Debate: Are Libraries Good or Bad

Hilldawg · Jul 23, 2013

Hi All-

Let me start by introducing myself as a librarian as well as an author. Because of my affiliations, I tend to think that libraries are pretty awesome places. But recently, I've seen discussions or comments to the contrary.

Here's the most recent quote I came across: "Libraries poll extremely well among the general population...Authors, Hollywood, and the Music Industry have more mixed feelings. Successful artists feel that libraries cut into their profits...Librarians counter with studies and polls that demonstrate our ability to support sales" (From Content Warehouse to Content Producer by Joseph Sanchez, Douglas County Libraries, whitepaper 2013).

What do you think about this? Do you feel that libraries are problematic in this regard?

Recently, libraries have begun to join the maker movement, which means making content as well as disseminating content. Some libraries have built maker labs for library patrons to learn/create with digital resources, mechanics and engineering, even self-publishing. Those who support this movement say that content creation is the future of libraries.

How do you feel about this? If libraries became publishers would you be interested in their services?

Thanks,
Hillary

JoBird · Jul 23, 2013

I actually don't know anyone who still goes to libraries. Do libraries get a lot of traffic these days?

I don't see the point of libraries acting as middlemen to self-publishers. Maybe I don't understand what you're saying.

Hilldawg · Jul 23, 2013

Yes, we still see many people coming into libraries - of all socioeconomic backgrounds. Libraries are especially popular with families because of all the free programming, including storytime, for children. But really, all ages come into my library. We're a medium sized library which serves a district population of 24,000 people. Each day, we see 500-1000 people visiting.

The maker concept I'm talking about is not having libraries be a middleman to self-publishers but becoming self-publishers themselves. Several libraries in California have purchased printing equipment and not only produce ebooks but also real live print books.

I guess, JoBird, that means I have a different question for you...what would libraries need to do/be for you, a nonuser, to be interested in using them? Toss out the traditional (and completely outdated) notions of libraries only being a mausoleum for books. What else could a library offer that would be exciting?

Hillary

Jamesaritchie · Jul 23, 2013

Even if libraries did cut into my profits, which they do not, it would not make libraries would. Libraries are wonderful places that serve a high and noble function in society.

Anyone who doesn't spend a LOT of time in libraries is either rich enough to buy every book he could possibly want or need, or he's an idiot. And anyone who doesn't help support local libraries should be drummed out of writing.

Besides, I have no doubt that many, many readers don't just borrow books, they discover writers at libraries, and go out and buy books that writer has available.

I ive in, or right next to, a small, Midwestern city of about 17,000, but our library is constantly busy, not only with those who can't afford to buy all the books they want, but with all sorts of people, from all economic and social strata. It's a meeting ground for writers, artists of all types, and for a dozen other types of groups.

It's a place where I can go watch a play, where I can meet all sorts of new people, where I can help literacy, and where a pretty fair number of people discover books for the first time. But a local library is exactly what those interested in writing, reading, and literacy make it.

I think a truly civilized society would be one that had no jails, no courthouses, but a library large enough to loan every person in town all the books they could read, and by every writer who ever put pen to paper.

Maggie Maxwell · Jul 23, 2013

I may not go there very often, but I live five minutes away from my local library. I love that it's there. I grew up in libraries and discovered so many people and places there. Now, I'm a buyer. I like to have books to keep so they're right there if the urge strikes me to reread them, but when I have children, I want my library to be there, filled with books I grew up reading and the thousands of new ones that have come out since then for my kids. And if the day comes that I get published, I want kids and adults alike to be able to fall in love with my books on the shelves of their libraries just as much as the shelves of their local bookstore.

I don't really understand complaining about libraries cutting into profits. Are they complaining about every person that lends a book out to a friend as well? Some people just don't buy books. They borrow. If they're buyers and find it at their library, they'll buy it later if they liked it, or they'll tell their friends who will buy it. If they're borrowers, it was never a sale anyway.

Mclesh · Jul 23, 2013

Hilldawg, I had to jump over here and see if this was a serious question! Libraries are good, for no other reason than they provide access to knowledge and information. We need that in order to have a more well-informed society. We NEED that!

I grew up using the public library. My son got his first library card at age three. We went every two weeks or so to stock up on books. Our local library is well used. As an author, I would love it if every library in the land loaned my books out.

Content creation? Why not, as long as the library were to be able to offer the services without losing money. Would I use the services offered? Probably not.

