How reliant are you on critiques? Can you be too dependent?

Beats me. I haven't allowed anyone other than working editors to critique one of my stories in thirty-two years. Who better to critique your story than an editor who can actually pay you for it?

Nothing wrong with critiques - its the way they are received that can cause difficulty.

I believe the problems start if one believes that everything that all critters say is right, because that means ending up 'writing by committee' and trying to please everybody - and that can't be done.

That, to my mind, is being too dependent upon critiques.

Critiques should be taken as the opinion of a single critter and - before any action is taken - comments should be balanced, considered and judged with one's own experience.

If one's experience level is low- yes -it may cause what I touched upon above, but that's one reason why critiques are usually best not sought until after a work is finished, and one has presumably gained at least some experience and knowledge of the craft.

All critters may be good readers but not all readers are good critters.

Once the readers have said, "this doesn't work", it's too late. You can use their comments to write a better next book, but you've already lost their respect on the book they're commenting upon.

Critiques are for when you need want to see into your own blind spots. If you're happy with your writing, then you don't need a critique (nor will a critique do any good, if you're not ready to hear it.)

Bufty said:

Critiques should be taken as the opinion of a single critter and - before any action is taken - comments should be balanced, considered and judged with one's own experience.

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This. I'm amazed at how many times I see people rushing to rewrite after a single critique in the SYW forums here.

Critiquing for content and style is extremely subjective, and I rarely change things in my workshopped pieces unless there's a strong majority that has a problem with something. Sitting at a table with 5 or 6 peers discussing your piece can really highlight your flaws when you're still too close to the work, and it's a process every writer should experience at least once or twice if they plan to put their book out to the reading public.

I don't solicit critiques here (and won't) because I see very little top level feedback, and far too much line by line stylistic editing. I think that's dangerous, especially for newer writers still getting a feel for the flow of good prose.

If you have a critique circle that works for you, there's nothing wrong with running your work through trusted filters.

As said above,

Bufty said:

I believe the problems start if one believes that everything that all critters say is right, because that means ending up 'writing by committee' and trying to please everybody - and that can't be done.

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I do think that over time it's wise to start trusting in your own ability to write decent sentences, and to seek only structural feedback. Does the plot make sense? Are the characters un/likeable? Are there loose ends that didn't get resolved? Etc.

A critique is one voice in a discussion. You should listen to it and then if you don't feel it will help you, let it go.


Mark, I think you see a lot of line-by-line because many of the pieces posted are difficult to give top-level feedback on because they lack context. Do you see the stylistic thing mostly with short stories or novel excerpts?

I try to see if people are saying the same thing over and over again--e.g. 'doesn't make sense,' 'this sentence is a black hole of despair,' etc. One person saying something doesn't work might be an outlier. But always pay attention when people start pointing at the same stuff.


One critique I received way back when was a line by line nine force gale that tore my style to shreds. It took me two comments to realize that person felt about me the way I feel about James Joyce, and I tossed it and never looked back. Always disregard anything that tries to take you in a direction you're not interested in going.*



*But that doesn't mean disregard anything you don't like!

I like getting critiques because I know I have issues I tend to overlook. Also, a fresh pair of eyes can catch places that make sense to me because I *know* what I meant to convey but that to an outsider is unclear.

That said, I have also found I get more overall improvement in my writing from *giving* critiques than I do from *getting* them.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Mark, I think you see a lot of line-by-line because many of the pieces posted are difficult to give top-level feedback on because they lack context. Do you see the stylistic thing mostly with short stories or novel excerpts?

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Yeah, the lack of context makes it difficult to give the sort of feedback I think is valuable, but even on complete short stories there is more of a focus on fixing sentences over the general flow and effect. I don't read all the SYW forums, and some may be better for this than others, but it's also a byproduct of the venue and the forum rules. Beginners are discouraged from posting too many words at once, so they just drop a single scene out of context and run the risk of thinking that if they fix each scene sentence by sentence, the whole piece will be stronger.

It's great if people are specifically looking to improve their prose, but it can be detrimental if they're looking to improve an overall work.

Critique is a delicate and dangerous game. All involved parties need to know what the expectations are, and I don't think that's always the case here.

I think new writers have more trouble discerning which critiques to listen to and which ones just don't fit. Critiques can be great but you have to have enough confidence in your story not to flounder - note, that's "confidence", not blind ego.

