Chinese Name - Surname or Given?

LHGalloway said:

I have a very brief flashback scene in my WIP which takes place in late 19th century China, in the Hetian region. In this scene, there are two young men in their late teens/early 20s. Both are friends who are working side by side as manual laborers.

I would like to give them each a name for clarity, but realize that given names are used differently than in the West.

How should I handle this? Should I give each man a full 3 part name, and then refer to him by his surname once referenced? Or, is using the given name okay, since it is used in the exposition and not in dialogue?

ex. Gao Jian Shi. Should he be called Gao (surname), or Jian Shi, or just Jian or Shi?

Example in context:
She was dressed in a funeral gown with the fabric still attached, her hair styled with elaborate hairpins. Gao watched as....

Also, do I need to introduce a full name, or can I just introduce him as Gao and not bother giving him a full name?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

If it's a short flashback I really don't think it matters. For simplicity sake I would just call him Gao or Jianshi or Shi (it's more rare to call only by the middle character). If they're friends, it's unlikely they're going to be calling each other by their full names.

(Of course, I could also point out it's unlikely they would be speaking Mandarin at the time and place, but that might be pushing it... )

IMHO: Asian names are FAMILY_NAME + FIRST_NAME. So, for Gao Jian Shi, Gao is the family name and Jian Shi is the first and middle name (I can't speak to how they might handle middle names and nicknames). It would also be Mr. Gao, not Mr. Shi, if that came up in a U.S. conversation.

I would introduce them the first time by his full name, possibly including a "meaning", as a lot of Asian names may have a meaning (you can probably look online and find some good names/meanings for your characters). After that, you have to decide if you want to call him Jian, Shi or Jian-Shi, all of which *might* be correct.

I don't know if the above "name order" holds true for people from India, Africa, etc, but I have conversed with Asians about the topic. One individual's name was Yu Xin - Xin is what he was called on a normal basis, not Yu.

Hope this helps. Other opinions welcomed.

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Just to Cornelius: In Punjab, names are ordered as they are in the West. But for Sikhs (most of whom are from Punjab), the middle name is the gender designator; Kaur for women, Singh for men. Technically, I am Siri Kirpal Kaur Khalsa.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

I can't remember ever being called only by given name in China. It was always SURNAME+GIVEN NAME together, and that's also how I think of my name in Chinese (like, if I were narrating my own story). People also addressed me by title (usually Laoshi, as I was teaching there) or nickname, but never just given name. Surname alone would sound okay to me in a narrative too, though.

Caveats: this is modern day, and I'm not fluent either linguistically or culturally, so there may be nuance I'm missing.

LHGalloway said:

Also, do I need to introduce a full name, or can I just introduce him as Gao and not bother giving him a full name?

Click to expand...

Unless it matters in the story, single names are fine. I have a character who happens to be American/US and is referred to almost always by his last name. That's built as part of his character, so it matters. Only intimate relationships use his first name.

Jeff

slhuang said:

I can't remember ever being called only by given name in China. It was always SURNAME+GIVEN NAME together, and that's also how I think of my name in Chinese (like, if I were narrating my own story). People also addressed me by title (usually Laoshi, as I was teaching there) or nickname, but never just given name. Surname alone would sound okay to me in a narrative too, though.

Caveats: this is modern day, and I'm not fluent either linguistically or culturally, so there may be nuance I'm missing.

Click to expand...

Interesting.

I'm rarely ever called my full name, except for introductions, formal occasions, or when I was younger and in trouble with my parents.

I'm called the combination of the second and third character of my name. So using the example Gao Jian Shi, people call me Jianshi

Old, Big or Small is the way to go

Finally, something I'm an expert on!

While it is possible for good friends to refer to each other simply by their surname in Chinese, it is much more common for them to use nicknames based on their surnames.

So, for example, "Gao" would most likely be called "Lao Gao" or "Da Gao" or "Xiao Gao."

That's: "Old Gao" or "Big Gao" or "Small Gao."

This is especially true with males.

Note that "Lao" is used even with young men. Sometimes, the "Lao" person is older than most of his friends, but this is not necessarily the case.

With women, it is very common to use nicknames that are repetitions of part of the given name.

For example, Gao Na Qing might be nicknamed "Qing Qing" ("Clear Clear").

[I'm talking about Mandarin. In Cantonese, it would be "Dai Gao" instead of "Da Gao," etc.].

I mention Mandarin vs. Cantonese only because Little Ming mentioned the use of Mandarin in an earlier entry. I'm not sure why the point was made, though -- the "Gao," "Jian" and "Shi" are all Mandarin (actually, Pinyin) spellings of names.