JoBird · Jul 23, 2013

Hilldawg said:
I guess, JoBird, that means I have a different question for you...what would libraries need to do/be for you, a nonuser, to be interested in using them? Toss out the traditional (and completely outdated) notions of libraries only being a mausoleum for books. What else could a library offer that would be exciting?

Hillary

It's a fair question, but ultimately something I have to give some thought to.

In regards to reading, I tend to get books on my e-readers or tablet or computer. Or I purchase physical copies.

In regards to movies/videos/streaming, I rely on my computer, tablet, and television by accessing netflix, hulu+, cable, on demand, etc.

I suppose this leaves social interaction. I've never seen my local library host author signings, but maybe that happens and I fail to notice. I've never seen convention'esque panels at my local library. That's something I think would entice me to visit.

In regards to publishing, or creating content, how so? Whom do you envision writing the material that the library would self-publish? The library itself, of course, can't write. It's a library, not a person. For instance, if the book being published is called BOOK A, surely you don't mean: introducing BOOK A as written by The Library. That's what I mean when I say I'm having trouble understanding. How is the library not acting as a middleman to self-publishing? Under this model, is the library paying someone to publish, or just funding the publishing of an author then providing an outlet for the author's novel?

Brightdreamer · Jul 23, 2013

My paycheck comes from the local library system.

Therefore, libraries are good.

As for the question... just which "successful artists" are they referring to? Libraries expose people to things they may not have access to, or may not have thought they'd like, if it weren't free to them; I'd think that would increase the potential buyer pool, not decrease it. This sounds more like a complaint from a company than an artist - the kind of company that's overrunning the gaming industry and turning games into an online-only subscription service rather than an outright purchase. If you're successful as an artist, obviously people are paying for your goods or services, regardless of libraries and lending. If not, you may just be looking for someone to blame. I would think truly successful artists would be more concerned about piracy than legitimate lending services like libraries, but that's JMHO.

Axordil · Jul 23, 2013

I've liked the idea of libraries being showrooms for books for a while now. I'd like it even better if we were talking not only about self-pubbing, but about deals with publishers to implement a one-click e-book purchase or POD purchase after I've read a book I'd like to keep. Conversely, I'd like to be able to check out self-pubbed stuff, because the chaff to wheat ratio is even worse than it is for trade published books, and sometimes you need more than an excerpt to figure out a book isn't for you.

B & N has three years left at the outside as a physical bookstore chain. Indies, alas, are missing from much of the landscape, in the U.S. at least. There's a niche about to open up.

quicklime · Jul 23, 2013

i can buy whatever the hell i want to read now. And generally do--haven't been in a library for some time.

That said, not everyone has that luxury, and libraries serve other functions as well.

dangerousbill · Jul 23, 2013

JoBird said:
I actually don't know anyone who still goes to libraries. Do libraries get a lot of traffic these days?

I live a convenient walk from a branch library, one of 20 in our county system. It's expanded from book loan and storage to a community center. It has the following functions:

1. A substantial collection of books, magazines, newspapers, audiobooks, DVDs, music, and ebooks. And yes, people do borrow them.

2. A used bookshop run by the Friends of the XXX Library association.

3. A bank of about 20 networked computers that are in use all day long.

4. An area for teenagers to do homework, read, socialize.

5. A children's library with facilities for parents to keep watch while kids interact.

6. Rows of easy chairs. A lot of the elderly can't afford to keep their air conditioning running in our southwest desert summers, and they spend the heat of the afternoon in the library.

7. Meeting rooms for community associations and clubs.

8. Public bulletin board, notices and handouts. EG, local clubs and associations, bus schedules, etc.

9. A bank of copiers and wireless printers.

10. Interlibrary loan facilities.

11. Local authors shelf.

Given that this is a bedroom suburb with little else in the way of public facilities, it's one of the few places where people can get together without having to buy something.

Hilldawg · Jul 23, 2013

JoBird said:
In regards to publishing, or creating content, how so? Whom do you envision writing the material that the library would self-publish? The library itself, of course, can't write. It's a library, not a person. For instance, if the book being published is called BOOK A, surely you don't mean: introducing BOOK A as written by The Library. That's what I mean when I say I'm having trouble understanding. How is the library not acting as a middleman to self-publishing? Under this model, is the library paying someone to publish, or just funding the publishing of an author then providing an outlet for the author's novel?

