My MC is in a raging river. He's a good swimmer, trying to help his friend who is drowing and can't swim. Is it plausible that my MC is trying to help his friend, but the friend panics and trys to pull my MC under? And so, the MC has to let go of his friend, otherwise he would drown himself? Does that sound logistically possible? thanks in advance for your expertise!
trying to save someone who is drowning, can they pull you under? how?
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Yes, it happens more than one would like. That's why one is taught to approach a drowning person from behind. The drowning person sometimes tires to climb on the potential savior, climbing as if climbing a tree, and that puts the saver under water and sometimes leads to drowning. Another method that is taught is the solid punch to the side of the jaw. There probably are better ways to punch, but it's better than nothing.
This isn't directly related to the situation you describe, but this article about drowning may be helpful. http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...o_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html
The short answer is pretty much yes. People get panicked when they're drowning (or even when they think they're drowning), so even someone smaller than the MC could drag him under, or thrash around, or grab at the MC's arm so tightly that he can't swim or do anything else.
Don't know if the MC is a trained lifeguard or anything like that, but I imagine that he would be pretty panicked too, which might make for poor decision making. Deciding to let go of someone who is a friend and is drowning and is in a raging river is not as easy as it sounds.
Don't know if the MC is a trained lifeguard or anything like that, but I imagine that he would be pretty panicked too, which might make for poor decision making. Deciding to let go of someone who is a friend and is drowning and is in a raging river is not as easy as it sounds.
When I did some lifeguard training (many moons ago) we were taught that if that starts to happen to us, to swim down rather than trying to get away, as then the drowning person can't cling anymore without getting pulled under. Apparently it's quite common.
Yes, unfortunately. A drowning person panics and will grab onto anything that floats, including you. They tell you that in Red Cross lifesaving class. Luckily, I never had to deal with that situation in real life.
In the situation you describe, it would be much harder to approach the victim. The usual tactic of diving beneath the victim and coming up behind is best suited for calm water, such as a lake or swimming pool. In a swift current, there'd be no guarantee of coming up in the right place, and the victim might get turned around, making the maneuver pointless.
Without any training, your MC could easily get into trouble. No one could fault him for making the attempt and failing.
In the situation you describe, it would be much harder to approach the victim. The usual tactic of diving beneath the victim and coming up behind is best suited for calm water, such as a lake or swimming pool. In a swift current, there'd be no guarantee of coming up in the right place, and the victim might get turned around, making the maneuver pointless.
Without any training, your MC could easily get into trouble. No one could fault him for making the attempt and failing.
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I read or heard somewhere that, say in a man-overboard situation, the rescuer watches and waits for the drowning person to stop flailing before he jumps in.
I've been in this situation. I was about 13. Some damn father let his little daughter (about 5?) go swimming in a local lake. She dog paddled near this platform that I was laying on. I lay watching her knowing damn well what was going to happen. Sure enough, under she went.
I've never had life saving training, but I couldn't just lay there. So I jumped (holding my nose, of course). I swam out to her and held her up.
It's not that the victim drags under their rescuer, but the victim climbs on top of the rescuer. That's what she did. At 13, I was pretty small. Down I went with her on top. I had to fight to push or kick her off me.
Luckily, two older boys had been nearby and they ended up getting her off me (and saving me).
(End of story: I hung on the ladder to the platform for many minutes trying not to throw up. I have never been so wiped out in my entire life. Climbing the roughly 8 steps to the platform took every ounce of strength. I collapsed on the platform. One of the boys told me the dad wanted to talk to me (Daddy stood on the shore). I couldn't care less what that asshole had to say. I couldn't move anyway. No telling how long I lay there getting the strength to get back in the water to go to the camper.)
I've never had life saving training, but I couldn't just lay there. So I jumped (holding my nose, of course). I swam out to her and held her up.
It's not that the victim drags under their rescuer, but the victim climbs on top of the rescuer. That's what she did. At 13, I was pretty small. Down I went with her on top. I had to fight to push or kick her off me.
Luckily, two older boys had been nearby and they ended up getting her off me (and saving me).
(End of story: I hung on the ladder to the platform for many minutes trying not to throw up. I have never been so wiped out in my entire life. Climbing the roughly 8 steps to the platform took every ounce of strength. I collapsed on the platform. One of the boys told me the dad wanted to talk to me (Daddy stood on the shore). I couldn't care less what that asshole had to say. I couldn't move anyway. No telling how long I lay there getting the strength to get back in the water to go to the camper.)
