technically speaking...

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Reverend Ben

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So this is just a hypothetical question;)
If you were to say, wake up one morning, and you get a knock on the door, and you from five years in the future is there.
After you are done changing your pants because of the brick you just shit, you talk for a while. The you from the future pulls out a book, and says you wrote it. They tell you what agent you used, and all the publisher and everything are there in the book.
If you were to then copy the book verbatim and submit it to the agent or publisher specified...

Did you write the book, or is that plagiarism?
 

King Neptune

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I hae not written that book, but I may. If I do, then I will bring it back more than five years, and it certainly will not be plagiarism.
 

GeorgeK

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If you have sex with your future self is that incest or masturbation?
 

Hendo

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What if someone else gives you the book and then tells you that you wrote it with no proof?!? Does it still count as you having written it? Like in the Star Trek reboot with Mr. Scott's equation. :e2shrug:
 

Torgo

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What if someone else gives you the book and then tells you that you wrote it with no proof?!? Does it still count as you having written it? Like in the Star Trek reboot with Mr. Scott's equation. :e2shrug:

Well, that's the interesting question. The information seems to have arisen out of the time loop without anyone actually having to think of it. It's one of the more interesting paradoxes for fiction - the best treatment of it is in THE ANUBIS GATES, I think.
 

benbenberi

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When I was writing my dissertation I had wishful fantasies of that happening. Never did...
 

NeuroFizz

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It would still be your intellectual property. However, submitting it 5 years earlier does not guarantee it would get the same reception it gets in its proper day. Maybe slush pile now, publication five years from now, and burned in a giant bonfire by slack-jawed pinheads 10 years beyond.
 

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Otherwise known as the information paradox.

EDIT: Oh, actually Wiki calls it the Bootstrap paradox.

Interesting Wikipedia article, but it is very incomplete. (Something I have found is usually the case with any Wikipedia article about SFF.) The "Bootstrap Paradox" only exist in a single timeline universe. In the "Alternate Universe" theory of time travel the "you" coming with the (in this case) book comes from an alternate future timeline, where you actually wrote the book, so the book doesn't actually come from nowhere.
Of course there's almost infinitely many alternative universes with the book scenario (ignoring the time travel for the sake of argument). One universe where you never finished the book, oe where it tanked, one where someone else wrote the story before you and you were a plagiarist, and x number of possible publishers, and so on...
And even with the time travel, you will have the option of not listening to your future self. You may see that there's a publisher who'll give you a better deal, and you might even see errors in the book you are given (since it is not really your work).

Alternate universes, sometimes called parallel universes, thinking may be a bit complex in some cases, but it does away with all time travel paradoxes and substitutes them with alternate versions of reality where any "paradoxical" event takes place, the "paradoxes" doesn't exist in the same reality.
I would argue that the "Bootstrap paradox" is really lazy plotting, and doesn't work at all, except with the alternate universes explenation. If you go back in your own timeline and give yourself a book, that book will never have been written in a single timeline universe. It would only work in that particualar case if your future self had actually stolen the book from someone else.
-Which neatly brings me back to the answer to the OP's question; Yes, it would be plagiarism in a single timeline universe.
 

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Interesting Wikipedia article, but it is very incomplete. (Something I have found is usually the case with any Wikipedia article about SFF.) The "Bootstrap Paradox" only exist in a single timeline universe. In the "Alternate Universe" theory of time travel the "you" coming with the (in this case) book comes from an alternate future timeline, where you actually wrote the book, so the book doesn't actually come from nowhere.
Of course there's almost infinitely many alternative universes with the book scenario (ignoring the time travel for the sake of argument). One universe where you never finished the book, oe where it tanked, one where someone else wrote the story before you and you were a plagiarist, and x number of possible publishers, and so on...
And even with the time travel, you will have the option of not listening to your future self. You may see that there's a publisher who'll give you a better deal, and you might even see errors in the book you are given (since it is not really your work).

Alternate universes, sometimes called parallel universes, thinking may be a bit complex in some cases, but it does away with all time travel paradoxes and substitutes them with alternate versions of reality where any "paradoxical" event takes place, the "paradoxes" doesn't exist in the same reality.
I would argue that the "Bootstrap paradox" is really lazy plotting, and doesn't work at all, except with the alternate universes explenation. If you go back in your own timeline and give yourself a book, that book will never have been written in a single timeline universe. It would only work in that particualar case if your future self had actually stolen the book from someone else.
-Which neatly brings me back to the answer to the OP's question; Yes, it would be plagiarism in a single timeline universe.