Of course I'm not talking about "The Library" writing books although I wonder at the stories it could tell. I mean that the library would become a publisher, meaning authors could publish their works through library resources and equipment. Some libraries have already developed their own imprints.

This would mean that authors would have a free or low-cost alternative to the self-publishers found online. This model would allow authors to create ebooks for no charge (but the author would be able to sell their ebooks for their own profit) and the book would also end up in the library's collection. Afterall, libraries aren't in it for money. We are in it to create valuable resources and provide tools to our patron base. We are tax-funded. Wouldn't you like for your taxes to go towards promoting creativity and the arts?

Does that help clarify what I'm talking about? It's a bit radical and completely different from most people's notion of what libraries are there for - but it's happening.

Calla Lily · Jul 23, 2013

I'm constantly in my local libraries, and they're more often than not packed with a huge age range of people from kids to seniors.

heza · Jul 23, 2013

JoBird said:
In regards to publishing, or creating content, how so? Whom do you envision writing the material that the library would self-publish? The library itself, of course, can't write. It's a library, not a person. For instance, if the book being published is called BOOK A, surely you don't mean: introducing BOOK A as written by The Library. That's what I mean when I say I'm having trouble understanding. How is the library not acting as a middleman to self-publishing? Under this model, is the library paying someone to publish, or just funding the publishing of an author then providing an outlet for the author's novel?

Right. As in, if the library "publishes" it, is that entity somehow assuming ownership of the copyrights?

Siri Kirpal · Jul 23, 2013

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

My husband walks to the library--several miles away--several times a week. He used to work in one. He gets most of his books from libraries, but sometimes buys used or remaindered.

If I need to use the library, I don't need to go there, because my husband picks up whatever I need. Usually I buy new. Sometimes, I buy copies of things my husband brought home from the library. So, no, I don't think libraries cut into author sales. And anyway, sales to libraries are also sales, right?

I have attended special events at libraries, most recently the creation of a sand painting by a group of Tibetan monks.

Oh, and I think some periodicals would go belly-up if it weren't for libraries making them available to the public.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

jjdebenedictis · Jul 23, 2013

Okay, that thread title is horribly misleading. Are libraries good? Why, yes! Yes, they are!

But that's not what you're asking. At all.

I resent the outrage-bait headline and the bait-and-switch content.

patskywriter · Jul 23, 2013

Hmm, I don't think the maker phenomenon has hit us yet, but I can say that our county library system is awesome! I'm a journalist and am always stopping by the libraries for books, CDs, and DVDs. They're always busy—especially the two "black" libraries that were folded into the system. Kids are reading while sitting and lying all over the place in the children's section, while others are on the Gates-Foundation-supplied computers. All of the computers in the adult section are in use, too. In the downtown and some branch libraries, people get free training in how to conduct job searches and check email. The shelves are well stocked and if you need a book on any particular subject, the library is likely to have it or can get it for you (via interlibrary loan).

Our library system's advocacy group puts together wonderful programming, which is usually centered around North Carolina authors, filmmakers, and jazz musicians. The OASIS program helps the seniors while the Bookmobile tours the low-income areas.

The summer reading program is in full swing now. It's marketed well, with support offered by local businesses and media—and if the kickoff event was any indication, thousands of people are excited about participating in it.

I approached library administrators with an idea for a series of writing workshops. Not only did they agree to it, but they turned around and paid me to lead them. (LOL, they didn't know that I was willing to do them for free.)

I can't think of anything negative to say about my local libraries. They have branches in low-income housing, they're open on Sundays, they allow you to order and renew books online, they have ballroom and zumba classes, they have storytimes for the kiddies (some in Spanish, French, and Japanese), they have craft classes and anime movies/book discussions for teens and preteens, the age 50+ crowd meets there, they hold college-recruitment sessions and forums, they have study rooms for mentors and their kids, and they solicit and safeguard historic documents—gee, what's not to like?

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 23, 2013

jjdebenedictis said:
Okay, that thread title is horribly misleading. Are libraries good? Why, yes! Yes, they are!

But that's not what you're asking. At all.

I resent the outrage-bait headline and the bait-and-switch content.

I had this same issue.

I think libraries are great. I know many people who go there. When I was younger and before I had a computer, I borrowed hundreds of books from my local municipal library.

I don't anymore, mostly because I am at school for most of the year, and also because I now prefer owning books I read and because there is so much (legal) free content online from incredible authors.

