Condoms and cannons

Marian Perera · Aug 3, 2013

Hey guys. Two questions relating to the WIP, hope you can help.

1. Lambskin condoms. I was wondering what these were like and looked them up on Amazon, where there's apparently some disagreement about the smell. One reviewer said they smelled like fish food but another person said they smelled pleasant and woodsy. Now for the purposes of the sex scene I'd obviously prefer pleasant and woodsy.

But if anyone can confirm the smell one way or another I'd appreciate it.

Also, they're apparently naturally moist. Can anyone confirm that too?

2. Cannons.

I have a scene where there's a cannon on the deck of a ship. The deck is tilting down because the ship is being attacked by a kraken that's wrapped its tentacles around a gunwale. The cannon is lashed to the deck, but it's pointing in the kraken's direction. Is there a chance that the cannonball will roll completely out of the cannon's bore and down the deck before the crew can fire?

Thanks in advance for your help!

ULTRAGOTHA · Aug 3, 2013

The cannon is lashed to the deck, the deck is tilting with that side of the deck down towards the kraken? In other words, if the cannon is on the starboard side of the ship, then the kraken is pulling the starboard side closer to the water and the port side is further up in the air? Is that right?

If the cannon are lashed down they probably wouldn't have cannon balls in them to begin with as the crew wouldn't put any powder or shot in while they're not in use and cannon are usually only lashed down when they're not in use. (They need to recoil when they are in use.) If the crew is preparing for firing, then they've probably already cast loose.

If they've cast loose, did they do it on both sides of the ship, or is the Kraken only on one side? (If they've cast loose on both sides and the ship is tilting that much, you may have loose cannon from the upper side of the ship, and all the loose cannon balls, gun equipment, gun crews, cartridges, etc. sliding downwards also. Source of loose cannon balls, voila!)

If the crew managed to get the cannon cast loose, the cartridges, wad and shot into a cannon, then the deck tilts downwards, its certainly possible for the cannon ball to roll out the mouth of the cannon. But in that case, it's very likely to roll out into the sea as the gun itself would roll towards the gun port and the barrel would be out the side of the ship.

Or the loader could just drop a cannonball and it would roll down the deck and either out the gun port or hit the inside of the hull and roll around some more.

thothguard51 · Aug 3, 2013

Depending on era, many cannons used packing material to keep the cannon balls from rolling out of the barrel or becoming loose in the barrel and thus decreasing the effect of the shot.

ULTRAGOTHA · Aug 3, 2013

And yes, I meant to ask Who, What, Where, When and Why about the sorts of ships you were using; but my cursor deleted that without my permission.

Marian Perera · Aug 3, 2013

ULTRAGOTHA said:
The cannon is lashed to the deck, the deck is tilting with that side of the deck down towards the kraken? In other words, if the cannon is on the starboard side of the ship, then the kraken is pulling the starboard side closer to the water and the port side is further up in the air? Is that right?

Pretty much, yes. I had the cannon positioned in the centre of the deck, and the kraken grabs the port side, pulling everything towards itself.

If the cannon are lashed down they probably wouldn't have cannon balls in them to begin with as the crew wouldn't put any powder or shot in while they're not in use and cannon are usually only lashed down when they're not in use. (They need to recoil when they are in use.)

Hmm. The crew has been warned that a kraken is likely to attack them, because it destroyed another ship by wrapping its tentacles around the ship's prow and dragging that down. That was why I had them lashing the cannon to the deck.

If it's not tied down, it's going to roll right up against the kraken's tentacles.

There's also only one cannon on the deck. This ship is competing in a race, which is why it's not carrying a lot of extra guns. There are two other cannons on the gun deck, but I'm thinking water may get through the open gunport on the port side of the ship when the kraken starts pulling it over.

I don't really need the cannon to fire. I just need the setup to be as accurate as possible under the circumstances.

Marian Perera · Aug 3, 2013

ULTRAGOTHA said:
And yes, I meant to ask Who, What, Where, When and Why about the sorts of ships you were using; but my cursor deleted that without my permission.

Heh. I'll try to answer as best I can.

Who : The ship is called Enlightenment.

What : She's a two-masted brig, perhaps 100 feet long.

Where : Open ocean, deep water.

When : The start of the Age of Steam, though Enlightenment is a sailing ship.

Why : She's taking part in a race, though what no one realizes at first is that there's a kraken stalking the competitors. Think the Great Tea Race of 1866 meets Das Boot.

Thanks for your help.

wendymarlowe · Aug 3, 2013

I'm not familiar with cannons and historical ships, but would it be possible to tie it *loosely* to the deck? As in, the cannon is tied with enough slack that it is able to recoil when fired but it wouldn't roll completely away if the kraken tips the ship?

