who deal with rapists/murderers that sticking things in holes is a common perversion. Vegetables are a common source. Again, how can you use the fact that a police officer is going to think icicle to make your story work?

Authors need to make the real world into their fantasy world, and do it in a way their reader can't figure out where the line is. For example, how about the expert in turkeys who is sequencing their DNA and has all the fancy machines in his basement? (There actually is such a person, although I think his equipment is in a University lab.)

Your job as a writer is to make me believe. To make me believe, you've got to know reality. And then take reality, churn it up, spit it out, and make me believe your story.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ironmikezero

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FWIW, the fastest turnaround for DNA analysis I know of was about ten days - and that was a major case with a lot of pressure. The good news was that it was the conclusive evidence we needed; the offender pled to the bulk of the indictment.
 

jclarkdawe

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Ten days is pretty good. I remember when a rush job was six weeks.

But here's the thing with something like DNA sequencing. How many people know about nano-sequencing? Heliscope single molecule sequencing? There's a lot of stuff you can do with DNA to present a credible idea that someone has developed a technique that you can do DNA sequencing in 24 hours. Or even less. But you'd better understand DNA, and DNA sequencing (I don't), and know what you're working with. And computers. Because I'm guessing you'd need something like a CRAY to run this on.

Or you can do what TV and movies do and fake it.

I had a client charged with stealing a car. Police had a good case, but took the rear view mirror for prints and sent it off to the state lab. Got a deal for the kid of time served (three months) and plead him out. Two months later, the state lab reported that his fingerprints were on the mirror. That's more the reality then a ten day DNA test. (There's a reason Mike remembers that.) (I remember the kid because of the prosecutor's long and urbane profanity about the state lab. Five minutes, three languages, and nothing repeated. Impressive.)

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

ironmikezero

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You're right, Jim... The pressure was intense. That was the fastest turnaround I ever knew of; after that case was over normal reality set in. Inevitably, we came to expect the usual 2+ months for results. It got a little better by the time I retired; 5-6 weeks was considered outstanding (and admittedly rare).

No one's mentioned the cost for such analysis - it ain't cheap. Put a rush on it and the meter spins up.
 

LeFevre

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I am confident that the story is believable. I'm not putting 75k words up here to make you believe. I did not ask for comment on the plausibility of my story, and I'm not going to outline the whole thing so that you all can understand. I asked a very specific question, and I think most of you tried to answer it. However, I feel like the tearing apart of my scenario unnecessarily is unacceptable. I read all over this site that it was about respect...I have seen very little of it in my first week here. I lived in Texas for my first 26 years, and I have lived in the upper midwest for the 15 years since. I have seen blizzards that really eff stuff up. I have seen in Texas that two inches of snow SHUTS DOWN EVERYTHING because there is not equipment to deal with snow removal, nor is the infrastructure equipped for it. A Minnesota Blizzard that lasted for a week in Texas would shut down a town, keeping roads open would be next to impossible and resources would be concentrated on major highways.

Sticking an icicle inside a woman WILL NOT freeze her organs. Where the hell did that come from? I clearly stated that something supernatural happened, and there would be no assumption that would explain why she is frozen. I don't need the examiner to figure that out because it is unexplainable in the world we know.

All I asked is what a small town hospital could do to identify or clear a suspect, and what a small town hospital might have for facilities. There are answers to that sprinkled within these posts that are more concerned with showing you already know my story. You don't.

The very nature of a supernatural story is that all bets are off. I wanted the hospital setting to be realistic. I don't necessarily need my supernatural elements to fall within the range of the natural. It's what supernatural means. It ups the stakes.

I feel like asking for advice here was a mistake. Thank you for the few of you who did answer respectfully.

For the rest of you, I'm glad you live in a world where nothing shuts down and the phones always work. I don't live in that world. In times of blizzard and high winds I have to sit in the dark sometimes until the power company can get things going again. My phones go out sometimes for no reason, or because of an auto accident, or a hundred other reasons.

This thread is over, I can find the info myself. Sorry, my snapshot of the story didn't answer all your questions that you were more worried about than just answering mine.
 

Cath

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Um, LeFevre, I think you're reading something that isn't there. Take a deep breath and step back for a bit, k?

You can start a thread but like any conversation, it can move away from your original question and onto a wider discussion. We don't discourage this because it might be helpful to folks other than you.

If you have a problem with any individual posts, click that little red triangle - that allows you to report the post to the forum mod.

I'm closing this.
 
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