Is recent writing getting too "conceptual"?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
7,632
Reaction score
1,204
Location
London, UK
Website
torgoblog.blogspot.com
Started reading, found myself unconsciously doing a particular hand-gesture, closed tab.
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
Started reading, found myself unconsciously doing a particular hand-gesture, closed tab.

Same here.

But in general, this always re-happens, with artistic movements constantly bouncing back and forth between the two, in reaction to what came before.

Nothing is permanent. Everything stays the same. Over and over again.
 

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
9,493
Reaction score
4,283
Location
Coastal North Carolina
This is one of the best examples of intellectual masturbation I've seen in a long time. To me, is smacks of the absurd argument that "pantsers" are better than "outliners" because outlining destroys creativity. The article focuses on poetry, and I've lost track of some of the recent trends in that arena, but to suggest that conceptualization and intuitiveness are mutually exclusive intellectual properties is equally absurd. I don't know why people feel like they can best push their personal slants on writing by setting up dummy enemies and false dichotomies, but it happens all too frequently.

There are frequent trend shifts in various writing areas, and as k says (above), they bounce back and forth over time. But the pointing of fingers here seems more like a witch hunt than a serious and impartial investigation into any kind of causation.
 

annetookeen

has a hedgehog
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
1,601
Reaction score
139
Location
Philippines
Website
the-sword-that-speaks.blogspot.com
... but to suggest that conceptualization and intuitiveness are mutually exclusive intellectual properties is equally absurd. I don't know why people feel like they can best push their personal slants on writing by setting up dummy enemies and false dichotomies, but it happens all too frequently.

This.
 

lolchemist

Shooting stars.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
1,334
Reaction score
183
Location
California
I'll freely admit I'm not too familiar with opinion pieces regarding poetry but although I do expect them to be a little bit more *flavorful* when I see things like this:
Vehemence of feeling nonplusses the modern personality, a hostage to ambiguity and irony.

I just want to go "WAT ARE YOU DOING STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!!!"

And then there's this run-on beauty that ends itself with a bit of WTF-ery:

Writers who pride themselves on conceiving projects and executing them according to plan—thus relatively indifferent to the intrinsic value of what is produced and to the quality of the production itself—neglect life values, which include a trembling web of receptivity, sharply interested observation, the ability to make instant adjustments, and organic developments within a constantly changing context, all properties as important to lyric poets as to cats.

I think this guy needs to go back to school and have his professor yell at him a little because this is not a good look. Whatever point he was trying to make got hopelessly lost in the bewildering jungle of an op-ed.
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Any time writers get philosophical about writing, it's almost certain to turn out badly...
 

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
14,205
Reaction score
884
Location
Edmonton, Canada
The essay and the comments at the bottom made no sense. And I frequently read the poetry forum! :(
 

swvaughn

adrift
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
2,037
Reaction score
593
Oof. Too many big words and fancy talk for me...we're naught but humble pirates over here.

I can only read stuff like this first thing in the morning, before my brain starts the daily slide toward the fourth state of matter (mush), or very late at night, when everything makes total sense until I wake up and go "WTF was I thinking, again?"

But the author of this piece does seem to be reaching a bit. :D
 

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
9,232
Reaction score
1,897
Location
Providence, RI
Dude, I just write stories. When I do it right, I find that story suggests structure and theme during and after the first draft. Is that concept or intuition?

Dunno. Just writing stories. I wonder if poetry, the mode most dependent on form and the word itself, isn't more susceptible to such analysis than prose?
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
To me, is smacks of the absurd argument that "pantsers" are better than "outliners" because outlining destroys creativity.

Pantsing is better for *me* because outlining destroys *my* creativity. Outlining works fine for those it works for. If I've ever presented my position as anything other than that, it was inadvertent....

ETA: read a bit of the article. don't read much poetry. think almost anything is better than those Romantics, though. They overwhelm so much with their own emotions there's no room for the reader to have any....
 

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
14,205
Reaction score
884
Location
Edmonton, Canada
Dude, I just write stories. When I do it right, I find that story suggests structure and theme during and after the first draft. Is that concept or intuition?

Dunno. Just writing stories. I wonder if poetry, the mode most dependent on form and the word itself, isn't more susceptible to such analysis than prose?

Either which way, what is the babble about affect? He comes back to it like Vizzini and I'm baffled.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
I have no problem find far more than enough good books to fill all my available reading time, so I really don't care abut such arguments. As long as writers keep turning out books I love, I simply don't care about anything else.
 