My situation was somewhat similar to Snowstorm's. I was an adult, and the person in trouble was a youngish child. She didn't fight me, didn't try to climb up on me, but as I tried to lift her so that her head would be out of the water, I went down so that my head was below the surface. We both made it out okay, but helping even a little person was very challenging. And that was in a pool, not raging waters. Your story seems plausible.
I was taught as a kid in poolside life-saving class that when possible, stay out of the water and offer the person in trouble the other end of a pole, and pull him out that way.
I was taught as a kid in poolside life-saving class that when possible, stay out of the water and offer the person in trouble the other end of a pole, and pull him out that way.
When I did some lifeguard training (many moons ago) we were taught that if that starts to happen to us, to swim down rather than trying to get away, as then the drowning person can't cling anymore without getting pulled under. Apparently it's quite common.
That makes sense. People tried to hold onto me, but I always managed to get loose somehow.
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Starting point is you have a very complex situation here. I don't know exactly what you mean by a "raging" river, and I don't know how "good" a swimmer the rescuer is.
First thing to understand is that experienced swimmers display drowning a lot differently then non-swimmers. A non-swimmer does not usually flail about. Instead, they swallow that first mouthful and just sort of sink, settling usually at a level with their nose right at the waterline. The way a lifeguard identifies this type of drowner is by their lack of action.
Now let's throw in a "raging" river. I'm going to assume you're meaning a rapids-type situation, with rocks and white caps. Water is probably going to be somewhat shallow, but the force of the current is so strong you can't stand up.
I'm assuming the non-swimmer falls into the river by accident. Initially you'll get some flailing and arm-waving, but within a minute, the person will be a floater, with minimal movement. The person is at the mercy of the current, and probably hitting quite a few rocks. We're going to see extensive bruising and possibly broken bones when he/she is rescued. Person is going to be spinning, so one minute facing downstream and the next facing upstream.
An experienced river swimmer will know there's no way to hold onto a person in that situation. It's hard enough to hold onto a floatation device in this type of situation. If you're in this situation (definitely you don't jump in to save someone in this situation), you position yourself upstream of the drowning person, trying to keep your head above water, and only helping the drowning person during periods of slack water or to make sure they don't get tangled in rocks or trees.
Rivers are different then lake or ocean rescues. The current both helps and hinder. (Lakes have no current and ocean currents are either in the right direction or they're not.) The downstream motion of the current enables you to float downstream and gradually work towards shore. Your goal should not be a specific place on the shore but a gradual movement towards the shore.
Probably by the time you can actually approach the drowner (only during slack water), the drowner will be unconscious. If not, they're going to be rather beaten within an inch or so of their life. Most of the fight (actually ability to climb on a swimmer) will have been beaten out of them.
Without PFDs (personal floatation device) the chances of either person surviving is not high. Rapids (which is what I'm assuming you mean by "raging") do not have a high survival right. Any rescue attempt involving going into the river needs either a period of slack water, or a line tied to the rescuer to provide the rescuer with support. Aim is critical and difficult. (You go upstream and rely on the current to reach the person -- guess wrong and you drift right by.)
I've read a couple of good river rescues. Jack London has a good one in one of his books. This is an extreme type of scene and hard to do well in a book. Watch a lot of videos set in the type of water you're thinking of. Many of these will be kayaks and rafters.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
First thing to understand is that experienced swimmers display drowning a lot differently then non-swimmers. A non-swimmer does not usually flail about. Instead, they swallow that first mouthful and just sort of sink, settling usually at a level with their nose right at the waterline. The way a lifeguard identifies this type of drowner is by their lack of action.
Now let's throw in a "raging" river. I'm going to assume you're meaning a rapids-type situation, with rocks and white caps. Water is probably going to be somewhat shallow, but the force of the current is so strong you can't stand up.
I'm assuming the non-swimmer falls into the river by accident. Initially you'll get some flailing and arm-waving, but within a minute, the person will be a floater, with minimal movement. The person is at the mercy of the current, and probably hitting quite a few rocks. We're going to see extensive bruising and possibly broken bones when he/she is rescued. Person is going to be spinning, so one minute facing downstream and the next facing upstream.