MarkBern said:

Yeah, the lack of context makes it difficult to give the sort of feedback I think is valuable, but even on complete short stories there is more of a focus on fixing sentences over the general flow and effect. I don't read all the SYW forums, and some may be better for this than others, but it's also a byproduct of the venue and the forum rules. Beginners are discouraged from posting too many words at once, so they just drop a single scene out of context and run the risk of thinking that if they fix each scene sentence by sentence, the whole piece will be stronger.

It's great if people are specifically looking to improve their prose, but it can be detrimental if they're looking to improve an overall work.

Critique is a delicate and dangerous game. All involved parties need to know what the expectations are, and I don't think that's always the case here.

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I definitely understand what you're saying. I totally agree that you can polish your prose 'til it shines, but a turd will still be a turd.


How commonly do people leave a critique note at the top of their work? Because if people are clear about what they want and they still aren't getting it, that's a bigger problem than just people need to explain better what they're looking for in a critique.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

I definitely understand what you're saying. I totally agree that you can polish your prose 'til it shines, but a turd will still be a turd.

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Or to put it more delicately, there's no point in killing yourself to polish a paragraph or scene that really just needs to be cut.

How commonly do people leave a critique note at the top of their work? Because if people are clear about what they want and they still aren't getting it, that's a bigger problem than just people need to explain better what they're looking for in a critique.

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This is a really big part of the issue. People are posting work for feedback without even knowing what stage they're at or what they're looking for (not always true of course). Someone recently posted an excerpt from a complete novel with no introduction or context. I critiqued it as a completed short and had to change some of my feedback after learning that it was just a first chapter. It wasn't a big deal at all, but it is a good example of expectations not being properly set, and it wasn't an isolated incident. I've seen the same thing from several other people in the last couple of weeks I've been here browsing the SYW areas.

MarkBern said:

Or to put it more delicately, there's no point in killing yourself to polish a paragraph or scene that really just needs to be cut.

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I admit I'm old and jaded. That's certainly a clearer way to put it for people new to critiquing.

This is a really big part of the issue. People are posting work for feedback without even knowing what stage they're at or what they're looking for (not always true of course). Someone recently posted an excerpt from a complete novel with no introduction or context. I critiqued it as a completed short and had to change some of my feedback after learning that it was just a first chapter. It wasn't a big deal at all, but it is a good example of expectations not being properly set, and it wasn't an isolated incident. I've seen the same thing from several other people in the last couple of weeks I've been here browsing the SYW areas.

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I've been mostly in the Poetry, SFF, and LitFic sections of SYW. Most people there at least attempt to leave a crit note, but not all that do are successful or know what they want.


I think part of it is people new to writing and critique, but part of it is just not thinking or laziness. Unfortunately, I can't see a way to really regulate that.

I wish there was, though.

annetookeen said:

I've found online critique groups to be extremely helpful. I take what I need, but I've started to wonder if one can rely too much on critiques. They say readers have the last say. They're the audience, after all. So if they say "this doesn't work", shouldn't the writer listen?

A

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I think if the critters all have the same complaint then one had better sit up and take notice. Critiques cannot help but be based on personal preference so you're going to make yourself crazy if you try to keep everyone happy. It's the old 'too many cooks' dilemma but if you are discerning in what you accept and what you don't then you should be okay.

There's a lot in this post.

annetookeen said:

I've found online critique groups to be extremely helpful. I take what I need, but I've started to wonder if one can rely too much on critiques. It depends on what you mean by "rely." I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a second (or third) opinion on your writing. But if you're in a never-ending editing cycle, or if you don't like your own writing anymore, that might be "too much." They say readers have the last say. Readers are not critiquers, at least not strictly as we are discussing them here. At the editing/rewriting/critiquing stage the writer has the last say. It's their work, they can do whatever they want. After the work is published though, I agree the readers will have the last say and the author should stay out of it. (See: Author's Big Mistake) They're the audience, after all. So if they say "this doesn't work", shouldn't the writer listen? Depends.

A

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I think the difficult writers most critters are most familiar with are the ones who argue about their critiques and don't want to change anything (which makes me wonder why they ask for a critique in the first place).

But on the opposite end are the writers who try to do everything the critters say, even the critters who contradict the other critters. They are trying to please everyone and that's impossible. If this is what you mean by too "reliant" or "too dependent" then yes, I agree it happens.

