Article about female writers and motherhood

sarahdalton · Jun 13, 2013

I've caught this argument halfway through, I think, but had to share because as I read it the red mist descended. Zadie Smith hits back at Lauren Sandler for suggesting that women should only have one child if they want to remain a successful writer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jun/13/zadie-smith-one-child-career

First of all, I'm just scratching my head at such a ridiculous statement. The thought that anyone should judge a woman's ability based on the number of children she has... it's just so misogynist I don't even know where to begin.

And it reminds me of the article suggesting that Maeve Binchy would have been a better writer if she'd had children http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/9446816/If-Maeve-Binchy-had-been-a-mother-....html

I mean, is this a topic that even warrants discussion? I feel very uncomfortable about speculating whether anyone would be a better or worse writer based on whether they have children and how many children they have. I think it's pretty much the height of sexism, especially as it seemed mostly directed to women.

Thoughts?

willietheshakes · Jun 13, 2013

sarahdalton said:
I've caught this argument halfway through, I think, but had to share because as I read it the red mist descended. Zadie Smith hits back at Lauren Sandler for suggesting that women should only have one child if they want to remain a successful writer: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jun/13/zadie-smith-one-child-career

First of all, I'm just scratching my head at such a ridiculous statement. The thought that anyone should judge a woman's ability based on the number of children she has... it's just so misogynist I don't even know where to begin.

And it reminds me of the article suggesting that Marve Binchy would have been a better mother if she'd had children http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/9446816/If-Maeve-Binchy-had-been-a-mother-....html

I mean, is this a topic that even warrants discussion? I feel very uncomfortable about speculating whether anyone would be a better or worse writer based on whether they have children and how many children they have. I think it's pretty much the height of sexism, especially as it seemed mostly directed to women.

Thoughts?

Surely it's not THAT much of a stretch to suggest that Binchy would have been a better mother, had she had children...

Paprika · Jun 13, 2013

willietheshakes said:
Surely it's not THAT much of a stretch to suggest that Binchy would have been a better mother, had she had children...

I know it's a joke, but the article was focussing on whether someone has to experience A to write about A. Which is a discussion that has many sides. Would you ask a blind person to describe the colors of a scenery?

I don't think women should be judged by the amount of children they have (even if that is 0). Neither should men. Unless it's a job that has a lot to do with children, in that case it's debatable. Should a story guru have written a good story? Should a minister of family have had a family?

sarahdalton · Jun 13, 2013

willietheshakes said:
Surely it's not THAT much of a stretch to suggest that Binchy would have been a better mother, had she had children...

Oops, edited.

willietheshakes · Jun 13, 2013

Paprika said:
I know it's a joke, but the article was focussing on whether someone has to experience A to write about A. Which is a discussion that has many sides. Would you ask a blind person to describe the colors of a scenery?

I don't think women should be judged by the amount of children they have (even if that is 0). Neither should men. Unless it's a job that has a lot to do with children, in that case it's debatable. Should a story guru have written a good story? Should a minister of family have had a family?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you missed something in my post.

sarahdalton said:
Oops, edited.

But you didn't.

sarahdalton · Jun 13, 2013

willietheshakes said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you missed something in my post.

But you didn't.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Unless it was the name spelling, which I've now amended.

Mr Flibble · Jun 13, 2013

I'm not going to look on the grounds that I'll probably end up chewing the wall or something.

Looks like I'm going to have to cull one of my kids then, doesn't it? Or, perhaps, the assertion there should be only one is just full of shit. Yeah, I reckon that's it.

willietheshakes · Jun 13, 2013

sarahdalton said:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Unless it was the name spelling, which I've now amended.

This is the last time I try for a little gentle fun in the morning... well, at least today.

No, you didn't miss anything in my post - you corrected the slip of "mother" to "writer".

I don't think Paprika noticed said slip, hence the post before yours, which I responded to above the note to you...

sarahdalton · Jun 13, 2013

willietheshakes said:
This is the last time I try for a little gentle fun in the morning... well, at least today.

No, you didn't miss anything in my post - you corrected the slip of "mother" to "writer".

I don't think Paprika noticed said slip, hence the post before yours, which I responded to above the note to you...

Ahh, I get you now. It's 4:30 here and I've been editing all day. My brain has slowed...

dolores haze · Jun 13, 2013

A one-child policy for female writers? How silly. Doesn't she know you can get the kids to do all the chores while you're working on your latest opus?

*cracks whip*

Seriously, though. It used to be much harder when I had a sixty hour a week job, two in diapers, and not enough time to write. Had to make some changes and adjustments to ensure I had the time and energy to do all the things I needed to.

Paprika · Jun 13, 2013

willietheshakes said:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you missed something in my post.

Your joke was that sarahdalton wrote "mother" instead of "writer". I got that. That's why I said, "I know it's a joke". I guess I wasn't clear about that.