Roxxsmom · Aug 3, 2013

Hmm, I just went to a talk about sex in history, and the speaker showed us some pictures of the old condoms. Some were made from fish swim bladders, and some from animal intestines or bladders (lamb or pig were common). I'd guess the ones made from fish swim bladders would smell fishy, but none of us thought to ask what the different kinds might have smelled like. The picture I saw of one made from pig intestines looked like you'd expect it to--a sausage casing.

My guess is they might have smelled a bit earthy at least.

They evidently washed them out and reused them, and men would inflate them by blowing into them prior to use to make sure they didn't have holes. They were officially more about preventing disease than pregnancy, though if they caught all or most of the sperm, they'd likely help with both. In fact, viruses and bacteria are smaller than spermatozoa, so the things probably were actually better at pregnancy than disease prevention anyway.

Marian Perera · Aug 4, 2013

Roxxsmom said:
Hmm, I just went to a talk about sex in history

Lucky you.

I'd guess the ones made from fish swim bladders would smell fishy, but none of us thought to ask what the different kinds might have smelled like.

Well, the heroine's not a virgin, but it's the first time she's seen a condom, so she's curious about it.

The picture I saw of one made from pig intestines looked like you'd expect it to--a sausage casing.

My guess is they might have smelled a bit earthy at least.

They evidently washed them out and reused them

:|

I think I can use them in the sex scene and still make it hot, but I also think I shall leave off the washing-and-reusing part. Plus, as they're on board a ship, fresh water is somewhat limited and I can't see the salt water doing the condoms any good.

But thanks very much for the tip about the smell.

jclarkdawe · Aug 4, 2013

As Thothguard says, cannons would have padding put in to hold the cannon ball in place. Ships roll, which is actually an important aspect of using cannons on ships. Depending upon the weather, the roll can be a significant number of degrees.

Further, sailboats heel, and for tactical and strategic reasons, sometimes you'd load the leeboard cannons. They'd be angled down by several degrees.

When not in use, the cannons are lashed fore and aft of the cannon, to minimize roll to an inch or so. A loose cannon, weighing several tons, can destroy a ship.

So the captain of the ship decides to fire the cannons, what happens next? The covers are removed from the cannon, as salt water in the barrel is not a good thing. The cannon is then hauled back, away from the side of the ship, and loaded (cannons were muzzle loaded).

Loaded cannon is then pulled back to the side of the ship, and the ports are opened. Cannon's barrel is then pulled through the opening and is held in place. Cannon is fired and recoil causes cannon to spring towards the center of the boat, to be stopped by lashings (otherwise it would shot out the other side). Cannon is then swapped out, and reloading commences.

At no time is the cannon not lashed down. Control of the cannon needs to be maintained at all times. Firing goal was three shots every two minutes. Screwing around with a cannon not being where it should be would kill that pace.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

ULTRAGOTHA · Aug 4, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
Cannon is then swapped out, and reloading commences.

Swabbed. Though the idea of swapping out a cannon every time it is fired is amusing. (Probably not to the gun crews, I'll bet!)

Of the OP is going for as late as the brink of the age of steam, I'm out. My knowledge of even Napoleonic era ships is shaky. Later than that I'm just dangerously ignorant. (Though I agree with everything jclarkdawe just said, minus the typo.

)

This book might be of use:
Instructions for the exercise and service of great guns, etc., on board Her Majesty's Ships (1858)

CWatts · Aug 4, 2013

If you're near the age of steam, then rubber (not latex) condoms may also be available. There was an overlap between those and the animal skin condoms in the mid-to-late 1800s until latex came around, as the "rubbers" (giving rise to the name, of course) were a bit on the thick side. Some of them only covered the glans and had to be specially fitted to the man - effectively a male diaphragm if you will. Unsurprisingly, these tended to become detacted during the act.

(Hey I had to research this for one of my WIPs with the surprising amount of 'culture wars' over birth control and women's sexuality that went on in 1870s New York. I swear, Victoria Woodhull is one of those historical figures that no one would find 'believable' if she was a fictional character...!)

jclarkdawe · Aug 4, 2013

ULTRAGOTHA said:
Swabbed. Though the idea of swapping out a cannon every time it is fired is amusing. (Probably not to the gun crews, I'll bet!)

Fussy, although my version is funnier. Too tired this morning, I guess.

Jim Clark-Dawe

Roxxsmom · Aug 4, 2013

Queen of Swords said:
:|

I think I can use them in the sex scene and still make it hot, but I also think I shall leave off the washing-and-reusing part.

Yes, some things are best left to the imagination! Like with combat, less can be more when writing these kinds of scenes

Infusing a bit of gentle humor can work, though.

Marian Perera · Aug 5, 2013

CWatts said:
If you're near the age of steam, then rubber (not latex) condoms may also be available. There was an overlap between those and the animal skin condoms in the mid-to-late 1800s until latex came around, as the "rubbers" (giving rise to the name, of course) were a bit on the thick side. Some of them only covered the glans and had to be specially fitted to the man - effectively a male diaphragm if you will. Unsurprisingly, these tended to become detacted during the act.