As far as libraries becoming self-publishers, no I can't say I care for the idea. If they want to do it, great, but it shouldn't be some sort of requirement for all libraries.

(Now, I have access to many things for "making" that not everyone does, so that could make me a bit biased on this topic.)

Raindrop · Jul 23, 2013

I go to the public library every other week or so. I've taken chances with books I wouldn't have if I'd had to pay for them. Some were duds, but some were very nice surprises indeed. I can't buy at the moment, anyway, but I've added a few more books to my to-buy list thanks to my local library.

It's also smaller than most bookstores, so it's less intimidating. It doesn't sell junk food or unrelated items at the till (I'm looking at you, WH Smith). There's none of the "3 for 2!!!!! Even if none of these books interests you!!!!" and "This is soooo trendy!!!!" crap either.

Besides, it's got reference books that I wouldn't even dream of buying. Expensive, heavy books on costumes, art, languages... You name it. I still need to explore that study room a bit more -- it's well hidden, but it's there!

Once I can, I'll go to Blackwell's with the list of books I want to buy. And I'll still go to the library.

benbradley · Jul 23, 2013

For what it's worth (and people unfamiliar with the concept), here's the latest article I've seen on the makerspaces-in-libraries phenomenon:
http://boingboing.net/2013/07/19/libraries-and-makerspaces-join.html

Hilldawg said:
Hi All-

Let me start by introducing myself as a librarian as well as an author. Because of my affiliations, I tend to think that libraries are pretty awesome places. But recently, I've seen discussions or comments to the contrary.

I've heard of such arguments on both sides (and I've heard of one argument in defense of libraries used for the the defense of an activity I'd rather not go into in this thread).

Mclesh said:
Here's the most recent quote I came across: "Libraries poll extremely well among the general population...Authors, Hollywood, and the Music Industry have more mixed feelings. Successful artists feel that libraries cut into their profits...Librarians counter with studies and polls that demonstrate our ability to support sales" (From Content Warehouse to Content Producer by Joseph Sanchez, Douglas County Libraries, whitepaper 2013).

What do you think about this? Do you feel that libraries are problematic in this regard?

I agree with what I've seen over the years here in AW's forums, we're generally very supportive of libraries. I think those who see libraries as "competing with book sales"

My local library is two miles away, though I only go there every two or three months or so, and read the latest issues of Scientific American and check out the "New Books" shelf. Every once in a while I'll check out a book, or if I have a title in mind I'm interested in, I'll check the online catalog to see if the local system has it before actually going to the library.

But many or most of the books I want to read are not popular enough to be in anything but the largest public libraries, so I get them elsewhere.

Recently, libraries have begun to join the maker movement, which means making content as well as disseminating content. Some libraries have built maker labs for library patrons to learn/create with digital resources, mechanics and engineering, even self-publishing. Those who support this movement say that content creation is the future of libraries.

How do you feel about this? If libraries became publishers would you be interested in their services?

Thanks,
Hillary

Click to expand...

I think the Maker Movement is kind-of something separate. For one thing, you don't have to create to do 3d printing, there's lots of wonderful Things on thingiverse.com you can download for free and print. The latest common print I see being printed at the local hackerspace (Freeside Atlanta) is these planetary herringbone gears:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOWsFkZ2tBE
They usually need some work after printing to break the gears apart (you can adjust the "gap distance" between the gears when printing, but if it's too much the gears will be too loose), but it's a great example of what can be done.

The "content creation" part involves 3d design software, which even the common, easiest programs such as Openscad and Google Sketchup (now just Sketchup, a separate company from Google) take some skill and time to learn. But yes, once you become proficient at it, it opens up a new world.

As far as other types of content creation, I've heard of small writers/crit groups meeting at libraries for many years, and recently NaNoWriMo has had this "Come Write In" program for libraries.

To amplify others' questions, do you think libraries will become actual publishers, or are they just providing more tools for writers and other "content creators?" So far it just looks like the latter to me. "Real" publishing is surely too big a thing for libraries to do. However, I've heard of "how to use computers" and "How to use the Internet" classes at libraries, and I can imagine "how to create a blog" and "How to write and edit a book" and "how to upload a book to CreateSpace" classes.

Mclesh said:

Content creation? Why not, as long as the library were to be able to offer the services without losing money. Would I use the services offered? Probably not.

Click to expand...

I think libraries by definition lose money. They're given money from (usually local) governments and spend it on providing books to loan for free, and other services.