Anyway, back to topic... though, I don't know if there is much to discuss?

sarahdalton · Jun 13, 2013

To me, it's the fact that people still have an opinion on what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies. From other women insisting you've not known love until you've had children, to those who insist you can't have a successful career if you have too many children, it just shows how the world, including the literary world, is still behind the times.

heza · Jun 13, 2013

Paprika said:
I know it's a joke, but the article was focussing on whether someone has to experience A to write about A. Which is a discussion that has many sides. Would you ask a blind person to describe the colors of a scenery?

Actually, if you're talking about the old Binchy article, that's not what it was about, in my interpretation.

That article seemed to suggest that Binchy would have been a better writer overall if she had experienced the emotional depth that came from being a mother and that her books would have been better if she hadn't limited herself to romantic love or friendship but instead, had focused on the mother-child relationship.

It was also about how women who get awards for writing are women who don't have children--i.e., women who have children are better writers but don't have the luxury of focusing on writing to get it to award-quality. She also said something to the effect that these women don't count when it comes to lauding women writers because, not having children, they're basically the same as men in emotional experience and responsibilities that take time away from writing.

But it wasn't that Binchy was trying to write about motherhood and failed because she was never a mother. it was that Binchy was never a mother and so didn't dig deeply enough to write about motherhood and, thus, failed (in the sense that the author supposed Binchy could have been much better).

My personal assessment is that's all bullshit. Many writers here write good books even though they have a load of children and many writers who don't have children can't seem to make the time to write anyway. Many writers who don't have children write more emotionally than writers who do... and vice versa. Having or not having children doesn't determine your quality as a writer in general--though it might mean you have to get creative with your schedule and find some outside help... but, that's true of lots of time-intensive commitments.

JimmyB27 · Jun 13, 2013

What if you have one child and a dog? What about two dogs? Cats?
What's the child quota for male writers?

JimmyB27 · Jun 13, 2013

Paprika said:
I know it's a joke, but the article was focussing on whether someone has to experience A to write about A. Which is a discussion that has many sides. Would you ask a blind person to describe the colors of a scenery?

I don't think women should be judged by the amount of children they have (even if that is 0). Neither should men. Unless it's a job that has a lot to do with children, in that case it's debatable. Should a story guru have written a good story? Should a minister of family have had a family?

I'm reasonably certain that GRR Martin has never encountered a dragon, nor even lopped someone's head off with a greatsword, but that didn't stop him writing ASOIAF.

Buffysquirrel · Jun 13, 2013

I don't think my thoughts would meet AW standards.

heza · Jun 13, 2013

JimmyB27 said:
What if you have one child and a dog? What about two dogs? Cats?
What's the child quota for male writers?

Male writers can have 20 children. If you have two dogs, you're allotted an extra child because the dogs will team up and raise it. It might be feral, but you'll get more books written.

ETA: Also, you'll be able to freely write about feral children. Bonus. :Thumbs:

Mr Flibble · Jun 13, 2013

sarahdalton said:
To me, it's the fact that people still have an opinion on what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies. From other women insisting you've not known love until you've had children, to those who insist you can't have a successful career if you have too many children, it just shows how the world, including the literary world, is still behind the times.

Yup. Not often you see 'Well a man can't be successful Dad and X'. Though I'll note I know a few successful stay-at-home Dad-writers (with more than one kid!)

Thing is, having kids means adjustments no matter what your job. It'd be harder doing a 9-5 with two toddlers than writing, because if you write, you can arrange your working time to suit you best, rather than having to be out of the house at X time.

And if it's time that's the problem -- you don't need kids for a time sink. It's also perfectly possibly to be a good parent (whichever gender) and have a good career. You just need to think ahead a bit, and perfect time management (or writing in 15 minute sprints!). When I started pratting about with writing, I had two kids under 3, a job and was taking a degree. I still managed to write 400k that first year...(iirc - it was a lot anyway)

Paprika · Jun 13, 2013

heza said:
Actually, if you're talking about the old Binchy article, that's not what it was about, in my interpretation.

That article seemed to suggest that Binchy would have been a better writer overall if she had experienced the emotional depth that came from being a mother and that her books would have been better if she hadn't limited herself to romantic love or friendship but instead, had focused on the mother-child relationship.

It was also about how women who get awards for writing are women who don't have children--i.e., women who have children are better writers but don't have the luxury of focusing on writing to get it to award-quality. She also said something to the effect that these women don't count when it comes to lauding women writers because, not having children, they're basically the same as men in emotional experience and responsibilities that take time away from writing.

But it wasn't that Binchy was trying to write about motherhood and failed because she was never a mother. it was that Binchy was never a mother and so didn't dig deeply enough to write about motherhood and, thus, failed (in the sense that the author supposed Binchy could have been much better).