An experienced river swimmer will know there's no way to hold onto a person in that situation. It's hard enough to hold onto a floatation device in this type of situation. If you're in this situation (definitely you don't jump in to save someone in this situation), you position yourself upstream of the drowning person, trying to keep your head above water, and only helping the drowning person during periods of slack water or to make sure they don't get tangled in rocks or trees.
Rivers are different then lake or ocean rescues. The current both helps and hinder. (Lakes have no current and ocean currents are either in the right direction or they're not.) The downstream motion of the current enables you to float downstream and gradually work towards shore. Your goal should not be a specific place on the shore but a gradual movement towards the shore.
Probably by the time you can actually approach the drowner (only during slack water), the drowner will be unconscious. If not, they're going to be rather beaten within an inch or so of their life. Most of the fight (actually ability to climb on a swimmer) will have been beaten out of them.
Without PFDs (personal floatation device) the chances of either person surviving is not high. Rapids (which is what I'm assuming you mean by "raging") do not have a high survival right. Any rescue attempt involving going into the river needs either a period of slack water, or a line tied to the rescuer to provide the rescuer with support. Aim is critical and difficult. (You go upstream and rely on the current to reach the person -- guess wrong and you drift right by.)
I've read a couple of good river rescues. Jack London has a good one in one of his books. This is an extreme type of scene and hard to do well in a book. Watch a lot of videos set in the type of water you're thinking of. Many of these will be kayaks and rafters.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
An anecdote about a raging river.
When I was in college, my friend and I went on a bike ride during a warm day of an unusually warm January week. The local river was muddy and swollen from snow melt and debris. On a bet, I jumped in from a bridge overpass. The second I hit the water I knew it was a mistake. Not only was it numbingly cold, but it was fast. I'm an extremely strong swimmer, and it took everything I had to just make it to shore. Laterally, it was probably only twenty meters, but in that time, the river swept me about two hundred meters down river. I can't imagine saving a drowning person in something like that. Throw in some rapids, and it would probably be worse.
As some people have said, a drowning victim will try to use a rescuer as a flotation device. There are several escape techniques, but most involve breaking or loosening the arm hold (imagine a drowning victim wrapping the rescuers head with both arms) and going down. The last place a drowning victim wants to go is deeper in the water. I was a lifeguard through high school and college, and we always had rescue tubes we could use. Perhaps the rescuer could try to get some type of flotation device to the drowning victim.
When I was in college, my friend and I went on a bike ride during a warm day of an unusually warm January week. The local river was muddy and swollen from snow melt and debris. On a bet, I jumped in from a bridge overpass. The second I hit the water I knew it was a mistake. Not only was it numbingly cold, but it was fast. I'm an extremely strong swimmer, and it took everything I had to just make it to shore. Laterally, it was probably only twenty meters, but in that time, the river swept me about two hundred meters down river. I can't imagine saving a drowning person in something like that. Throw in some rapids, and it would probably be worse.
As some people have said, a drowning victim will try to use a rescuer as a flotation device. There are several escape techniques, but most involve breaking or loosening the arm hold (imagine a drowning victim wrapping the rescuers head with both arms) and going down. The last place a drowning victim wants to go is deeper in the water. I was a lifeguard through high school and college, and we always had rescue tubes we could use. Perhaps the rescuer could try to get some type of flotation device to the drowning victim.
completely.
people who are panicking often aren't always aware of what they are doing.
Can, and likely will.
From the drowning person's POV, they aren't actually trying to pull the person underwater. They're trying to climb, likely not processing that it's a person they're climbing at all. The rescuer starts to go under because the person they're trying to save clamps over their arms and legs, so they can't swim. And it's not always a simple matter of "letting go." To the person drowning, your rescuer will be dry land, and they won't let it get away easily. He'll likely have to shove the friend off, not just let go.