Samsonet

Just visiting
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
184
Location
See my avatar? The next galaxy over.
Maybe it's because I don't read enough grown-up books, but I can't remember ever seeing the brain shown as superior to the heart. Every time, the situation ends up like this:

Narrator: There is really no point in living how your head tells you to. If you don't listen to your heart, you'll never find happiness.

It's kind of annoying.

I wouldn't mind reading something more cerebral, really. If the author manages to balance the two, that would be ideal. Especially in poetry.
 
Last edited:

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
This is one of the best examples of intellectual masturbation I've seen in a long time. To me, is smacks of the absurd argument that "pantsers" are better than "outliners" because outlining destroys creativity. The article focuses on poetry, and I've lost track of some of the recent trends in that arena, but to suggest that conceptualization and intuitiveness are mutually exclusive intellectual properties is equally absurd. I don't know why people feel like they can best push their personal slants on writing by setting up dummy enemies and false dichotomies, but it happens all too frequently.

There are frequent trend shifts in various writing areas, and as k says (above), they bounce back and forth over time. But the pointing of fingers here seems more like a witch hunt than a serious and impartial investigation into any kind of causation.

This. Basically, a lot of words that actually said nothing at all.
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
Affect is a word they've nicked from psychology. Affect is the experience or display of emotion. When psych people talk about 'inappropriate affect', they mean someone who laughs at an event that would usually make people cry, eg a puppy dying.
 

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 16, 2010
Messages
16,441
Reaction score
1,529
Location
between rising apes and falling angels
Website
www.cranehanabooks.com
The level of earnest-but-flailing artspeak in this article would be hilarious if most of the MFA writing programs (and literary magazines) around didn't appear to take themselves just as seriously.

But I'm not the right person to judge. I became a commercial artist because it paid. I have not diligently followed new trends in poetry for 20 years. Certainly not since I learned I could turn my poetry into book art and, well, sell it. For more than a fraction of a cent per word.
 

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
7,063
Reaction score
1,642
One thing I find amusing is that art that touches the heart--that makes more sense emotionally than it does logically--is the art that provokes the greatest density of critical, rational analysis.

And science at its most pure and mathematically-elegant provokes the strongest emotions--excitement and awe.

Humans have two streams of problem-solving ability, logical (i.e. conceptual) and associative (i.e. intuitive). We use both; we always will.

And we probably always should. Why abandon half the tools in your toolbox?
 

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
11,681
Reaction score
10,337
Location
In my head
Website
thewanderingquille.blogspot.com
One thing I find amusing is that art that touches the heart--that makes more sense emotionally than it does logically--is the art that provokes the greatest density of critical, rational analysis.

And science at its most pure and mathematically-elegant provokes the strongest emotions--excitement and awe.

Humans have two streams of problem-solving ability, logical (i.e. conceptual) and associative (i.e. intuitive). We use both; we always will.

And we probably always should. Why abandon half the tools in your toolbox?

"No, guys, it's cool. I've got a screwdriver now, so I don't need a hammer anymore. I can just use the handle to knock in any nails I've got."

I'll be honest, my brain started to shut down at that vehemence line and refused to try and comprehend anything after that.
 

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
14,205
Reaction score
884
Location
Edmonton, Canada
Affect is a word they've nicked from psychology. Affect is the experience or display of emotion. When psych people talk about 'inappropriate affect', they mean someone who laughs at an event that would usually make people cry, eg a puppy dying.

I knew that. That is why I am saying this guy is being a lot like Vizzini.
 

lastlittlebird

avem narrans
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 7, 2009
Messages
1,316
Reaction score
161
Location
Australia
Website
lastlittlebird.blogspot.com
This is why I'm hesitant to get involved in the literary/poetry scene around here (by "here" I mean locally, not AW). I just can't get my head around this kind of language and it feels like you need to be fluent in it for anyone to take you seriously.

I'm going to end up telling people I think a poem has value because "it's pretty and made me sad, but, you know, in that good way. Some people might not like it and that's OK too".
 

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
... doesn't seem like a bad evaluation to me.
There's some truth to it. But I don't really believe
it is exclusively a modern trend. Emily Dickinson
was just as much of a "conceptualist" as modern
poets, as was Shelley and numerous others.
The only possible difference is that modern poets
are more obvious and in your face about it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.