My personal assessment is that's all bullshit. Many writers here write good books even though they have a load of children and many writers who don't have children can't seem to make the time to write anyway. Many writers who don't have children write more emotionally than writers who do... and vice versa. Having or not having children doesn't determine your quality as a writer in general--though it might mean you have to get creative with your schedule and find some outside help... but, that's true of lots of time-intensive commitments.

Ok, I didn't get that. Thank you.
I hear that kind of thinking a lot, especially concerning romance in general. Someone I know said that romance makes every story better. Every single one.

I'm reasonably certain that GRR Martin has never encountered a dragon, nor even lopped someone's head off with a greatsword, but that didn't stop him writing ASOIAF.

Nonexistent Stuff isn't really fair, is it? But when it comes to chopping someone's head off, I'm sure someone would be able to complain about the verisimilitude. Not to mention those who actually lost their heads once.

Rhoda Nightingale · Jun 13, 2013

Mr Flibble said:
Yup. Not often you see 'Well a man can't be successful Dad and X'. Though I'll note I know a few successful stay-at-home Dad-writers (with more than one kid!)

Yeah, this. I love how it's never assumed that men can't have children and be good writers at the same time--it stems from the assumption that they aren't required to stay at home and be parents. That's what mothers are for. :Shrug:

Nonuw · Jun 13, 2013

It reminds me of my boss (in an engineering and environmental field) telling me that the reason I hadn't got a promotion (while other men with less experience than I had been promoted over me) was because I had taken the time to have a baby. My boss is a middle-aged lady with two little girls of her own.
The irony still makes me shudder...

heza · Jun 13, 2013

Nonuw said:
It reminds me of my boss (in an engineering and environmental field) telling me that the reason I hadn't got a promotion (while other men with less experience than I had been promoted over me) was because I had taken the time to have a baby. My boss is a middle-aged lady with two little girls of her own.
The irony still makes me shudder...

Yeah, it really sucks when it seems like we're fighting each other when we should be fighting the patriarchy that creates this kind of issue.

Phaeal · Jun 13, 2013

Now I'm confuzzled. Will I be a more successful writer if I don't have ANY kids? Or will that turn me into Jane Austen?

Hmm. Sounds like a win-win situation.

For what it's worth, people who read my stuff always assume I have kids. Which I don't, but that hasn't stopped me from working with a lot of parent-kid relationships.

As for the articles, WOMEN! We have plenty of MEN telling us what we should or shouldn't do with our lady-bits. Muse about your own life and work if you want, but to say anyone else would have been better or worse at whatever if they'd only used their lady-bits THIS WAY (generally "my way") -- well, talk about presumptuous. Damn.

gothicangel · Jun 13, 2013

heza said:
Actually, if you're talking about the old Binchy article, that's not what it was about, in my interpretation.

That article seemed to suggest that Binchy would have been a better writer overall if she had experienced the emotional depth that came from being a mother and that her books would have been better if she hadn't limited herself to romantic love or friendship but instead, had focused on the mother-child relationship.

It was also about how women who get awards for writing are women who don't have children--i.e., women who have children are better writers but don't have the luxury of focusing on writing to get it to award-quality. She also said something to the effect that these women don't count when it comes to lauding women writers because, not having children, they're basically the same as men in emotional experience and responsibilities that take time away from writing.

But it wasn't that Binchy was trying to write about motherhood and failed because she was never a mother. it was that Binchy was never a mother and so didn't dig deeply enough to write about motherhood and, thus, failed (in the sense that the author supposed Binchy could have been much better).

My personal assessment is that's all bullshit. Many writers here write good books even though they have a load of children and many writers who don't have children can't seem to make the time to write anyway. Many writers who don't have children write more emotionally than writers who do... and vice versa. Having or not having children doesn't determine your quality as a writer in general--though it might mean you have to get creative with your schedule and find some outside help... but, that's true of lots of time-intensive commitments.

The particularly cruel truth behind these comments, is that writers like Mauve Binchy and Hilary Mantel is down to infertility, and not a choice to remain childless.

Andrhia · Jun 13, 2013

In a Q&A sometime last year, someone asked me how my children inspire my work. The problem is... they don't. Not at all. I mean, I've done a few projects for children, and in that case I take into consideration whether or not I think my kids and their friends would like it. But as a whole, my identity as a writer is wholly separate from my identity as a parent.

It drives me crazy that anyone would just assume that these two parts of my identity have to be related. Why does being a mother have to consume and color your whole existence? One might well ask: "How does your love for sunshine inspire your writing?" "How does your crush on Alistair from Dragon Age inspire your writing?" "How does your favorite pizza inspire your writing?" Gah.

Article about female writers and motherhood

sarahdalton

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Paprika

sarahdalton

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

sarahdalton

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

sarahdalton

dolores haze

international guttersnipe

Paprika

sarahdalton

heza

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Buffysquirrel

heza

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Paprika

Rhoda Nightingale

Vampire Junkie

Nonuw

taking time to smell the flowers

heza

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

gothicangel

Toughen up.

Andrhia