From a critter's POV, I find the best writers to critique are the ones who are more mature in their writing. This doesn't mean they have to be "good." But they know their own strengths and weakness. They know what the "rules" are and when they can be broken. They know what advice works best for them and what can be ignored. And when a critter says "this doesn't work," they know they can ask why.

Other than my wife doing some critical reading after I'm done, I've never used anybody for critiques.

... ultimately, it depends on what you get out of critiques.
If they're helpful and make your stuff better then there's
no reason to curtail them. The contrary if they don't, or if
they send you off on wild goose chases. It's something
every writer has to decide for themselves, via trial and
error more often than not.

I'm not reliant on critiques at all because I've found that critiques often focus on style rather than technique. There's a difference. Technique is about the use of purple prose, overuse of adjectives, the use of passive voice. Style is about critiquing someone's artistic choices in a text. I find that people who have critiqued my texts focus on style, rather than technique.

I could probably be described as "too reliant on feedback" but for me that means I stop writing if no one responds to the parts I've already put up for critique. I don't actually think this is something wrong with me - it's completely natural for humans to want reassurance that they are doing well, and for entertainers in particular to want reassurance that they are doing something that catches others' interest. But I do wonder if I'm doing something wrong in the way I go looking for feedback, because my rate of getting no response at all is distressingly high.

williemeikle said:

Other than my wife doing some critical reading after I'm done, I've never used anybody for critiques.

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My son fills that role for me. He reads widely and is perfect for what I need.

Maxinquaye said:

I'm not reliant on critiques at all because I've found that critiques often focus on style rather than technique. There's a difference. Technique is about the use of purple prose, overuse of adjectives, the use of passive voice. Style is about critiquing someone's artistic choices in a text. I find that people who have critiqued my texts focus on style, rather than technique.

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But where do we draw the line between style and technique?

annetookeen said:

If you get few/no responses here, there are other critter groups online that you can try. I think no response could just mean any number of things, like no one's online, people are lazy today, etc. So there's no need to read too much into it.

Critique is important for me because I'm a second language speaker. I tend to use idioms wrong and words that look right in the dictionary, but wrong in context. Hehe

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When I personally look for feedback, it's not usually on pages of fiction, so it's kind of out of scope for this site. What I need feedback on is either a non-fiction essay or guide, or a description of a concept for a video game, graphic novel, or novel. It has frustrated me for years that there isn't an officially correct subforum here to post story concepts, outlines, or other prewriting materials.

Here's an example of a non-fiction piece: I wrote a step-by-step guide that a beginner who wants to design a video game can follow to develop their seed of an idea into a game design document. Here's a link to one of the multiple places I posted it; theoretically it should be viewable and available to comment on even to people who aren't members and can't log in.
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resourc...ame-concept-by-making-a-design-document-r3004
I got plenty of likes, upvotes, and a few short comments that said "This looks helpful!" or something along those lines, but no feedback with any actual content. I know it has typos in it - I just found one today. There are so many sections to it that it would defy all probability for no readers to have been confused by any of them. But no one asked any questions, or even disagreed with anything I said. >.<

sunandshadow said:

When I personally look for feedback, it's not usually on pages of fiction, so it's kind of out of scope for this site. What I need feedback on is either a non-fiction essay or guide, or a description of a concept for a video game, graphic novel, or novel. It has frustrated me for years that there isn't an officially correct subforum here to post story concepts, outlines, or other prewriting materials.

Here's an example of a non-fiction piece: I wrote a step-by-step guide that a beginner who wants to design a video game can follow to develop their seed of an idea into a game design document. Here's a link to one of the multiple places I posted it; theoretically it should be viewable and available to comment on even to people who aren't members and can't log in.
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resourc...ame-concept-by-making-a-design-document-r3004
I got plenty of likes, upvotes, and a few short comments that said "This looks helpful!" or something along those lines, but no feedback with any actual content. I know it has typos in it - I just found one today. There are so many sections to it that it would defy all probability for no readers to have been confused by any of them. But no one asked any questions, or even disagreed with anything I said. >.<

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Possibly because they don't feel they have the authority to comment on that stuff?

annetookeen said:

... I've started to wonder if one can rely too much on critiques.

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I listen to those I respect, disregard the rest and fix the problems. I don't look for second critiques on work, that's for agents, editors and publishers.

Jeff