I hate using movies as a reference for something like this, but see if you can't find a clip of the training speech from "The Guardian" about the Coast Guard. One of the things they tell people to do in a water rescue is prepare to knock the person unconscious. It's much easier to dead-man drag someone to shore than to fight them the whole way.
huge thanks for these detailed replies. Just to give some background info, and maybe correct how I initially presented the scenario:
its actually 2 brothers. they are driving on a road next to a river. huge noreaster storm, its been raining for days, the river is rising. they drive over a lowlying part of the road and suddenly the the road floods. The brothers climb on the roof of the car, waiting for the fire dept rescue boat, still about 50 feet away. the car they are on begins to rock and then float in the flooded road. the brothers are tossed off the roof of the car. the older brother is only 16 but on the swim team, younger brother is autistic and can't swim. Older brother tries to rescue younger brother but ends up having to let go and younger brother drowns. older brother manages to grab hold of a tree and hang on until he is rescued.....
i like the idea of watching some of these type rescues to get ideas...
its actually 2 brothers. they are driving on a road next to a river. huge noreaster storm, its been raining for days, the river is rising. they drive over a lowlying part of the road and suddenly the the road floods. The brothers climb on the roof of the car, waiting for the fire dept rescue boat, still about 50 feet away. the car they are on begins to rock and then float in the flooded road. the brothers are tossed off the roof of the car. the older brother is only 16 but on the swim team, younger brother is autistic and can't swim. Older brother tries to rescue younger brother but ends up having to let go and younger brother drowns. older brother manages to grab hold of a tree and hang on until he is rescued.....
i like the idea of watching some of these type rescues to get ideas...
So, it would be a million times worse for the 16 year old brother to not merely lose his grip on his younger brother, so that he's pulled away by the water, but to have to actively push the boy away.
Again, he might not intend to push the boy away, but if he's being drowned by the panicking kid, he'd be desperate himself.
Again, he might not intend to push the boy away, but if he's being drowned by the panicking kid, he'd be desperate himself.
Let's look at some of this.
It's not so much about how many days it's been raining, but how much rain per hour/day.
Any predictable likelihood of the low portions of a road flooding, and the road will be closed. You need to understand the difference between a flash flood and regular flooding. A flash flood is a massive wall of water, raising water levels in a matter of minutes. Other then in the southwest, flash floods are caused by the sudden release of water due to something like a dam failure. In a flash flood situation, you're just going to go. You need to see a video of the initial flood, not the after effect to understand the force. In this situation, the car will go right with the water.
But in the situation you're describing, the water level on the road will rise steadily, but somewhat slowly. There's not much lateral force against the car. It typically arises from driving onto a section of road that is flooded, and underestimating the depth of the flooding. You get into a foot or so of water, and then your engine stalls.
Which implies they didn't bring anything with them.
From 50 feet, I can throw a line. Put the rescue boat a lot further away or get rid of it. Fifty feet below the car and they won't sink before they get to the boat. Fifty feet above the car and you do a quick run around the car and a hook. Still pretty likely to find both brothers.
This is going to give the brother some time to work in. Have him watching for logs that might work. Having the other brother being willing to go, then not, would be good technique.
No, they lose their balance and fall. Likely to be some scraping against the car. Upstream fall is more dangerous then a downstream fall as the pressure of the water keeps pushing you against the car.
This means the brother has some significant water experience.
Okay, here's how I'd do it in this situation. First the shoes go, although save the laces if the shoes have them. Strip down to the shorts, and rip the shirts in half. Tie them together, with the pants. You've now got a short length of rope. Nothing great, but better then nothing. Tie one end around waist of younger brother, with plan being for the older brother to pull the younger.
Have older brother with a definite destination in mind, such as a tree floating by. Have him have to push his brother into the water, and then jumping in after him, holding onto the other length of the cloth rope. He can drop his hold on his brother through cold, being banged, or almost drowning himself.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
It's not so much about how many days it's been raining, but how much rain per hour/day.
Any predictable likelihood of the low portions of a road flooding, and the road will be closed. You need to understand the difference between a flash flood and regular flooding. A flash flood is a massive wall of water, raising water levels in a matter of minutes. Other then in the southwest, flash floods are caused by the sudden release of water due to something like a dam failure. In a flash flood situation, you're just going to go. You need to see a video of the initial flood, not the after effect to understand the force. In this situation, the car will go right with the water.
But in the situation you're describing, the water level on the road will rise steadily, but somewhat slowly. There's not much lateral force against the car. It typically arises from driving onto a section of road that is flooded, and underestimating the depth of the flooding. You get into a foot or so of water, and then your engine stalls.
Which implies they didn't bring anything with them.
From 50 feet, I can throw a line. Put the rescue boat a lot further away or get rid of it. Fifty feet below the car and they won't sink before they get to the boat. Fifty feet above the car and you do a quick run around the car and a hook. Still pretty likely to find both brothers.