BTW: The nickname "Little Ming" is a case in point (regarding what I wrote above).

ThunderBoots said:

BTW: The nickname "Little Ming" is a case in point (regarding what I wrote above).

Click to expand...

Well... Xiaoming (or Siuming) can also be a given name. But I take your point.

ThunderBoots said:

I mention Mandarin vs. Cantonese only because Little Ming mentioned the use of Mandarin in an earlier entry. I'm not sure why the point was made, though -- the "Gao," "Jian" and "Shi" are all Mandarin (actually, Pinyin) spellings of names.

Click to expand...

LHGalloway said:

I made an assumption that Mandarin names could be used in 19th century Xinjiang without researching whether that would be the case, so I guess that was Little Ming's reference to language.

Click to expand...

^ Pretty much that. As I understand it, Mandarin didn't become the official language of China until the last century, and even now if you go to smaller towns or villages away from the big cities, you'll still find a lot of people speaking different dialects, or sometimes even a combination of dialects.

So my point was, given this was the 19th century in a place farther west, and historically, culturally different from the bigger cities like Beijing, would these characters call each other Mandarin names? I actually don't know the answer, but it's a possibility.

But again, since this is just a brief flashback and the OP isn't going to make the location specific, I really don't think it's a problem... hence why I added it at the end of my response in parenthesis and with a smiley face.

Pedantic Me

Thanks, Little Ming, for pointing that out -- I forgot that Mandarin didn't become the official language for all of China until near the very end of the Qing Dynasty.

Still, I'd say the northern dialects are similar enough to Mandarin (i.e. which is based on the Peking dialect) ... at least, compared to the Southern dialects ... to be able to get away with surnames written in standard Pinyin.

That is, unless the characters are supposed to be Muslim locals of Xinjiang -- in which case, no way.

But the author has made it clear that's not the case.

I doubt that anyone -- even someone as pedantic as me when it comes to these things! -- would be paying that close attention to this detail as to be unable to suspend disbelief for the rest of what sounds like an intriguing story.

Either full name or given name, or "xiao (insert last name)" if the character is young and on familiar terms with the person calling him that. No one ever calls someone else by last name alone.

slhuang said:

I can't remember ever being called only by given name in China. It was always SURNAME+GIVEN NAME together, and that's also how I think of my name in Chinese (like, if I were narrating my own story). People also addressed me by title (usually Laoshi, as I was teaching there) or nickname, but never just given name. Surname alone would sound okay to me in a narrative too, though.

Caveats: this is modern day, and I'm not fluent either linguistically or culturally, so there may be nuance I'm missing.

Click to expand...

In China people often call me by given name only, but I have a three character name. That usually doesn't happen with people who have 3 character names.

Given name alone is fine. I''ve read lots of Chinese drama from various periods and characters refer to each other by their given names only all the time. If a character has rank they might be called master (given name) or madame (given name). Or familial titles might be used. But among equals given name alone is fine.

LHGalloway said:

I have a very brief flashback scene in my WIP which takes place in late 19th century China, in the Hetian region. In this scene, there are two young men in their late teens/early 20s. Both are friends who are working side by side as manual laborers.

I would like to give them each a name for clarity, but realize that given names are used differently than in the West.

How should I handle this? Should I give each man a full 3 part name, and then refer to him by his surname once referenced? Or, is using the given name okay, since it is used in the exposition and not in dialogue?

ex. Gao Jian Shi. Should he be called Gao (surname), or Jian Shi, or just Jian or Shi?

Example in context:
She was dressed in a funeral gown with the fabric still attached, her hair styled with elaborate hairpins. Gao watched as....

Also, do I need to introduce a full name, or can I just introduce him as Gao and not bother giving him a full name?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The have to ask, age?

In China age matters... if they are the same age, then it's likely it's by name or by nickname.

If they are older/younger then the younger one is going to call the older one by a title such as Older brother. "Gege", or "Ge." in Mandarin, though they aren't likely to speak Mandarin, as was pointed out by Little Ming, so, you could simply use "Older Brother."

Also adding to the nickname pile, for males, you can also use "Ah Shi".

=P Not professing to be an expert, but just noticed a few little gaps I thought the experts could expound upon.

Cornelius Gault said:

IMHO: Asian names are FAMILY_NAME + FIRST_NAME. So, for Gao Jian Shi, Gao is the family name and Jian Shi is the first and middle name (I can't speak to how they might handle middle names and nicknames). It would also be Mr. Gao, not Mr. Shi, if that came up in a U.S. conversation.