I read about those and wondered how in the world they managed to stay on.

I want to go with lambskin condoms, though - partly because they sound more historic than rubbers and partly because they sound sexier than rubbers. IMO, that is. Rubber sounds functional, while lambskin sounds exotic.

Marian Perera · Aug 5, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
As Thothguard says, cannons would have padding put in to hold the cannon ball in place. Ships roll, which is actually an important aspect of using cannons on ships. Depending upon the weather, the roll can be a significant number of degrees.

Snipping the rest. Thanks for the detailed explanation, Jim. I'm going to read it again closely, looking up all the unfamiliar terms, and then I'm going to try to make the scene as accurate as possible. I originally had one cannon on a turntable on the deck so it could fire in any direction, but after an initial read of your post it sounds like two cannons, one pointing port and one starboard, would be better. Even if one cannon can't fire because the kraken's arms are looping over it, the other one could.

jclarkdawe · Aug 5, 2013

Sailing ships didn't have gun turrets that revolved. On the bow and stern there might be carronades that fired closer to the direction of the boat. There wasn't really the technology for revolving guns.

Normally sailing ships relied on broadsides fired by banks of guns on either side. In large part, this style is dictated by the limited mobility of sailing ships. Depending upon the sailing ability of the ship, there's a significant amount of the compass that you can't sail.

A merchant ship would have somewhere between two to five cannon on each side. These would be smaller then the 24 pounders favored by the British navy. A merchant ship might have one or two stern chasers for dealing with pirates trying to overtake them.

You might want to look at Naval artillery in the Age of Sail

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Marian Perera · Aug 5, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
Sailing ships didn't have gun turrets that revolved. On the bow and stern there might be carronades that fired closer to the direction of the boat. There wasn't really the technology for revolving guns.

I have to admit, I was influenced by George R. R. Martin's A Storm of Swords here. IIRC there's a line where Jon thinks they should have had a turntable on top of the Wall so the catapult or trebuchet could swivel to fire in different directions, so I thought of having a turntable on the ship as well.

But it's probably simpler to just have two cannons, port and starboard.

A merchant ship would have somewhere between two to five cannon on each side. These would be smaller then the 24 pounders favored by the British navy. A merchant ship might have one or two stern chasers for dealing with pirates trying to overtake them.

Stern chasers! Thanks for that term. I hadn't read it before.

I don't want this ship to have a lot of weaponry on board, though, because it's taking part in a race and doesn't expect pirates (or krakens, for that matter).

jclarkdawe · Aug 5, 2013

I think the first working movable turret was on the Monitor in 1863 or thereabouts.

If I was looking for a minimum of cannons, I think I'd set up a lone nine in the stern cabin as a stern chaser. A long nine was one of the most accurate cannons of the day, and had a range of something like three miles. It's a bit longer then a normal cannon, but lighter and does less damage to the ship.

On either side of the bow, covering an arc of the front half of the ship, I'd place a carronade. This was a short, smooth-bore cannon. Nothing great for accuracy, but nicknamed "smashers" because of their power.

These cannons could be fired even with a kraken blocking the barrel. Might cause the barrel to explode, but it would still make a kraken's life pretty miserable. It wasn't unknown for sailing ships to be rubbing sides as the cannons were fired. Because of the recoil, the cannon will spring back, minimizing the chances of the barrel exploding.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

WeaselFire · Aug 6, 2013

Rail guns, swivel guns or hand cannons. They are small cannons mounted on a rail or stanchion on a ship and used at close quarters. Usually for repelling boarders or clearing an enemy deck, they are often loaded with shot and a cotton wad to hold the powder and shot in. They do well when depressed, as in your Kraken description and are effective at the close range you're describing. Also, they are light, don't roll on a heeling vessel and would be appropriate to the time, though a bit old fashioned.

Jeff

Marian Perera · Aug 9, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
If I was looking for a minimum of cannons, I think I'd set up a lone nine in the stern cabin as a stern chaser.

That's the new plan. One cannon to port, one to starboard, one as a stern chaser (though I'm thinking it's on the stern deck rather than in a cabin) and one below decks, just in case something happens to the first three.

I also realized I was a complete dope. I put the helmsman at the prow instead of the stern. Not sure why it didn't occur to me that the steering (and therefore the helm) was connected to the rudder and therefore had to be near the rudder. :Headbang:

Oh well. At least the sex scene turned out OK.

NeuroFizz · Aug 10, 2013

If it helps your timeline, Charles Goodyear accidentally discovered the process of vulcanization of rubber in 1839, and he obtained several patents for rubber condoms and other forms of rubber-based forms of contraception in the 1840s (including a type of diaphragm). He had to deal with patent infringements, with a well-documented court case of Goodyear vs. Day in 1852.

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