This is going to give the brother some time to work in. Have him watching for logs that might work. Having the other brother being willing to go, then not, would be good technique.
No, they lose their balance and fall. Likely to be some scraping against the car. Upstream fall is more dangerous then a downstream fall as the pressure of the water keeps pushing you against the car.
This means the brother has some significant water experience.
Okay, here's how I'd do it in this situation. First the shoes go, although save the laces if the shoes have them. Strip down to the shorts, and rip the shirts in half. Tie them together, with the pants. You've now got a short length of rope. Nothing great, but better then nothing. Tie one end around waist of younger brother, with plan being for the older brother to pull the younger.
Have older brother with a definite destination in mind, such as a tree floating by. Have him have to push his brother into the water, and then jumping in after him, holding onto the other length of the cloth rope. He can drop his hold on his brother through cold, being banged, or almost drowning himself.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
Yeah, it sucks as a solution, but with what she's given me to work with, it's the best I can come up with. No way should the younger brother be let into the water without some way to secure him.
I was out in my sailboat the other day and discovered the high winds had let someone's boat go for a ride without the owner. It was beginning to pile on some rocks and there's no way I could get in with my boat without risking it. Ended up wading in water up to my neck dragging it to a safer location. Fifty yards and I was done for.
Fortunately that was far enough to find some sand to beach the boat on and another guy showed up with a power boat, so we were able to pull it off. Ended up getting way more exercise then I wanted.
Best of luck,
Jim Clark-Dawe
Not the same scenario but a group of us went swimming in the Caribbean many years ago. We found a tropical paradise beach -so we thought.
I paddled, then swam about four strokes parallel to the beach when I was stood about hip deep. I stopped, put my feet down and looked up. First, my feet didn't hit the bottom. When I surfaced, the beach was nowhere to be seen. During the movement of the swell I saw alternately the tops of palm trees, and the rest of our group lazing on the beach.
I headed beachwards, crawl stroke. ten strokes, then looked up- no nearer the beach. Forty yards at least.
I yelled and waved. Someone spotted me and I saw a couple of guys heading for the water. I floated. I can still remember the feeling of relief when I heard a voice and felt Ken's hand under my armpit when they reached me. He was a strong swimmer thank, God.
When the guys reached me they had dragged a lilo with them. I climbered onto it and they pulled it back to the beach. It took four guys to pull the raft the last six feet to the beach.
There was an undercurrent, and several other mates were far further out than I. One was swimming breaststroke.
To cut a long story short we all got out, but I take great care now if visiting a strange beach. I knew I was in a serious predicament - but no, my life didn't flash before my eyes. I was too busy working out what to do.
I paddled, then swam about four strokes parallel to the beach when I was stood about hip deep. I stopped, put my feet down and looked up. First, my feet didn't hit the bottom. When I surfaced, the beach was nowhere to be seen. During the movement of the swell I saw alternately the tops of palm trees, and the rest of our group lazing on the beach.
I headed beachwards, crawl stroke. ten strokes, then looked up- no nearer the beach. Forty yards at least.
I yelled and waved. Someone spotted me and I saw a couple of guys heading for the water. I floated. I can still remember the feeling of relief when I heard a voice and felt Ken's hand under my armpit when they reached me. He was a strong swimmer thank, God.
When the guys reached me they had dragged a lilo with them. I climbered onto it and they pulled it back to the beach. It took four guys to pull the raft the last six feet to the beach.
There was an undercurrent, and several other mates were far further out than I. One was swimming breaststroke.
To cut a long story short we all got out, but I take great care now if visiting a strange beach. I knew I was in a serious predicament - but no, my life didn't flash before my eyes. I was too busy working out what to do.
When I did some lifeguard training (many moons ago) we were taught that if that starts to happen to us, to swim down rather than trying to get away, as then the drowning person can't cling anymore without getting pulled under. Apparently it's quite common.
This was my thought as well. Swim down if they pull you under and come up behind them. The only issue though would be that they're in a raging river so it may be hard to come up directly behind.
However, since they are in a river it may be easier to just make the initial approach from behind. I don't know if it's a fact but unless I know there's someone behind me I feel like I'd probably be looking downstream in the direction that I'm being swept.