Click to expand...

Technically it's not middle and first name... it's usually, but not always, generational and personal name. Korean names also work like that in some cases too.

So the generational name means all of the males would have that name part for a generation. (or all the children depending on the character.) Sometimes it was determined off of books and by surname, so it was strict and rotational (I should note this changed over time, so you'd have to research).

There isn't such a thing really as "middle name" in the same sense as the Western... It's kinda like saying that Annabelle has a middle name and it's Belle. Uhh... no. That's her full given name.

SURNAME+GIVEN NAME

GIVEN NAME (mostly, but not always)=GENERATIONAL NAME+PERSONAL NAME. (order may be mixed in some cases, so that the generational name goes second, instead of first.)

I would introduce them the first time by his full name, possibly including a "meaning", as a lot of Asian names may have a meaning (you can probably look online and find some good names/meanings for your characters). After that, you have to decide if you want to call him Jian, Shi or Jian-Shi, all of which *might* be correct.

Click to expand...

Use full name with introductions, not just given name. If the name meaning is important, then bring it up. (Following the conventions of Amy Tan, etc.)

I don't know if the above "name order" holds true for people from India, Africa, etc, but I have conversed with Asians about the topic. One individual's name was Yu Xin - Xin is what he was called on a normal basis, not Yu.

Click to expand...

Doesn't hold true in India (if you go with all the religions I know of in India). SE Asia--there weren't surnames for the longest time in some parts, such as Thailand. This is mostly East Asia rather than the rest. Surnames, in general, are always later inventions over given names, and usually become more similar such as Smith, over time.

Africa, the continent, has a lot of tribes, but from light research of what I did find, surnames generally were not present until the Europeans went and arbitrarily split the continent. Surnames, in general, were rare, so many surnames turn out to be European and forced... there are some native, but it's really difficult to find them. Varies by tribe and language, obviously. (Exclude Nigeria from the forced statement.)

Surname first, as far as I know, holds true for Korea, Japan, China (Han at least...). I'm not 100% sure about Mongolia, but I believe it's true.

I should also note that if your character *doesn't* use Mandarin, then the name will be different than any Mandarin name and you should use the local regionality in order to determine the sound and the name.

I'm not a particular expert on China, BTW, but I have read a lot about East Asia and am Korean, plus know some things here and there. I strongly defer, though.

LHGalloway said:

When I was studying Mandarin, my teacher was very adamant about the use of titles when addressing people. I got the impression that it is a real faux pas to call someone by their given name (especially an older person, even on friendly terms). She mentioned that even husbands and wives will use titles with each other! I may be over generalizing or misunderstanding the context? I would imagine that younger people are more flexible about these things due to cross-cultural influences?

Click to expand...

Well, yes. It is common to refer to people by their relationship to you, or "title." But it's not as formal as it might seem in English. For example, my parents do call each other "Husband" and "Wife" but it's not considered formal, it's just the way the language works. My married cousins when referring to each other in English, use given names, but when speaking in Chinese use Husband and Wife. But again, it's not considered formal.

As for siblings, you call an older sibling their relation to yourself, ex. Older Brother, or Older Sister. But for younger siblings you usually call them by given name in whatever combination of characters you want.

LHGalloway said:

In my narrative, I now use the surnames Gao and Duan, without giving full names. The men rarely refer to each other directly, since it is an action-based flashback about an event that took place a few decades before. One of the men is telling this story to my (French) protag in America, and it is presented in third person.

Below is a random example:

Do the names seem awkward in this context? Most of my intended readers probably won't know the difference, but I want to be as authentic as possible, kwim?

Click to expand...

It's fine. Really. Unless you plan to go into detail that these are their surnames, but they are roughly the same age group and have known each other for a long time, and thus can call each other whatever they want, therefore calling themselves by their respective surnames is acceptable in this context.... I really think you are over-thinking this.

...since it seems stupid to make a new thread about Chinese names when this one is on the first page, can I step in here to ask about more modern names? I'll wait for permission before asking so I don't derail the thread too much.

Come on in -- we won't bite (much)!

Samsonet said:

...since it seems stupid to make a new thread about Chinese names when this one is on the first page, can I step in here to ask about more modern names? I'll wait for permission before asking so I don't derail the thread too much.

Click to expand...

What's your question?

Samsonet said:

...since it seems stupid to make a new thread about Chinese names when this one is on the first page, can I step in here to ask about more modern names? I'll wait for permission before asking so I don't derail the thread too much.

Click to expand...

Of course! And thanks for keeping it tidy.