France, outraged at NSA spying, is doing it too.

Alessandra Kelley · Jul 5, 2013

Sigh.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/w...s-collecting-data-newspaper-reveals.html?_r=0

PARIS — Days after President François Hollande sternly told the United States to stop spying on its allies, the newspaper Le Monde disclosed on Thursday that France has its own large program of data collection, which sweeps up nearly all the data transmissions, including telephone calls, e-mails and social media activity, that come in and out of France.

Le Monde reported that the General Directorate for External Security does the same kind of data collection as the American National Security Agency and the British GCHQ, but does so without clear legal authority.

alleycat · Jul 5, 2013

Other countries spy? What a surprise.

dfwtinman · Jul 5, 2013

I suppose one small irony is that French Intel would sweep up everything on it citizens but pass on scooping up Snowden.

J.S.F. · Jul 5, 2013

What else is new? I read that some Latin American embassy had been bugged by the British and that they just discovered the bugs when they were rewiring the system. The more things change...

regdog · Jul 5, 2013

Does anyone really believe there is a government out there that doesn't spy on its enemies, but its allies, and its own citizens as well?

dfwtinman · Jul 5, 2013

regdog said:
Does anyone really believe there is a government out there that doesn't spy on its enemies, but its allies, and its own citizens as well?

Well, American spying only goes as far back as... Nathan Hale?

(and to be fair, Major John André has been called the "British Nathan Hale" (by 'Mericans). He tried to buy the surrender of West Point from Benedict Arnold. Cheeky bugger.

/derail

Hmm. So, who was the world's first spy?

(The Serpent sorta turned Adam and Eve to his side, but not sure he gleaned any actionable intel)

Williebee · Jul 5, 2013

Spies in Ancient Greece:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/643204?uid=3739656&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102508230157

It's not a new process. And, I dare say, even with the exposures, it's not going to stop.

Zoombie · Jul 5, 2013

Actually, I think if we had some better spies than some horrible things in human history might have been averted. Imagine if we had enough intelligence to realize the Missile Gap was a delusion and that we didn't need to build 10 bazillion nukes.

That doesn't mean I particularly like or trust spies, Burn Notice aside. And I certainly don't like the government spying on us, the citizens.

RichardGarfinkle · Jul 5, 2013

Here's Sun-Tzu on spying.
http://suntzusaid.com/book/13

Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, is the height of inhumanity.

Kaiser-Kun · Jul 5, 2013

I heard the uk had some dude who was a spy and he was cool. Maybe Mr. Bean.

Haggis · Jul 5, 2013

Zoombie said:
Actually, I think if we had some better spies than some horrible things in human history might have been averted. Imagine if we had enough intelligence to realize the Missile Gap was a delusion and that we didn't need to build 10 bazillion nukes.

That doesn't mean I particularly like or trust spies, Burn Notice aside. And I certainly don't like the government spying on us, the citizens.

[derail]
We actually did have enough intelligence to know the Missile Gap was a myth. It wasn't much more than a made-up political campaign tool.

A presidential news conference had already been scheduled for Feb. 8 and, predictably, White House correspondents asked Kennedy about the disappearing gap: “It would be premature to reach a judgment as to whether there is a gap or was no gap,” he replied.

He was lying. He knew there was no gap. He had been told so by Central Intelligence Agency briefers during the campaign. On the day before he became president, Kennedy was told by his predecessor, Dwight Eisenhower, that there was no missile gap. The United States had a huge advantage, said Eisenhower, “and one invulnerable weapon, Polaris.” These were the nuclear missiles aboard United States Navy submarines in the oceans off the coasts of the Soviet Union.

[/derail]

AncientEagle · Jul 5, 2013

I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

dfwtinman · Jul 5, 2013

RichardGarfinkle said:
Here's Sun-Tzu on spying.
http://suntzusaid.com/book/13

A brilliantly succinct example of the Art of Deception:

"Kill with a borrowed knife"

(借刀殺人／借刀杀人, Jiè dāo shā rén)

---The Thirty-Six Stratagems, The Book Of Qi

Chase · Jul 5, 2013

AncientEagle said:
I'm shocked, shocked, I tell you!!!

I love it. Perfect image of the current French games: In Casablanca, Rick asks on what grounds Vichy turncoat Captain Renault can close the Café Americain. Renault pretends to be shocked “that gambling is going on in here,” while accepting his winnings from a café croupier.

In a single sentence, the two-faced Frenchman says, “Thank you very much; everyone out at once!”

Kaiser-Kun · Jul 5, 2013

Maxinquaye said:
So, French, Sami and Gay. What does that make me? Huh?

Cheese-eating surrender monkey.

Maxinquaye · Jul 5, 2013

I guess I hit the jackpot in the Anglo-phile moral turpitude division. *shrug*

missesdash · Jul 5, 2013

Maxinquaye said:
So my genes make me two-faced, huh? I am born with the original sin of being quarter French.

Nice to know. I'm part Sami too. That's the indigenous population of Scandinavia. I am sure that affects my moral status somehow too.

If I were Jewish or black, how would that affect me?

I am gay though.

So, French, Sami and Gay. What does that make me? Huh?

Someone's never seen Casblanca eh

Kaiser-Kun · Jul 5, 2013

I prefer to think of you as a Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot.

Chase · Jul 5, 2013

missesdash said:
Someone's never seen Casblanca eh

I do apologize for that. Got carried away with a favorite cinema: Casablanca.

J.S.F. · Jul 5, 2013

Williebee said:
Spies in Ancient Greece:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/643204?uid=3739656&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21102508230157

It's not a new process. And, I dare say, even with the exposures, it's not going to stop.

---

Of course it ain't.

In an add-on to my previous post of a Latin American embassy being spied on, it was Ecuador claiming their London embassy had been bugged. My bad for not saying so earlier on. (Check CNN or the Guardian--London--for the reports).

Shadow Dragon · Jul 5, 2013

regdog said:
Does anyone really believe there is a government out there that doesn't spy on its enemies, but its allies, and its own citizens as well?

Keeping a close eye on allies makes sense. Nearly as much so as keeping an eye on enemies. Remember, allies don't stay allies forever, and the same is true for enemies. History is a never ending cycle of former friends fighting and former enemies working together.

benbradley · Jul 5, 2013

With all this spy stuff coming out I'm surprised I haven't heard any recent discussion of Echelon. It was really big conspiracy-theory type stuff, officially denied, etc., in the 1990s, though a 2001 report from a European Parliament committee claims to verify its existence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/Echelon

Echelon is an officially unacknowledged U.S.-led global spy network that operates an automated system for the interception and relay of electronic communications. Monitored transmissions are said to include up to 3 billion communications daily, including all the telephone calls, e-mail messages, faxes, satellite transmissions, and Internet downloads of both public and private organizations and citizens worldwide.

France, outraged at NSA spying, is doing it too.

Sophipygian

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Red fish, blue fish...

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Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

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Nurture Phoenixes

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Old kid, no need to be gentle.

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That cheeky buggerer

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