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Tanydwr
05-26-2013, 08:38 PM
Can anyone translate 'frozen birthplace' into Welsh for me? Doesn't have to be modern Welsh, it could be Old or Medieval/Middle Welsh if that is at hand. Essentially, I need it for the name of the wild northern wastelands where one of the peoples of my fictional universe originated. It has other names: the Wildlands of the North, the Northern Wilderness, the Winterlands, the Frozen Lands, and the Lands of Ever-Winter (the last is a poetic misnomer, as there are visible differences between summer and winter). People do still live in those lands, but it is a much harder life, and there are several joined volcanic ranges of mountains that now separate Cadaln, Kollacuinn, Kirrild, etc. from the Northern Wilderness.

Help very much appreciated - I'm afraid all my Welsh comes from dictionaries and a few bits learnt as a kid.

Thanks!

Raindrop
05-26-2013, 09:04 PM
Give me an hour, I'm on it!

King Neptune
05-26-2013, 09:47 PM
The online translators have trouble with that. Two came up with "man geni wedi'u rhewi", but that translates into English as "mole frozen".

genedigaeth is birthplace, but I couldn't find the participle form of freeze, but freeze is fferru, nor do I know much about Welsh grammar, except that Gaelic is supposed to be closely related to Latin (except the spelling).

Raindrop
05-26-2013, 10:40 PM
I get rhewedig for frozen. Genedigaeth rhewedig, maybe?
The Welsh forum I'm on is a tad quiet at the moment. I haven't had a reply yet.

ClareGreen
05-26-2013, 10:53 PM
...nor do I know much about Welsh grammar, except that Gaelic is supposed to be closely related to Latin (except the spelling).

Welsh is not Gaelic, and Gaelic is not Welsh. They're two separate languages, and have been for a very long time.

Welsh does have a lot of Latin-root loanwords, such as 'llyfr' (book), but it also has things like 'ambiwlans' (ambulance), so it's not just Latin that's been acquired over the millenia.

I'm afraid my Welsh isn't even close to good enough to help the OP, but my impression is that Welsh is a more poetic language than English. This may have been based more on those I've met who spoke it, though, rather than the reality.

Good luck, OP!

Raindrop
05-26-2013, 11:52 PM
Leaning towards "man geni rhewedig" now... with maybe a "wedi" thrown in... Man geni rhewedig looks right to me, but my grammar is non-existent. I'll keep asking.

Medievalist
05-26-2013, 11:54 PM
The online translators have trouble with that. Two came up with "man geni wedi'u rhewi", but that translates into English as "mole frozen".

genedigaeth is birthplace, but I couldn't find the participle form of freeze, but freeze is fferru, nor do I know much about Welsh grammar, except that Gaelic is supposed to be closely related to Latin (except the spelling).

No; it goes like this.

I.E. languages are divided into a bunch of sub-groups, like Germanic and Celtic.

Celtic is divided into Continental (Gaulish, Lepontic, Iberian Celtic, etc. all dead languages) Goidelic (Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish and Breton).

I'll look for a non-borrowed form of frozen; fferu is a Latin derivative.

You might have to settle for cold or icy rather than frozen.

There's a place on Cader Idris that has a similar name, but damned if I can remember it.

I'd ask on Welsh-L where you have native speakers, philologists and linguists:

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/liosta/welsh-l/

King Neptune
05-27-2013, 12:34 AM
Welsh is not Gaelic, and Gaelic is not Welsh. They're two separate languages, and have been for a very long time.

Welsh does have a lot of Latin-root loanwords, such as 'llyfr' (book), but it also has things like 'ambiwlans' (ambulance), so it's not just Latin that's been acquired over the millenia.

I'm afraid my Welsh isn't even close to good enough to help the OP, but my impression is that Welsh is a more poetic language than English. This may have been based more on those I've met who spoke it, though, rather than the reality.

Good luck, OP!


Gaelic is the language of the Gaels, which is another term for those who are known as Celts. The Welsh are Celts and Gaels. Their language ais one of the several varieties of Gaelic.

Perhaps this article will clarify it for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language

ClareGreen
05-27-2013, 01:12 AM
All Gaels are Celts, but not all Celts are Gaels. They are not interchangeable terms, and not all people of Celtic descent are of Gaelic-speaking descent.

Listen to the Medievalist, and if you must quote wikipages, please quote ones that support your point, such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages

Raindrop
05-27-2013, 11:11 PM
Tanydwr, would you mind if I quoted your original post in the other forum I belong to? The Welsh speakers there would like to have more context, to make sure the translation is correct.
So far, man geni wedi rhewi (colloquial) and man geni rhewedig (formal... I have a feeling this one would work better, for naming a place...) both look correct, as I understand it, but they'd really like to get some background info.

Tanydwr
06-02-2013, 05:13 PM
Tanydwr, would you mind if I quoted your original post in the other forum I belong to? The Welsh speakers there would like to have more context, to make sure the translation is correct.
So far, man geni wedi rhewi (colloquial) and man geni rhewedig (formal... I have a feeling this one would work better, for naming a place...) both look correct, as I understand it, but they'd really like to get some background info.

Hi Raindrop - go ahead, absolutely! I would rather have something accurate, if possible, although I work on the basis that if there are differences to real Welsh, it can be argued that it's the result of languages forming differently in this universe. For example, the influence of Latin and Italic languages is much reduced because they are spoken on the southern continent - close enough for trading words and the odd term to come through, but not, for example, to have the same effect on words for law and order, etc. In fact, the Welsh speakers are technically the conquerors in their land! Welsh (High Cadaln) is the tongue of law, while English (Cadaln Hædarish) is the tongue of trade, since most of their neighbours speak Germanic tongues (those that don't also speak 'northern tongues' that originates in the Northern Wilderness - i.e. Celtic tongues).

Thank you so much for your help!

Medievalist
06-02-2013, 09:51 PM
Gaelic is the language of the Gaels, which is another term for those who are known as Celts. The Welsh are Celts and Gaels. Their language ais one of the several varieties of Gaelic.

Perhaps this article will clarify it for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language

That article doesn't say what you think it does, dude. The Welsh are not Gaels; Gael = Gaelic speaking.

The definitions of Celt (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Celt&submit.x=16&submit.y=27) and Gael (http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=Gael&submit.x=50&submit.y=22) make that very clear.

As noted, all Gaels are Celts; not all Celts are Gaels, and the Welsh while Celtic is not Gaelic. Nor are the Welsh Gaels, though they are Celts.