I have always thought of this paradox as implying a single-timeline universe, and the fictional treatments of it usually deal with the inevitability of the known facts coming about - the narrative suspense comes from not knowing how they'll show up. ANUBIS GATES is a good example, but even better is Philip K Dick's PAYCHECK.

Here's the thing, though: when I was studying philosophy, though, I got to thinking about the free will implications. What if you had a perfectly accurate biography of yourself sent back through the past (we stipulate that the book is 'predictive', i.e. every proposition in it is unambiguously true, and refers to events in the past of the book's author, your future.) It would seem that, with free will, you are free to falsify those predictions. It says I had poached eggs for breakfast, so I fry them. The granularity of the predictions gets around the usual fictional dodge in which the prophecies can be brought about in unexpected ways. (It's hard to poach eggs by accident.)

It certainly feels like I could break the prediction, just in terms of role-playing it in my head. That would certainly imply that there isn't a single timeline.

The theory we're arguing against if we're talking free will is determinism, in which one's actions are determined by some set of causal factors interacting with the complex and devilishly handsome mechanism that is myself, but in a theoretically predictable way. The predictive book could have been the product of a Laplacean calculator at the beginning of time, or the omniscient mind of God at any point, says determinism. And the existence of the book, and our knowledge of it, becomes just another factor in the set of causes. Determinism still applies - I fried the eggs because the book caused me to.

(I like poached eggs much more than fried eggs. The only time I'm going to fry myself an egg is if I wanted to prove a point to myself about free will, which itself is a causal factor.)

Still breaks the single timeline though, eh? The poached-egg future can't exist, so the book wasn't predictive, so the whole thing is impossible if my thought-experiment about frying them is true. What I started to think was that, no, we don't have free will, unless there's some kind of randomizer at work in our heads (this is usually the point where the word 'quantum' makes its first appearance.) I actually like the idea that we're deterministic beings, because it means there are reasons for the way I act. It's surely better to be a weathervane than an Pop-O-Matic.

So yes, philosophically, I think what this paradox tells us is (a) free will is an illusion we're probably better off without and (b) time travel needs multiple timelines to avoid paradoxes. But fictionally? Alternate-timeline time-travel stories lack a shape. A paradox is an interesting shape that implies story; an alternate-timeline world that avoids paradox is just another place with less-convenient transport links.
 

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Torgo- That was pretty sweet.

YES! Paradoxes are story shaped!
They are interesting because you have to think about them. It's like looking at a mobius strip. The eye is drawn into a continuous pattern, and it is therefore interesting, because you can't unconsciously find an easy place to remove your attention from the phenomenon. (Unless someone taped it together really poorly.)
So with the time travel story. Within the confines of simplicity for understanding's sake, the time travel story with the single timeline universe is interesting because you can't unconsciously pull your mind out of the loop. Provided you don't just get bored and wander off, you are either forced to keep thinking about it, or come off of the default 'unconscious' setting.

Thanks for helping me come to understand that.

A word about paradoxes. Here's the thing with the information paradox as I understand it.
1) They don't exist without a single timeline universe. And frankly, the single timeline universe is pretty unbelievable if you sit down and really think about it. Although it makes for a good story, just like other imaginary things.
2)Even in a single timeline universe, the information paradox doesn't have to be a paradox. It just counters materially deterministic assumptions. If the book arises into being of itself, with no original creator, that is not a paradox. It just implies that the book has either a) been created outside of existence (like an object dropped into a pool of water, creating distortion from the water's pov), or b) arisen spontaneously from the single time line (like a ringlet in a strand of hair), pointing out a fundamental non-linearity of the single timeline.

Whew! that was a long sentence.
 

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Alternate-timeline time-travel stories lack a shape. A paradox is an interesting shape that implies story; an alternate-timeline world that avoids paradox is just another place with less-convenient transport links.

I have to disagree with that. Single timeline time travel does not imply story, it's a "get out of a plot-corner"-free card. (That is the main criticism of New Who -at least plot-wise.) In my opinion a paradox is a plot-hole. Not that I don't enjoy those kinds of stories, but it's really a form of magic handwaving. Of course, there's stories that uses the paradox, and what consequences it has, as a plot point. But I find most of those has to resort to handwaving too, or take the Doctor Who route of explaining why something that is impossible is still possible because of [whatever excuse that stands in for "the story needed it to be resolved"].

That being said, I'm more into Alternate History than Time Travel SF, and all Alternate History is really Alternate Timeline (Harry Turtledove's Guns of the South even uses time travel to set up the alternate timeline).
 

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Reverend Ben, please read the forum guidelines before posting here again.

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