It will be interesting to see which local governments specifically fund such makerspaces in libraries. I'm sure Silicon Valley and other high-tech areas would be all over this. It would be similar to FIRST Robotics (except that FIRST teams are mostly privately funded) in that it allows children (of all ages!) to learn about 3d printing technology.

Click to expand...

JoBird · Jul 23, 2013

Hilldawg said:
Of course I'm not talking about "The Library" writing books although I wonder at the stories it could tell. I mean that the library would become a publisher, meaning authors could publish their works through library resources and equipment. Some libraries have already developed their own imprints.

This would mean that authors would have a free or low-cost alternative to the self-publishers found online. This model would allow authors to create ebooks for no charge (but the author would be able to sell their ebooks for their own profit) and the book would also end up in the library's collection. Afterall, libraries aren't in it for money. We are in it to create valuable resources and provide tools to our patron base. We are tax-funded. Wouldn't you like for your taxes to go towards promoting creativity and the arts?

Does that help clarify what I'm talking about? It's a bit radical and completely different from most people's notion of what libraries are there for - but it's happening.

It clarifies a point, yes. But you also claim the library isn't acting as a middleman in this model, which doesn't seem consistent. It sounds exactly like a middleman to me.

To my understanding self-publishing costs next to nothing. I guess I like the idea of self-published novels being offered by libraries, but to my knowledge, libraries already offer self-published novels in their inventory. In this model, it seems like the difference is that the self-published novel wouldn't be purchased, it would just be placed within the library's list of titles.

To be fair, I could be wrong about the cost of self-publishing. I'm not sure what services libraries could offer to that end. Book covers? Editing? A computer to write the novel on?

Mentioning that self-publishers could use the library's resources to self-publish isn't actually saying anything. I suppose my question is, what resources?

I don't know. There's something about this that isn't clicking for me. Something feels off.

As to where I'd like to see my tax dollars go, that's a ginormous question probably appropriate for another thread.

Marian Perera · Jul 23, 2013

JoBird said:
I actually don't know anyone who still goes to libraries. Do libraries get a lot of traffic these days?

Last week I spent five hours in the Toronto Reference Library, making pages of notes to help with the WIP. And even that wasn't enough time, because there were so many books on the topic. I want to go back soon. I use websites, but those books were even better, and I don't have enough money to afford even half of them.

There are also three libraries within walking distance of me, and I use them for entertainment as well as research. I've had the experience of living in a city which had only one public library and a city with none (there was a private library which charged a small fee per book, and I'd have bankrupted myself at the rate I read). I'd much rather be here.

eleutheria · Jul 23, 2013

I love libraries and I think they provide an absolutely valuable service. Someone here mentioned that libraries serve as a place to test a work, so you can try it for free.

For me, that's invaluable. If I had the money and space, of course I would buy books. But I don't. I have to choose very carefully what I want to buy and support with my limited cash flow, and libraries let me do that. I can tell you that for me, if I could not try out books, I'd buy a lot less than I do now, just to avoid buying something I end up hating. Libraries let me go for those "I really don't think I'll like this, but why not" works, and I've discovered many excellent authors this way, that I do buy their new works when they come out. Patrick Rothfuss needs to hurry up, damn it.

Think of it this way - I heard of a study (I can't find it now) that said that those pirate entertainment not only have a large pirated collection, but also a larger bought collection than the average person.

WriterBN · Jul 23, 2013

I love libraries. I wrote most of my last book in one. For me, they provide a (usually) quiet place to write, and I enjoy being surrounded by books.

I don't see them as publishers, though.

EarlyBird · Jul 23, 2013

We are library regulars. I am clueless about any maker movement, in fact, this is the first I've heard of such a thing.

Although we visit the library on a regular basis, I still buy books. Oodles of 'em. Mostly electronic--I love my Kindle--but those count, too.

Debate: Are Libraries Good or Bad

Hilldawg

JoBird

Hilldawg

Jamesaritchie

Maggie Maxwell

Making Einstein cry since 1994

Mclesh

It's too hot

JoBird

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Axordil

Is this thing on?

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

dangerousbill

Retired Illuminatus

Hilldawg

Calla Lily

On hiatus

heza

Siri Kirpal

Swan in Process

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar

patskywriter

Liosse de Velishaf

Raindrop

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

JoBird

Marian Perera

starting over

eleutheria

WriterBN

EarlyBird

Grinding it out